On 2007-09-24 05:23:11 -0700, Dan Logcher said:

That recipe sounds rather excessive to me.. I had thought tako was par-boiled
for 2 minutes or so. Not close to 2 hours. But maybe Morimotu knows some
secret to it.

I thought "simmering" and "boiling" were different things. Simmering
things, even for a long while, isn't the same thing as boiling them at
full throttle for a minute or two.
--
///---

On 2007-09-24 06:07:27 -0700, "James Silverton"
said:

Interesting! I must look out for it tho' I don't think I've ever seen
the term "Nama Daiko". I was also most intrigued by the picture in
Maramatu Morimotu's book of a large diakon actually being used for
tenderizing!

Always wise to watch your p's and q's in a foreign language. Or in this
case your vowels. It's "nama dako", not "nama daiko".

Who knows what you'd get....!
--
///---

Gerry wrote on Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:55:17 -0700:

?? Interesting! I must look out for it tho' I don't think
?? I've ever seen the term "Nama Daiko". I was also most
?? intrigued by the picture in Maramatu Morimotu's book of a
?? large diakon actually being used for tenderizing!

G Always wise to watch your p's and q's in a foreign language.
G Or in this case your vowels. It's "nama dako", not "nama
G daiko".

G Who knows what you'd get....!

If I try to order it in the *US*, I won't mind being politely
told I am not pronouncing the name for octopus correctly but I
won't return if they pretend not to understand some English.
There is very little possibility that somone could pass off
something else as octopus. I have little patience for experts
using jargon and flattering someone who I am paying! This
sometimes seems to be the attitude of some people (not you!)

Incidentally, simmering is not much different in temperature
from boiling and I refuse to believe that at most 5 degrees
makes much difference. Now, if you referred to "poaching" where
the liquid does not actually boil, I would have to agree.


James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

"Musashi" wrote:
"James Silverton" wrote in message
[ . . . ]
Yes, Tako is neither raw nor a fish.
Traditionally it is used boiled.
That said, in some of the top Japanese restaurants you may find actual
"raw" tako.
Both Hatsuhana and Sushiden in Manhattan
often have this. Usually it's served as "Nama Dako" (raw tako) a sashimi
appetizer.

"If something is only par-boiled after an hour and a half, I hate
to think how much jaw exercise I'd get eating it raw! :-)"

Contrary to what you might expect, in raw form
Tako is very tender and nothing like when cooked.

It's been my experience that squid and octopus are tender if cooked less
than two minutes or more than two hours.

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !
~Semper Fi~

On 2007-09-24 08:30:22 -0700, "Musashi" said:

Yes at a sushi counter you will find Akagai, Aoyagi, Torigai, Mirugai, etc
all in raw form. I think that surf clam is probably mirugai or geoduck.

Nope. I get frequenctly in SoCal and they are explicitly not mirugai.
They have a very distinctive look to them with a pink point of sorts.
It looks vaguely triangular. I found a picture, which though it looks
a little skewed to red rather than pink is close enough:

http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/...79752668XPISTZ
--
///---

On 2007-09-24 11:37:19 -0700, "James Silverton"
said:

G Always wise to watch your p's and q's in a foreign language.
G Or in this case your vowels. It's "nama dako", not "nama
G daiko".

G Who knows what you'd get....!

If I try to order it in the *US*, I won't mind being politely told I am
not pronouncing the name for octopus correctly but I won't return if
they pretend not to understand some English.

I don't know what nama daiko is, but if it's something other than raw
octopus, then you'll be looking at it on your plate. That's what's
meant by "Who knows what you'll get." On the other hand you can return
because you got exactly what you ordered.

There is very little possibility that somone could pass off something
else as octopus. I have little patience for experts using jargon and
flattering someone who I am paying! This sometimes seems to be the
attitude of some people (not you!)

You're taking a direction I didn't predict and can't even really
follow. But it sounds really bad.

Incidentally, simmering is not much different in temperature from
boiling and I refuse to believe that at most 5 degrees makes much
difference. Now, if you referred to "poaching" where the liquid does
not actually boil, I would have to agree.

I'm not an advanced cook, but I know some sauces, soups and other foods
shouldn't be boiled, but should be simmered. So whatever the minor
difference is, I can't say it doesn't apply to tako.

And now, tippy-toeing out of the room...
--
///---

Gerry wrote on Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:09:44 -0700:


G You're taking a direction I didn't predict and can't even
G really follow. But it sounds really bad.

?? Incidentally, simmering is not much different in
?? temperature from boiling and I refuse to believe that at
?? most 5 degrees makes much difference. Now, if you referred
?? to "poaching" where the liquid does not actually boil, I
?? would have to agree.

