Hello.

What do you think about this techniqe? Why it works, and is it better?

http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...es/noknead.htm

On 15 Jan 2006 15:12:21 -0800, "VVizard"
wrote:

Hello.

What do you think about this techniqe? Why it works, and is it better?

http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...es/noknead.htm

Howdy,

Gluten is needed if wheat flour breads are to be able to
hold the gas generated by the leavening agent.

Gluten molecules are long chains, and can be formed three
ways:

The most familiar to many folks is "mechanical formation" or
"kneading."

People are also likely to be familiar with "chemical
formation." (If in doubt, just read the list of ingredients
in the typical super market loaf.)

The third is "formation by hydration." If you take wheat
flour and mix it with water, the process of growth of gluten
strands starts. As the flour becomes more fully hydrated
over time, the strands grow further.

If you mix up a dough only to the point that there are no
dry pockets of flour, and then put it in the refrigerator,
sufficient gluten will form to allow baking with no kneading
whatever.

In my experience, this is a good way to produce a loaf with
a very coarse crumb, that is with "big holes."

Give it a try... It is interesting, and easy.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Wow that cool, My arms will thank you if this works that well. I don't
have a stand mixer, and well I don't even have a hand mixer, SO working
bread, pizza dough is what I use in place of the over priced health
clubs. lol

Kenneth, do you say that the procces described in the link is
"formation by hydration"? But there is no mentioning of adding
water in the procces.

On 16 Jan 2006 12:39:34 -0800, "VVizard"
wrote:

Kenneth, do you say that the procces described in the link is
"formation by hydration"? But there is no mentioning of adding
water in the procces.

Howdy,

I did not provide the link...

Everything I described was based upon the idea that one had
some dough that was ready to be kneaded.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Hello "VVizard" & all;

"VVizard" wrote in message
oups.com...
....
What do you think about this techniqe? Why it works, and is it
better?
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...es/noknead.htm

Well, it does work, and works quite well in fact.
http://www.innerlodge.com/pix/Bread/RyeL.JPG and
http://www.innerlodge.com/pix/Bread/RyeC.JPG were made with it.
I've made almost all of my breads using the "no-Knead" technique
("almost" only cuz I've not yet gotten to all of them...yet!).

Actually, you'll find many of the things we've been told over the
years, especially when it comes to crafts like baking, aren't all
that true. In order to keep this thread from degenerating into
another "Yes it does!", "No it doesn't!" thread, I won't elucidate
the other issues (at this time...(:-o)!).

Does kneading work for making bread? Sure! But it's probably more
therapeutic and customary than necessary.

So go ahead and try it. You might just end up liking it...

L8r all,
Dusty

oh no the police are back again.....

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"VVizard" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello.

What do you think about this techniqe? Why it works, and is it better?


It works. Its better because it works, and you dont have to, if that is what
you want. Sometimes I like kneading, if glopping and dropping wet sticky
dough can be called that, (once my hands are involved in the sticky mess and
it starts coming together getting smooth and shiny, I know I should stop but
its just so much fun) but never more than a few minutes.From what I
understand if you are going to do stretch and folds further on, you dont
want to develop the gluten too much right away.

hutchndi

VVizard wrote:

Kenneth, do you say that the procces described in the link is
"formation by hydration"? But there is no mentioning of adding
water in the procces.
HI,
Formation by hydration is just about adding water to the flour. If you
don't add the salt at that time too the flour will hydrate better. I've
done a small trial to test this idea. Adding the salt later rather than
at the time of mixing definitely affects the way the dough hydrates.
How that then affects how the bread tastes is a matter of opinion.

TG

Kenneth said:



The third is "formation by hydration." If you take wheat
flour and mix it with water, the process of growth of gluten
strands starts. As the flour becomes more fully hydrated
over time, the strands grow further.



Is this what Glezer refers to in Artisan Baking as "autolyse"?



She states on page 12 (quoted directly from the book):



"AUTOLYSE, a.k.a. RESTING



The term "autolyse" (pronounced AUTO-lees and used as both noun and verb)
was adopted by Professor Raymond Clavel, the esteemed French bread-baking
teacher and inventor of this somewhat odd but very effective technique.
During the rest time, the flour fully hydrates and its gluten further
develops, encouraged by the absence of: compressed yeast, which would begin
to ferment and acidify the dough (although instant yeast is included in
autolyses lasting no longer than 30 minutes because of its slow activation);
salt, which would cause the gluten to tighten, hindering its development and
hydration; and pre-ferments (see pages 101-107), which would also acidify
the dough. The flour's improved hydration and gluten development shorten the
mixing time, increase extensibility (the dough rips less during shaping),
and ultimately result in bread with a creamier colored crumb and more aroma
and sweet wheat flavor."



She goes on to say that the salt, yeast [yikes! - D_f_MO] and pre-ferments
are added directly to the dough and worked in.



I have been testing this method with my SD for quite a while now and it
really does make the bread creamier in color, it has a great aroma and
"seems" to work well for creating great SD bread. In my testing, I have been
experimenting with different ratios of the flour and water for the autolyse.
My goal was to get a good ratio of most of the flour and the water to create
a soft dough (for autolyse) and to add some of dough flour and the salt to
the starter to create another soft dough from it. Then after the autolyse
period, mixing and kneading the two different doughs together to form the
final dough for resting and rising.



Has anyone else experimented with autolyse?



Denny

....apologies for the double-spacing... must have done something wrong to get
the reply so spread out...

