Good morning sourdough-ers. Question for you; how many of you have
created your sourdough culture from scratch - using naturally occurring
yeasts and bacteria?

I have been underwhelmed with so-called sourdoughs that use commercial
yeast, so i've got some dough started (now in it's second generation)
that I'm trying to allow to start naturally.

anyone have any positive or negative experiences doing such? Any tips?

"Ric" wrote in message ups.com...

... how many of you have created your sourdough culture from
scratch - using naturally occurring yeasts and bacteria? ...

... Any tips?

Well, you could read some FAQs. Browse some posts. Check the
Google archive.

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughqa.html

"Ric" wrote in message
ups.com...
Good morning sourdough-ers. Question for you; how many of you have
created your sourdough culture from scratch - using naturally
occurring
yeasts and bacteria?
I have. The results have been "hit-&-miss". By that I mean that
they mostly worked, but none ever had the taste results I sought.
Some posting here, most notably among them, Samarth, seem to have
near 100% success (but NEVER from "commercial yeast") getting viable
cultures. So either he's got the elements of SD success all dialed
in, or he's willing to settle for less. I suspect the former...

I have been underwhelmed with so-called sourdoughs that use
commercial
yeast, so i've got some dough started (now in it's second
generation)
that I'm trying to allow to start naturally.
Contrary to many popular myths, you CAN NOT get a proper "sourdough"
culture from commercial yeast or any of the other popular
adulterants so often proposed. That you 'may' get one is
happenstance, and certainly not to be ignored; but not something you
should count on it you're expecting company and plan on serving SD
bread.

A sourdough culture is a symbiotic mix wild yeasts and
lactobacillus. Hoping for a proper, working suite of these tiny
critters is akin to allowing a glass of grape juice to stand open,
while waiting for *that* yeast that will turn that juice into a
top-flight cabernet. Or leaving a wound open, hoping for a
penicillin spore to fall on it. Possible? Yes. Likely? Try it
and see...

anyone have any positive or negative experiences doing such? Any
tips?
Having become an moderately experienced SD baker, and having
suffered the trials and travails of trying my own and various other
SD generation methods, I *highly* recommend that SD newbie's DO NOT
start out by trying to generate their own culture. Spend the few
bux or ask someone here to send you some starter. Learn how to care
for it. Learn how to bake with it. Then, once so armed, then only
are you ready to venture out and grow your own...

But then again...that's only my opinion. Given the august
assemblage here...I'm sure my methods will have its vocal and
derisive detractors...(:-o)!


L8r all,
Dusty

I don't use commercial yeast to make a starter, but have no problem
with using Commercial yeast to help make my starter a little more
active once. Because you can never be 100% sure how active, your
starter will turn out each time you put it through a feeding. Keep the
commercial yeast as the insurance.
Ok I have researched, researched, researched and researched some more,
found that it depends BIG TIME on where you live. I live in Newport
News, VA and find that it takes around 3 days to get a good active
starter. Natural yeast will make a very distinct, and a much sourer
flavor than the commercial cousin will.
http://alaskatravelmagazine.com/2sou...ecipes-pf.html
Alaska magazine is source of my starter and it is about the best I've
used. I have had my starter for about 1 year and love it. The best
super simple Pancakes; 2cups starter, 2tbsp Sugar, 1 tsp Salt, 1 ½ tsp
Baking Soda, 2 eggs, (Insurance, 1 envelope dry yeast) MIX and you
have super simple, light and fluffy pancakes. AWESOME PANCAKES

Here is a little something I've found, take your starter out side as
much as possible. I mean setting on the porch is a great way to
introduce more wild yeast, but let it ride with you the store, park, or
mom's house and let it set with the windows down. I treat my starter
like a member of the family it's my pet. Strange maybe, but I can
turn out killer SD Pizza crust. Taking It out side makes a HUGE
DIFFERENCE in the activity.


Feel free to let me know how it turns out.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I don't use commercial yeast to make a starter, but have no problem
with using Commercial yeast to help make my starter a little more
active once. Because you can never be 100% sure how active, your
starter will turn out each time you put it through a feeding. Keep
the
commercial yeast as the insurance.
[I would respectively disagree with my friend "Chrismorris28". Once
stabilized, you can be sure of how your SD starter is going to
"work". Yes, things can go wrong. Yes, it's possible to get
different results. But if you'll work back along what you did,
you'll find that you've changed (intentionally or otherwise) some
other variable of how you treat/handle your starter or dough. Some
of my starters have been around for years, after being obtained from
folks that have had them for decades if not centuries. They always
continue to function the same way, and continue to make great bread.
And I NEVER resort to "helping" my bread with commercial yeasts! It
ain't needed. And if it is, you're doing something else "unhelpful"
to your dough or starter. Could be methods, could be material...]

