What is the secret in getting a hard crust?

"jim" wrote in message
...
What is the secret in getting a hard crust?



steam. i take my broiler pan that cam with the oven, and use the bottom
portion and pour 1-2 cups of boiling water in my preheated oven. i also
spray the bread and oven just as i put the dough in. every 3-5 min is also
spray the oven again. some ovens do a better job of steam conversion. my
dad has a ge oven that has a left top vent, and it creates great steam. my
oven doesn't do as good a job, but still works. my temp is usually 450 for
20 min and 400 for 25 min.

dan w

dan w wrote:
"jim" wrote in message
...
What is the secret in getting a hard crust?



steam. i take my broiler pan that cam with the oven, and use the bottom
portion and pour 1-2 cups of boiling water in my preheated oven. i also
spray the bread and oven just as i put the dough in. every 3-5 min is also
spray the oven again. some ovens do a better job of steam conversion. my
dad has a ge oven that has a left top vent, and it creates great steam. my
oven doesn't do as good a job, but still works. my temp is usually 450 for
20 min and 400 for 25 min.

Could you share why you believe steam creates a hard crust?

I've been getting what I would call a hard crust with no steam whatever
and cold oven. Maybe my hard crust isn't relatively hard at all.

"Hans Fugal" wrote in message
...
dan w wrote:
"jim" wrote in message
...
What is the secret in getting a hard crust?



steam. i take my broiler pan that cam with the oven, and use the bottom
portion and pour 1-2 cups of boiling water in my preheated oven. i also
spray the bread and oven just as i put the dough in. every 3-5 min is
also
spray the oven again. some ovens do a better job of steam conversion.
my
dad has a ge oven that has a left top vent, and it creates great steam.
my
oven doesn't do as good a job, but still works. my temp is usually 450
for
20 min and 400 for 25 min.

Could you share why you believe steam creates a hard crust?

I've been getting what I would call a hard crust with no steam whatever
and cold oven. Maybe my hard crust isn't relatively hard at all.

i only know what the experts tell me, and what works for me. there may be
other methods, but i don't know them. perhaps one of them (experts) will
take pity on us and chime in

dan w

dan w wrote:
"Hans Fugal" wrote in message
...
dan w wrote:
"jim" wrote in message
...
......
take pity on us and chime in

dan w

HI, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't bother spraying at all,
I've tried it, I've even tried the hot griddle pan and a cup of water
at the bottom. Bit it doesn't seem to make much difference. I'm not
saying it doesn't make any difference, just not much difference.

See, the thing is about getting results from method A, unless you
really test it properly, and that's not easy in a domestic kitchen
who's to say that you didn't get result a from doing something else?
There are loads of variables when baking. I got big improvements when I
got the initial temp of the oven above 450F and got the internal temp
of the crumb to between 93-97C. Sorry about the Mixed bag of temps
they're just abstract numbers I se on my thermometers. : -)

It's like hanging garlic bulbs at the windows to keep away the
vampires, then in the morning when no vampires show saying, the garlic
worked. : -)

Anyway that's two penneth. In my oven that's the case.

TG

"dan w" wrote in message
. ..

i only know what the experts tell me, and what works for me. there may be
other methods, but i don't know them. perhaps one of them (experts) will
take pity on us and chime in

Well, here are some things to learn from the experts:

1. Getting the bread surface all soggy in the oven by infusing it
with moisture makes the crust hard.

2. Rising the dough in the refrigerator makes the bread taste
more sour.

3. A sour (tangy) starter makes the best (sourest) bread.

4. Souring a sponge for days is good, too.

5. Your mail-order dry start might take five days to revive.

6. Given enough time, the dough will knead itself sufficiently.

7. The more the dough is punched, the better the bread.

This is but a partial list. I entreat the experts to send further advice
to my email so that I can tabulate and publish it.

I am not qualified as an expert, but I am not stupid either. Writing
with capital letters, it is hoped, may enhance my credibility.

--
Dicky
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com

Now the big question: Do you agree with any of those things? Or, were
you being sarcastic? OR sincere? I seem to think that the methods you
regularly use are different or opposed to those which you have listed.

Trix wrote:

Now the big question: Do you agree with any of those things? Or, were
you being sarcastic? OR sincere? I seem to think that the methods you
regularly use are different or opposed to those which you have listed.

I would ponder Barnum's Dictum about how many what are born how often.

B/

does anyone with experience (forget experts), wan't to seriously reply?

dan w

"Brian Mailman" wrote in message
...
Trix wrote:

Now the big question: Do you agree with any of those things? Or, were
you being sarcastic? OR sincere? I seem to think that the methods you
regularly use are different or opposed to those which you have listed.