G I'm not an advanced cook, but I know some sauces, soups and
G other foods shouldn't be boiled, but should be simmered. So
G whatever the minor difference is, I can't say it doesn't
G apply to tako.

Let's stay away from correcting each other, especially about
mistyping something from another poster, which can lead to bad
tempered exchanges, sorry! I don't consider myself an advanced
cook either and it is a practice where not all terms are well
defined. I'm just interested in the supposed changes in sea
food on cooking. Despite what I had read previously, it is
possible that long cooking does not tenderize octopus and it is
only the bashing with a mallet (or a daikon) that is important

However, I recently tested a roasting thermometer by immersing
it in "boiling" water, ie a turbulent liquid with large bubbles
so I just now repeated the experiment. I reduced the heat so
that small bubbles were coming up, which is what I would call
"simmering" and the indicated temperature dropped at most 2 F
degrees. If I turned down the heat so that the bubbling stopped
completely, "poaching", the temperature did drop. It was hard to
decide the amount but most poaching is done for a short time
after raising the liquid to an initial boil.

There are other cooking terms that are ill defined too,
"blanching" being one. I understand it as throwing vegetables
into boiling water and removing them into ice water immediately
the water boils again (sometimes used to sterilize bean
sprouts.) Others extend the boiling for a minute or two but
still call it blanching.



James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

"Gerry" wrote in message
news:2007092415065650073-somewhere@sunnycalif...
On 2007-09-24 08:30:22 -0700, "Musashi" said:

Yes at a sushi counter you will find Akagai, Aoyagi, Torigai, Mirugai,
etc
all in raw form. I think that surf clam is probably mirugai or geoduck.

Nope. I get frequenctly in SoCal and they are explicitly not mirugai.
They have a very distinctive look to them with a pink point of sorts.
It looks vaguely triangular. I found a picture, which though it looks
a little skewed to red rather than pink is close enough:

http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/...79752668XPISTZ
--


Ahh...that's Hokkigai. Sometimes called Hokkyokugai.
I use that when making Nuta sometimes instead of Tako.
Yes you're right that's called Surf Clam.
Amazingly harvested in Canada and shipped to China where processed, boxed
and frozen and sent back to
the US.

"James Silverton" wrote in message
news:M7XJi.4786$f%1.3531@trnddc01...
Gerry wrote on Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:09:44 -0700:


G You're taking a direction I didn't predict and can't even
G really follow. But it sounds really bad.

?? Incidentally, simmering is not much different in
?? temperature from boiling and I refuse to believe that at
?? most 5 degrees makes much difference. Now, if you referred
?? to "poaching" where the liquid does not actually boil, I
?? would have to agree.

G I'm not an advanced cook, but I know some sauces, soups and
G other foods shouldn't be boiled, but should be simmered. So
G whatever the minor difference is, I can't say it doesn't
G apply to tako.

Let's stay away from correcting each other, especially about
mistyping something from another poster, which can lead to bad
tempered exchanges, sorry! I don't consider myself an advanced
cook either and it is a practice where not all terms are well
defined. I'm just interested in the supposed changes in sea
food on cooking. Despite what I had read previously, it is
possible that long cooking does not tenderize octopus and it is
only the bashing with a mallet (or a daikon) that is important


I've watched Greek fishermen in the Aegean smashing Octopus on the rocks
to tenderize them. It certainly works as the grilled Oktopothi there is
extremely tender.
I 've seen a method in southern Italy where the octopus is dropped in
boiling(I think, not sure)
and pulled out quickly, and this is repeated several times as a means of
keeping it tender.
There was a word for it but I've forgotten.
M

On 2007-09-24 16:03:07 -0700, "Musashi" said:

Ahh...that's Hokkigai. Sometimes called Hokkyokugai.
I use that when making Nuta sometimes instead of Tako.
Yes you're right that's called Surf Clam.
Amazingly harvested in Canada and shipped to China where processed, boxed
and frozen and sent back to the US.

With undoubtedly a 35% bump in price. Well isn't that a convenience.
--
///---

On Sep 23, 5:08 pm, "James Silverton"
wrote:
Hello, All!

I picked up a book by Masahara Morimotu (owner of restaurants in
NYC and Philadelphia) in Borders today . He gave directions for
preparing octopus for sashimi. This involves rubbing with rock
salt to get rid of the slime that coats it, beating to tenderize
("traditionally with a large diakon"!), and simmering in dashi
for 1 1/2 hours! It's not raw fish!

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

I can only assume that this is a good preparation for FRESH octopus.
Since I cannot find the fresh product up here in New England, I am
forced to use frozen. My preparation gives excellent results, and the
octopus I buy typically runs about 4-5 lbs. About the only thing that
needs to be removed is the beak, the viscera are usually taken out
before freezing. Always buy a frozen octopus, this reduces the chance
of spoilage.