Ok I have researched, researched, researched and researched some
more,
found that it depends BIG TIME on where you live. I live in Newport
[Perhaps. That location may play a part is certainly a factor.
However, the myth that your yeast comes from "the air" is just
that...a myth. If you get your flour from some mill in Montana, and
I get my flour from the same mill, the odds that you & I will
generate the same "flavor" of starter is nearly 100% (I say "nearly"
cuz chaos theory always allows for variations--translation, there
ain't no such thing as a sure thing...).]

News, VA and find that it takes around 3 days to get a good active
starter. Natural yeast will make a very distinct, and a much sourer
flavor than the commercial cousin will.
http://alaskatravelmagazine.com/2sou...ecipes-pf.html
Alaska magazine is source of my starter and it is about the best
I've
used. I have had my starter for about 1 year and love it. The best
super simple Pancakes; 2cups starter, 2tbsp Sugar, 1 tsp Salt, 1 ½
tsp
Baking Soda, 2 eggs, (Insurance, 1 envelope dry yeast) MIX and you
have super simple, light and fluffy pancakes. AWESOME PANCAKES
[Yep. Sounds like the same recipe that I use (makes a great use for
excess starter). I hope you enjoy it as much as we do...]

Here is a little something I've found, take your starter out side as
much as possible. I mean setting on the porch is a great way to
introduce more wild yeast, but let it ride with you the store, park,
or
[Nope. Not gonna help. While it's certainly possible for some
yeast spores to fall into it...it's just as likely that something
not so palatable will fall into it. The yeasts are delivered to you
by the grain. Any other source is just the "$hit-happens" of
life...]

mom's house and let it set with the windows down. I treat my starter
like a member of the family it's my pet. Strange maybe, but I can
turn out killer SD Pizza crust. Taking It out side makes a HUGE
DIFFERENCE in the activity.
[I'm sure you've made some great crusts--as have I. And my starter
is pretty well sedentary...(:-o)!]


[L8r all,
Dusty]


Feel free to let me know how it turns out.

On 9 Jan 2006 07:54:26 -0800, "Ric"
wrote:

Good morning sourdough-ers. Question for you; how many of you have
created your sourdough culture from scratch - using naturally occurring
yeasts and bacteria?

I have been underwhelmed with so-called sourdoughs that use commercial
yeast, so i've got some dough started (now in it's second generation)
that I'm trying to allow to start naturally.

anyone have any positive or negative experiences doing such? Any tips?

Hi Ric,

I have done it perhaps ten times, with a variety of grains,
and with good results on each occasion.

One tip I can offer:

Use tiny quantities of flour and water, (and add nothing
else.)

I mention that because there seems to be a tradition in the
baking literature of describing methods that yield oceans of
starter.

I will add that there is something very satisfying about
starting from scratch...

Here's my method -

Take a few teaspoons of any flour you choose (the fewer the
chemicals the better) and add to that, enough
(non-chlorinated) water to make a smooth paste. Mix that a
bit, and put it in a covered container in an area with a
temperature between 75 and 90F.

Leave it for 24 hours.

Toss out half the mixture, and add enough fresh flour and
water to get you back to about the volume you had at the
outset.

Put the mixture aside for another 24 hours, again at the
75-90 range of temperature.

Keep repeating the above.

After a few days, you will very likely notice some bubbles
forming, and then an increase in volume.

At that point, you will have a (very young, but usable)
starter. Continue the toss, and feed routine, but make it a
bit more frequent, on the order of every 12 hours or so.

Have fun with it!

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Thank you all for your very helpful posts.

Dusty; your summary was very consistent with my limited knowledge. I am
a home winemaker in Northern Cal, and have done a litte SD baking. I
was aware of the need for both the yeasts and the bacteria - one of the
stronger arguments for staying away from commercial baking yeasts.

What I have done thus far is very similar to what Kenneth describes
here. I used a very small amount of flour and water (my own well water,
non-chlorinated, flouridated, fornicated). I left that for three or
four day. Removed the 'rind', and added the small interior dough
(already showing signs of some kind of fermentation) to a new, slightly
bigger batch. That was yesterday. I will (tomorrow probably) do the
same again for a couple more generations, untl I get a large enough
batch that appears to be active, then will take a shot at baking with
it.

As for the 'where you live' suggestion (from Chris, I believe) - I live
in the Sierra Foothills of Northern Cal, and have an active vineyard &
winery on the property. Being right in the heart of a traditional
sourdough region, I'm crossing my fingers that there may indeed be some
good bugs floating around here. But as Dusty said, airborne yeasts and
bacteria are not the most likely source for the yeasts (although
possibly the lactobacillus) - the flour itself probably is.

If it doesn't work, I'll buy a batch from one of y'all. But I am hoping
to create my own and then nurture it along.

Thanks again y'all.

On 9 Jan 2006 14:43:34 -0800, "Ric"
wrote:

If it doesn't work, I'll buy a batch from one of y'all. But I am hoping
to create my own and then nurture it along.


Hi again Ric,

'No need to buy.

I have two that I am certainly happy to share.

One is ACME (S.F.) and the other is a Poilâne, from France.

