howdy all. i finally decided to come out of lurk mode and tell you about an
experiment i have been wanting to try. i have been baking for about a year
now, almost exclusively sd, and i have been disappointed with the lack of
sour taste in my bread. in the past i have tried a number of things to get
the sour the way i personally want it, such as refer time, and longer proof
times, all to my continuing dissatisfaction.

so I spent some time researching souring my sd.. mike avery has a very nice
page with helpful suggestions he http://www.sourdoughhome.com/sour.html
So using some of the tips i gleaned, i went to work.

i first wanted to know if cooling the final dough had any major effect on
sour and overall taste, and also wanted to know how using my mixer (ka pro
5) compared to using the no mix method. since I have two active, and I think
stable starters, i decided to make four loaves at once. one from each
starter would be proofed and risen the same day, and the other two would be
identical except after dough stage, they would go in the refer 36 hrs.

my general recipe was as follows: 1/4 c sd, 1c ap flour, 1c ro water // wait
for good activity (4-6 hrs) and then add ½ c ww flour and ½ c ro water //
wait for peak activity and stir in 3 tsp kosher salt // add 1 c ww flour and
1 c ap flour // mix by hand and do 4 folds 45 min each or mix by dough hook
approx 4 min speed 2. form loaf, rise and bake at 450° 25 min and 400° 15
min, int temp 190°.

as a result of baking these loaves i made the following changes in the
recipe: salt from 3 tsp to 2 tsp // final flour mixture- 3/4 c ww flour and
1 c ap flour // oven temp 425° for 40 min.

loaves #1 and #2 http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...72/bread12.jpg

these were the two i did without refer time. #1 i mixed by mixer and #2 by
no mix method. loaf #1
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...read1crumb.jpg was shaped
into a batard style and had very little oven spring, dense crumb, heavy
crust, and nice sour. loaf #2 i did 45 min between folds, 4 folds, shaped
into boule. it had great oven spring, med chewy crumb , med crust and more
sour than #1, with better balance of flavors.

loaves #3 and #4 http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...72/Bread34.jpg

both doughs were put in fere for 36 hours to ripen and taken out and allowed
to sit 2 hrs, shaped and allowed to rise additional 2 hrs. loaf #3
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...read3crumb.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...372/Bread3.jpg was shaped into a
long french style loaf and did not hold shape very well. on baking- not much
oven spring, chewy crust, med sour, with better overall flavor than #1 and
#2. loaf #4 http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...read4crumb.jpg -
i reformed after allowing to sit on counter for total of 4 hrs, after
reforming, i allowed to rise for additional hr, slashed and baked. result
was good sour taste, wheat very noticeable, dense crumb with chewy and nice
flavor holes, med-light crust, nice oven spring.

conclusion- biggest effect on sour seemed to be making the starter a smaller
portion of the recipe. formerly i used 1 c starter to begin same recipe.
there is a better balance of flavors when it sits in the refer. future
experiments i will try to determine the best refer time for my starters.
using ww flour also helped to get a better taste, as both of my starters are
ap flour base. also using the no mix method had a superior effect on the
final bread, larger holes and better crumb structure, although I will have
to adjust to working with higher hydration dough. my general reference for
determining a good sd bread is san francisco sd bread.

question- has anyone else had good success getting sf style taste with a
certain method? grain type, proof time or temp, etc?

in taking pictures in my kitchen, I also found this interesting one
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1121372/breadfairy5(2).jpg

dan w

Well done, Dan! Although I had to diagram your sequences in order
to follow them...(:-o)!

I'm going to ponder your steps and see how they line up to what I've
been doing (and what I could change), to see if I can come up with
something similar. As I too, have been making great looking bread.
But only my Rye comes out a bit sour, not my "plain" SF SD. So I'm
also looking for "improvements"...

Dusty

"dan w" wrote in message
. ..
howdy all. i finally decided to come out of lurk mode and tell you
about an
experiment i have been wanting to try. i have been baking for
about a year
now, almost exclusively sd, and i have been disappointed with the
lack of
sour taste in my bread. in the past i have tried a number of
things to get
the sour the way i personally want it, such as refer time, and
longer proof
times, all to my continuing dissatisfaction.
....

"Dusty Bleher" wrote in message
...
Well done, Dan! Although I had to diagram your sequences in order
to follow them...(:-o)!