I would ponder Barnum's Dictum about how many what are born how often.

B/

dan w wrote:

does anyone with experience (forget experts), wan't to seriously
reply?

OK, I believe he wasn't serious. Except maybe about the capital letters.

B/

Dicky Adams wrote:

"Well, here are some things to learn from the experts:"

Not ANYWHERE'S near an expert , I haven't been doing this anywhere near long
enough to convincingly match wits with any of the resident sourdough
legends, but long enough to know allot of what Dick wrote is intentional
folly. Seeing as nobody else wanted to take the bait, I offer my own
responces for Mr Adam's amusement.

"1. Getting the bread surface all soggy in the oven by infusing it
with moisture makes the crust hard."

Actually, the steam thing as far as I know helps keep the dough surface from
drying out too quickly, remaining elastic a little longer hopefully enough
to withstand the stretching of oven spring. It doesn't give me a hard crust,
actually my crust softens a bit after baking this way, during cooling. I
have read that this can be avoided by cooling in the still warm oven after
baking with the door open a bit. Keeping in plastic wrap makes the crust
soft, my parents loaves go in plastic bags for this reason. My own I keep
unwrapped or at least in paper bags, if I want a nice hard crust.

"2. Rising the dough in the refrigerator makes the bread taste
more sour."

Is this what people say? I fridge retard my dough for convenience, and have
never ever found it to create a more sour bread. Perhaps even the opposite
may be true.

"3. A sour (tangy) starter makes the best (sourest) bread."

I have found Carl's to be about the blandest starter so far, and yet many
experts here claim to make quite sour bread with it, I believe Samartha has
documented results somewhere, so I would probably say that this is false.
I wouldn't know, I don't really go for sourest.

"4. Souring a sponge for days is good, too."

Depends what "good" you are trying to accomplish. Dick is certainly the
champion of skyscraper-like loftiness in his sourdough loaves, one would be
hard pressed to come anywhere close with "spent" dough. But then there can
be flavors and crust/crumb textures to explore that you may find just as
elusive with a "young" sponge.

"5. Your mail-order dry start might take five days to revive."

The only dried starter I have received in the mail was Carl's OT. It was
bubbling within the first day. That is just my one experience, but I think
that 5 days is a long time. More than long enough in fact, for a resident
culture already present in your flour to show itself, any mail order stuff
may never have surfaced at all.

"6. Given enough time, the dough will knead itself sufficiently."

Ah yes, the "no knead" technique. I don't know well how this works for
Dicky's loaf pan breads. Seems to work for "hearth" types. Remember
everything still has to get mixed together sufficiently though, and stretch
and folds are down the road too. I still think it all adds up to a little
kneading, just differently.

"7. The more the dough is punched, the better the bread."

Dick, who punches down sourdough bread anymore? If I have been here
bothering everybody for a year, I haven't read a single post recommending
punch downs. Perhaps you are watching Julia Child reruns on the side. Bon
Appetite!

hutchndi

hutchndi wrote:
Dicky Adams wrote:

"Well, here are some things to learn from the experts:"

Not ANYWHERE'S near an expert ..
Dick, who punches down sourdough bread anymore? If I have been here
bothering everybody for a year, I haven't read a single post recommending
punch downs. Perhaps you are watching Julia Child reruns on the side. Bon
Appetite!

hutchndi

Come on Hutch, you know not to take anything seriously that old Grizzly
writes or at least not before reversing the meaning. The only thing
sour about Mr Adams is his rhetoric.

TG

Trix wrote:
Now the big question: Do you agree with any of those things? Or, were
you being sarcastic? OR sincere? I seem to think that the methods you
regularly use are different or opposed to those which you have listed.

Trix, I don't know if you changed the subject line but your post
doesn't appear in the Google site with the rest of the thread. All we
have is your quote from others.

TG

I thought better of it and deleted it. I guess it got quoted just
before I deleted it.
Oh well.

I know that some people recommend some to the techniques listed. I also
suspect, after reading his Billowy Bread recipe as well as other posts
that Dickie Adams is not one that uses any of those techniques or
agrees with their use.

TG wrote:

Come on Hutch, you know not to take anything seriously that old Grizzly
writes or at least not before reversing the meaning. The only thing
sour about Mr Adams is his rhetoric.

can nobody imagine that dicky is having fun? i enjoyed that post.

to add some favorites...

the importance of micro-waving starter to keep it warm.

the importance of wooden utensils, particularly chopsticks.

the importance of volumetric measuring with old cans.

the importance of a well designed faerie shrine.

the importance of margarine...

will