Please email me if you would like either, or both.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 2006-01-10, Kenneth wrote:
On 9 Jan 2006 14:43:34 -0800, "Ric"
wrote:

If it doesn't work, I'll buy a batch from one of y'all. But I am hoping
to create my own and then nurture it along.


Hi again Ric,

'No need to buy.

I have two that I am certainly happy to share.

One is ACME (S.F.) and the other is a Poilâne, from France.

I am curious -- do you notice significant differences in how these
starters behave, and have the differences persisted over time even
though the starters are presumably now refreshed in the same kitchen
with the same flour? (I.e., are the cultures stable?)

I only have experience with my own home-grown starter, which I started
about 5 years ago here in North Carolina using whole-wheat flour,
currently maintained using whole organic rye ground in my own mill.
It has from time to time had extended vacations in the refrigerator,
but still seems fairly vibrant. It gives me the kind of bread I want
most of the time: mildly sour with good leavening power. Sometimes,
though, I crave the sharp, tangy sourness of San Francisco sourdough,
and so far I haven't gotten my starter to deliver that. I would be
curious to know if a real S.F. starter would give me better results,
or if it has nothing to do with the starter and my technique is
lacking.

I am also happy to send my starter to anybody who wants it.

--
Randall

Ric wrote:
Good morning sourdough-ers. Question for you; how many of you have
created your sourdough culture from scratch - using naturally occurring
yeasts and bacteria?

I have been underwhelmed with so-called sourdoughs that use commercial
yeast, so i've got some dough started (now in it's second generation)
that I'm trying to allow to start naturally.

anyone have any positive or negative experiences doing such? Any tips?


I've done this a number of times, with only a couple of successes. The
starters that form here (Pittsburgh, PA, USA) tend to be skanky unless
the first flour/water mix contains some amount of acidity. The only
starters that worked well for me were the two where I added a tablespoon
of white vinegar to the initial mix. Once the starter began to "grow", I
dropped the vinegar from the mix.

YMMV.

-N

Randall Nortman wrote:

On 2006-01-10, Kenneth wrote:

One is ACME (S.F.) and the other is a Poilâne, from France.

So you *did* obtain a piece of Poilâne? I thought we had that
discussion about how they wouldn't give you one? And you messed around
until you found a combo of grains like it?

B/

Ric wrote:
Good morning sourdough-ers. Question for you; how many of you have
..naturally.

anyone have any positive or negative experiences doing such? Any tips?

HI Ric,

I've made quite a few different starters from white, whole and grain
wheat and rye. Some are great one I tossed because it was too bland.
The last method I tried and thought was wonderful was Kenneth's wheat
berries method.
http://tinyurl.com/96xfl

I understand where Dusty is coming from I had been baking for years
before I tried sourdough but everyone is different I suppose and if you
are motivated enough you'll do it what ever way you try.

Have fun,

TG

The more you travel the more yeast you expose your starter to. If your
so amazing with the sourdough why aren't you at your bakery, making
bread for the massive crowds of people you serve every day, or writing
books for people like me to learn from your greatness.
Maybe your house is a breading ground for yeast, the some of us have
to invite them in when we need them in mass quantities. Time of year,
location, and a few other things can make a difference in the amount of
yeast floating around. Do your homework, Biology is the way to go, and
biology tells us that yeast prefer a cooler climate, over warmer, and
being located around a bay where its cool and some what humid is the
premier location for yeast production. SAN
FRANCISCO!!!!!!!!!get it.
It's nice to say that your starter is really really old, but age has
little to do with the quality of your starter, or dough. A 2-month-old
starter can make the same bread as a 200-year-old starter.
To answer back to a few other people quoting me on the location idea;
its not and Idea, It's a fact. Yes yeast are in the flour that you
use, but those yeast found the wheat, or GRAPES because they were
floating around got hungry and decided to grab a bite to eat. Yes I'm
sure if you put flour, and water together in a completely sterile
environment, with no contact with the out side world, that the yeast in
the flour would multiple enough to make a starter. A on a semi cool day
50s or 60s set your starter out side and the process will be speed up a
little.
Yeast prefer whole wheat, or rye flour, reason; yeast cling to the
bran, so the more bran the more chances for yeast.

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:23:01 GMT, Randall Nortman
wrote:

I am curious -- do you notice significant differences in how these
starters behave, and have the differences persisted over time even
though the starters are presumably now refreshed in the same kitchen
with the same flour? (I.e., are the cultures stable?)

Hi Randall,

Yes...

One difference that is very easily described, and very
easily observed:

I feed these two side by side. Same flour... same
temperature... same quantities... same water... even the
same clear plastic containers.

When I do, there is little evident difference for the first
many hours. They expand equally, they develop what would be
described as the same "froth."

But then, just as they are about the peak, the ACME falls
back before the Poilâne every time.

They have lived together for about four years, and yes, I
believe that they have retained their distinct
characteristics.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 10 Jan 2006 01:31:08 -0800, "TG"
wrote:

The last method I tried and thought was wonderful was Kenneth's wheat
berries method.

Howdy,

I believe that was Will's suggestion...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."