I'm going to ponder your steps and see how they line up to what I've
been doing (and what I could change), to see if I can come up with
something similar.

thx dusty. i would be very interested in what you come up with.

dan w

I am so glad for your post. I have been attempting the opposite;
trying to keep the bread from being too sour so my family will begin
eating it. I tried making my bread yesterday with 1/2 fresh ground
wheat and 1/2 UB AP flour. I let it rise once instead of twice and the
bread turned out the BEST ever for me. So I think I have an easy one
day bread recipe that I can live with but enough time that the wheat
loses most of the phytic acids.

If I had used whole wheat in the starter, it would have created a bread
too sour for me, so I add the whole wheat during the day when I feed my
'sponge' every few hours until it is dough making time. That way the
wheat has about 6 or 8 hours to stay in the sponge or dough before
baking.

Thanks.

dan w wrote:

question- has anyone else had good success getting sf style taste with a
certain method? grain type, proof time or temp, etc?

Dan,

A while back Kenneth kindly sent me a sample of the Acme starter. My
first couple of trials produced what I would call "traditional" S.F.
flavor. But once I put the starter in my regular rotation, and it got
used once every two weeks, instead of every day, it began to produce
milder levain style breads... like the rest of my starters.

I speculate that starters find their own equilibrium based on use.
Starters used 24/7, as you'd expect in a production bakery, can hold a
stronger LB side. The occasional use, as in once a week, followed by
refrigerator storage, tend to yeastiness, I think.

My solution was to buy a $4.95 1.5 liter crockpot with low/high/warm
settings at Walmart and attach it to a light on-off timer system ($5).
I drilled a small hole in the plastic lid (don't get a glass lid model)
to insert a thermometer. With modest trialing, I could cycle the warm
setting on and off to generate a stable 90 degree water bath (or 80
degrees for an in-the-crock-pot-sponge). I moved from a two stage
refreshment practice to three over a 24 hour period. So a walnut sized
chunk of firm starter becomes a softball sized piece of very soft (wet)
dough. Then I picked up my standard build and retard routines. So...
step one is a warmer, more active refreshment. Get a look a Samartha's
detmold notes, this is basically a *******ized setup of his aquarium
system.

Next, I bought a Rubbermaid plastic box (another $4) and a small
heating pad ($15). After the build and 24 hour retard, I began warm
proofing the bread. The heating pad works really well since it doesn't
heat the air. It warms the baskets or cloches directly. I also took a
page from DickA's playbook and added a damp sponge to the box to
increase moisture. So... step two is a forced proof. By-the-by, that
light timer can cycle the heating pad for scheduling flexibility.

Result... the Acme returned to S.F. status. There is a bit more clutter
to deal with, but overall not more work. I find I am liking the forced
radiant proof. I should have gotten off my lazy duff and done this a
while back.

Will

BigJohn wrote:


... That way the
wheat has about 6 or 8 hours to stay in the sponge or dough before
baking.


Once upon a time I experimented briefly with soaking the Whole Wheat
portion of the flour with water overnight. No starter, just the water
and flour. I thought I got improved flavor and lighter bread. You
might want to give something like that a try if you are in the mood to
experiment.

Regards,

Charles

Hello Dan & all;

Okay, been readin' & ponderin'...

"dan w" wrote in message
. ..
....
now, almost exclusively sd, and i have been disappointed with the
lack of
sour taste in my bread. in the past i have tried a number of
things to get
As have I.

....
so I spent some time researching souring my sd.. mike avery has a
very nice
page with helpful suggestions he
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/sour.html
Yes he does. Also, Samarth has some excellent pages. Both are well
worth the time to browse.

....
i first wanted to know if cooling the final dough had any major
effect on
sour and overall taste, and also wanted to know how using my mixer
(ka pro
Yep. That's been a point of interest for me as well. I've read all
of the recommendations often posted here for those "retarded" rises
and how they help to sour the bread. I've tried them. And I never
got the results I was told to expect. In fact, it makes less sense.
Cuz, IIRC; the LB's are more active at a warmer temperature than the
yeasts. While cooling should retard the activity of the yeasts, it
would seem to me that the LB's would be even further retarded. So
it just didn't add up.

Please note; I'm not saying the "retarding" concept has no merit.
Only that in *my* experience, using *my* methods, and *my* starter;
it's been a dismal failure (at least so far). And if I have to
change anything in one or more of those variables, I will.