D_f_MO

--
I can be reached by sending to "my posting name" at that free, Microsoft,
electronic mail service.
"Denny_from_MO" wrote in message
...
Kenneth said:



The third is "formation by hydration." If you take wheat
flour and mix it with water, the process of growth of gluten
strands starts. As the flour becomes more fully hydrated
over time, the strands grow further.



Is this what Glezer refers to in Artisan Baking as "autolyse"?



She states on page 12 (quoted directly from the book):



"AUTOLYSE, a.k.a. RESTING



The term "autolyse" (pronounced AUTO-lees and used as both noun and verb)
was adopted by Professor Raymond Clavel, the esteemed French bread-baking
teacher and inventor of this somewhat odd but very effective technique.
During the rest time, the flour fully hydrates and its gluten further
develops, encouraged by the absence of: compressed yeast, which would
begin to ferment and acidify the dough (although instant yeast is included
in autolyses lasting no longer than 30 minutes because of its slow
activation); salt, which would cause the gluten to tighten, hindering its
development and hydration; and pre-ferments (see pages 101-107), which
would also acidify the dough. The flour's improved hydration and gluten
development shorten the mixing time, increase extensibility (the dough
rips less during shaping), and ultimately result in bread with a creamier
colored crumb and more aroma and sweet wheat flavor."



She goes on to say that the salt, yeast [yikes! - D_f_MO] and pre-ferments
are added directly to the dough and worked in.



I have been testing this method with my SD for quite a while now and it
really does make the bread creamier in color, it has a great aroma and
"seems" to work well for creating great SD bread. In my testing, I have
been experimenting with different ratios of the flour and water for the
autolyse. My goal was to get a good ratio of most of the flour and the
water to create a soft dough (for autolyse) and to add some of dough flour
and the salt to the starter to create another soft dough from it. Then
after the autolyse period, mixing and kneading the two different doughs
together to form the final dough for resting and rising.



Has anyone else experimented with autolyse?



Denny

Yeah it should be in steps, Knead, Rest, Knead, Rest...Gluten's can't
be completely formed in one shot...You could do it the easy way, and
buy a stand mixer with a dough hook, or bread machine =).......but
beating up a lump of dough is fun at times.........lol

Denny_from_MO wrote:
Has anyone else experimented with autolyse?



Denny

I was introduced to autolyse by the book "Amy's Bread". In her book, she
just recommends letting the dough rest after an initial light kneading. I
let it sit for about fifteen minutes. I hadn't thought of it as a
substitute for kneading, but it makes sense. In that time, even a ropy,
stringy dough will get smoother all on its own. I use the time to clean out
my mixing bowls.

On 1/17/06, Jim wrote:

Denny_from_MO wrote:
Has anyone else experimented with autolyse?



Denny

I was introduced to autolyse by the book "Amy's Bread". In her book, she
just recommends letting the dough rest after an initial light kneading. I
let it sit for about fifteen minutes. I hadn't thought of it as a
substitute for kneading, but it makes sense. In that time, even a ropy,
stringy dough will get smoother all on its own. I use the time to clean
out
my mixing bowls.


Actually, that isn't an autolyse. An autolyse is just flour and water, and
sometime salt. The process is based on the enzymes in the flour being
activated by water. Autolyse is ready for use in about 30 minutes, can can
be help up to about 12 hours. If you are going to hold it for a while, salt
slows the process. An over-aged autolyse tends to turn grey and the bread
doesn't look as nice.

Yeast also acts upon dough and conditions it. When you use an autolyse, it
is usually easier to mix the resulting dough. IM(ns)HO, there is little
reason to use an autolyse with sourdough, as much of the benefit of an
autolyse is brought to the dough with a sourdough starter.

Mike

Mike,

I am confused... Did you read my first post (Denny_from_MO)? I didn't post
the below paragraph about "Amy's Bread", that was Jim.

My post was about "Artisan Baking" by Glezer. She does state that autolyse
is only flour and water (with the exception of her mention of "instant
yeast").

This is the technique I use and was wondering if anyone else uses autolyse
(flour and water only) in their sourdough bread making and what methods they
use compared to what I wrote about in that first post.

Denny
--
I can be reached by sending to "my posting name" at that free, Microsoft,
electronic mail service.
"Mike Avery" wrote in message
news:mailman.1.1137610142.77926.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
On 1/17/06, Jim wrote:

Denny_from_MO wrote:
Has anyone else experimented with autolyse?



Denny

I was introduced to autolyse by the book "Amy's Bread". In her book, she
just recommends letting the dough rest after an initial light kneading. I
let it sit for about fifteen minutes. I hadn't thought of it as a
substitute for kneading, but it makes sense. In that time, even a ropy,
stringy dough will get smoother all on its own. I use the time to clean
out
my mixing bowls.


Actually, that isn't an autolyse. An autolyse is just flour and water, and
sometime salt. The process is based on the enzymes in the flour being
activated by water. Autolyse is ready for use in about 30 minutes, can can
be help up to about 12 hours. If you are going to hold it for a while, salt
slows the process. An over-aged autolyse tends to turn grey and the bread
doesn't look as nice.

Yeast also acts upon dough and conditions it. When you use an autolyse, it
is usually easier to mix the resulting dough. IM(ns)HO, there is little
reason to use an autolyse with sourdough, as much of the benefit of an
autolyse is brought to the dough with a sourdough starter.

Mike