Kenneth said in the earlier "The 'No-Knead' technique" post about gluten
formation:

The third is "formation by hydration." If you take wheat flour and mix it
with water, the process of growth of gluten strands starts. As the flour
becomes more fully hydrated over time, the strands grow further.

Kenneth, is this same thing that Glezer refers to in her book "Artisan
Baking" as "autolyse"? She states on page 12 (quoted directly from the
book):

"AUTOLYSE, a.k.a. RESTING

The term "autolyse" (pronounced AUTO-lees and used as both noun and verb)
was adopted by Professor Raymond Clavel, the esteemed French bread-baking
teacher and inventor of this somewhat odd but very effective technique.
During the rest time, the flour fully hydrates and its gluten further
develops, encouraged by the absence of: compressed yeast, which would begin
to ferment and acidify the dough (although instant yeast is included in
autolyses lasting no longer than 30 minutes because of its slow activation);
salt, which would cause the gluten to tighten, hindering its development and
hydration; and pre-ferments (see pages 101-107), which would also acidify
the dough. The flour's improved hydration and gluten development shorten the
mixing time, increase extensibility (the dough rips less during shaping),
and ultimately result in bread with a creamier colored crumb and more aroma
and sweet wheat flavor."

She goes on to say that after autolyse, the salt, yeast [yikes! - D_f_MO]
and pre-ferments are added directly to the dough and worked in...

I have been testing this method with my SD for quite a while now and it
really does make the bread creamier in color, it has a great aroma and
"seems" to work well for creating great SD bread. In my testing, I have been
experimenting with different ratios of the flour and water for the autolyse.
My goal was to get a good ratio of most of the flour and the water to create
a soft dough (for autolyse) and to add some of dough flour and the salt to
the starter to create another soft dough from it. Then after the autolyse
period, mixing and kneading the two different doughs together to form the
final dough for resting and rising.

Has anyone else experimented with autolyse?

Mike, in that earlier post you said at the end of your response to Jim,
"IM(ns)HO, there is little reason to use an autolyse with sourdough, as much
of the benefit of an autolyse is brought to the dough with a sourdough
starter. " Can you elaborate on this?

I am not sure how the starter would give the same results as an autolyse
because in my experience (and IMHO) the autolyse step I have been using
makes a huge difference in the resulting dough.

Denny
--
I can be reached by sending to "my posting name" at that free, Microsoft,
electronic mail service.

On 1/18/06, Denny_from_MO wrote:


Has anyone else experimented with autolyse?


Yes, I use it with a number of my yeasted breads.

Mike, in that earlier post you said at the end of your response to Jim,
"IM(ns)HO, there is little reason to use an autolyse with sourdough, as
much
of the benefit of an autolyse is brought to the dough with a sourdough
starter. " Can you elaborate on this?


Many of the techniques used by yeast bakers, such as biga, poolish,
autolyse, were developed to try to get back some of the taste lost when they
went to yeast from sourdough. Yes, the techniques do go back to the late
1800's. Bakers liked the speed and controlability of yeast, and that they
didn't need to keep feeding the stuff.

Another reason for biga and poolish is to reduce the cost of yeast - I can
make 20+ loaves with about 5 grams of yeast. That doesn't make a single
loaf of straight yeast bread. Bakers of yore were cheaper than bakers of
today, and even today many bakers are pretty cheap. (Of course, I also have
no idea how much yeast cost in the late 1800's.)

The elaboration of a sourdough culture allows a good part of the flour to be
worked slowly. I started feeding my cultures up on Friday for a bake that
will happen next thursday. A 6 day lead time. I also started with about 3
grams of starter and will build it to about 15,000 grams of starter (call it
30 lbs).

Using autolyse makes it easier to mix and knead dough. So does sourdough.

Using autolyse helps unlock the flavor of the wheat. So does sourdough.

Are there additional gains in using autolyse with sourdough? My experiments
never convinced me that the results were worth the effort.

Mike