1. Put on a pot of water, about a gallon, and add a good sized piece
of kombu and about 2 oz of sea salt. Bring to a boil.
2. Thaw octopus in cold water, then drain well.
3. Knead the octopus with a large amount of fresh grated/chopped
daikon radish and sea salt. What this does is to clean off any slime,
and it also tightens the skin up just a bit. While doing that, turn
the head inside out and check for any leftover viscera. Remove any
that's found, then return the head sac to it's correct shape.
4. Using a fork, dunk the octopus into the boiling water a few times
untill the tentacles curl up. Lower the heat a bit, and then simmer
the octopus for about 5-10 minutes. After that turn the heat off and
cover the pot.
5. Let the octopus cool in the liquid for at least an hour, then into
the fridge the whole thing goes. Overnight is great if you can manage
it, it's the slow cooling that tenderizes it.Take it out of the water
and let it dry a bit. Slice, then serve as you like.

You'll probably find the skin around the head to be very tough. This
skin is better off discarded. The very top of the tentacles where they
conjoin into the head will probably also have a gelatinous layer right
under the skin that's not too edible either. Hope this helps anyone
who would like to cook one up.

Jim S.

I think that Mediterranean cooking does a much better job with octopus
and squid than does Asian cooking - tenderizing and slow cooking vs.
stir-frying and parboiled raw. I do not like octopus sushi. I have
never had any that I liked. It always tastes like rubber, tenderized
rubber at its best, but still rubber.

On 2007-09-25 22:38:57 -0700, said:

I think that Mediterranean cooking does a much better job with octopus
and squid than does Asian cooking - tenderizing and slow cooking vs.
stir-frying and parboiled raw. I do not like octopus sushi. I have
never had any that I liked. It always tastes like rubber, tenderized
rubber at its best, but still rubber.

I alwasy like it done by my favorite chefs. In most catch-as-catch-can
joints the hamachi will be good, and the toro good, and many others.
But tako and saba aren't always sure bets, that's for sure.
--
///---

wrote in message
ups.com...
I think that Mediterranean cooking does a much better job with octopus
and squid than does Asian cooking - tenderizing and slow cooking vs.
stir-frying and parboiled raw. I do not like octopus sushi. I have
never had any that I liked. It always tastes like rubber, tenderized
rubber at its best, but still rubber.


I tend to agree with you. Mediterranean styles, and I've had Spanish and
Portugese octopus as well, do focus
on making it tender. Japanese cuisine relies on boiling which keeps it
rubbery. And Chinese cuisine using the wok applies high heat so again it
ends up rubbery.
M

parrotheada1a wrote:
On Sep 23, 5:08 pm, "James Silverton"
wrote:
Hello, All!

I picked up a book by Masahara Morimotu (owner of restaurants in
NYC and Philadelphia) in Borders today . He gave directions for
preparing octopus for sashimi. This involves rubbing with rock
salt to get rid of the slime that coats it, beating to tenderize
("traditionally with a large diakon"!), and simmering in dashi
for 1 1/2 hours! It's not raw fish!

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

I can only assume that this is a good preparation for FRESH octopus.
Since I cannot find the fresh product up here in New England, I am
forced to use frozen. My preparation gives excellent results, and the
octopus I buy typically runs about 4-5 lbs. About the only thing that
needs to be removed is the beak, the viscera are usually taken out
before freezing. Always buy a frozen octopus, this reduces the chance
of spoilage.

1. Put on a pot of water, about a gallon, and add a good sized piece
of kombu and about 2 oz of sea salt. Bring to a boil.
2. Thaw octopus in cold water, then drain well.
3. Knead the octopus with a large amount of fresh grated/chopped
daikon radish and sea salt. What this does is to clean off any slime,
and it also tightens the skin up just a bit. While doing that, turn
the head inside out and check for any leftover viscera. Remove any
that's found, then return the head sac to it's correct shape.
4. Using a fork, dunk the octopus into the boiling water a few times
untill the tentacles curl up. Lower the heat a bit, and then simmer
the octopus for about 5-10 minutes. After that turn the heat off and
cover the pot.
5. Let the octopus cool in the liquid for at least an hour, then into
the fridge the whole thing goes. Overnight is great if you can manage
it, it's the slow cooling that tenderizes it.Take it out of the water
and let it dry a bit. Slice, then serve as you like.

You'll probably find the skin around the head to be very tough. This
skin is better off discarded. The very top of the tentacles where they
conjoin into the head will probably also have a gelatinous layer right
under the skin that's not too edible either. Hope this helps anyone
who would like to cook one up.

Jim S.



Hi Jim, do you mind if I add this to the recipe section on sushifaq.com?

-Warren

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