5) compared to using the no mix method. since I have two active,
and I think
stable starters, i decided to make four loaves at once. one from
each
starter would be proofed and risen the same day, and the other two
would be
identical except after dough stage, they would go in the refer 36
hrs.
Wow! 36 hours! Did the dough rise much in the fridge? When you
took it out, did you notice any different or distinguishing aromas?

my general recipe was as follows: 1/4 c sd, 1c ap flour, 1c ro
water // wait
for good activity (4-6 hrs) and then add ½ c ww flour and ½ c ro
water //
wait for peak activity and stir in 3 tsp kosher salt // add 1 c ww
flour and
1 c ap flour // mix by hand and do 4 folds 45 min each or mix by
dough hook
approx 4 min speed 2. form loaf, rise and bake at 450° 25 min and
400° 15
min, int temp 190°.
Yep. Sounds pretty straight-forward...

as a result of baking these loaves i made the following changes in
the
recipe: salt from 3 tsp to 2 tsp // final flour mixture- 3/4 c ww
flour and
3-tsp to 2-tsp? Why? What was your cue?

1 c ap flour // oven temp 425° for 40 min.

loaves #1 and #2
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...72/bread12.jpg

these were the two i did without refer time. #1 i mixed by mixer
and #2 by
no mix method. loaf #1
Wow! Your results were far more dramatic than my own. While I've
always gotten good loft--equal to or better than from mixing--since
I changed to "no-mixer", I can't say I got as much as you did. Good
job!

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...read1crumb.jpg was
shaped
....
loaves #3 and #4
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...72/Bread34.jpg
....
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...read3crumb.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...372/Bread3.jpg was
shaped into a
....
#2. loaf #4
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...read4crumb.jpg -
Good pix!

....
reforming, i allowed to rise for additional hr, slashed and baked.
result
was good sour taste, wheat very noticeable, dense crumb with chewy
and nice
flavor holes, med-light crust, nice oven spring.

conclusion- biggest effect on sour seemed to be making the starter
a smaller
portion of the recipe. formerly i used 1 c starter to begin same
recipe.
A most interesting point. Given that this would most effect the
"working" time of the dough, that point certainly has legs...

there is a better balance of flavors when it sits in the refer.
future
experiments i will try to determine the best refer time for my
starters.
using ww flour also helped to get a better taste, as both of my
starters are
ap flour base. also using the no mix method had a superior effect
on the
Did you use "Stretch&Fold" or "Flatten&Fold"?

final bread, larger holes and better crumb structure, although I
will have
to adjust to working with higher hydration dough. my general
reference for
determining a good sd bread is san francisco sd bread.
10-4 that!

question- has anyone else had good success getting sf style taste
with a
certain method? grain type, proof time or temp, etc?
Not yet. That's why I've been devouring your words on that
subject...(:-o)!


L8r all,
Dusty

thx will for the details. much to my chagrin, i must admit that now that i
have gotten past the stage of making good looking bread and getting the
crust and crumb as i want it, it has become more evident that to attain the
consistant sour flavor and balance that i am looking for, i must pay more
attention to temp and proof times. this goes against my baking "by feel"
theory. i still believe that for a new baker, it is more helpful to know
what the the sponge and dough should look and feel like, but now i think to
get where i want to be i must get more technical so i thank you for
giving me some more techie info and will give it consideration. however my
goal remains to make a sf style sd bread that requires little or no mixing
or any other devices, except possibly a refer.

dan w
"Will" wrote in message
oups.com...

dan w wrote:

question- has anyone else had good success getting sf style taste with a
certain method? grain type, proof time or temp, etc?

Dan,

A while back Kenneth kindly sent me a sample of the Acme starter. My
first couple of trials produced what I would call "traditional" S.F.
flavor. But once I put the starter in my regular rotation, and it got
used once every two weeks, instead of every day, it began to produce
milder levain style breads... like the rest of my starters.

I speculate that starters find their own equilibrium based on use.
Starters used 24/7, as you'd expect in a production bakery, can hold a
stronger LB side. The occasional use, as in once a week, followed by
refrigerator storage, tend to yeastiness, I think.

My solution was to buy a $4.95 1.5 liter crockpot with low/high/warm
settings at Walmart and attach it to a light on-off timer system ($5).
I drilled a small hole in the plastic lid (don't get a glass lid model)
to insert a thermometer. With modest trialing, I could cycle the warm
setting on and off to generate a stable 90 degree water bath (or 80
degrees for an in-the-crock-pot-sponge). I moved from a two stage
refreshment practice to three over a 24 hour period. So a walnut sized
chunk of firm starter becomes a softball sized piece of very soft (wet)
dough. Then I picked up my standard build and retard routines. So...
step one is a warmer, more active refreshment. Get a look a Samartha's
detmold notes, this is basically a *******ized setup of his aquarium
system.

Next, I bought a Rubbermaid plastic box (another $4) and a small
heating pad ($15). After the build and 24 hour retard, I began warm
proofing the bread. The heating pad works really well since it doesn't
heat the air. It warms the baskets or cloches directly. I also took a
page from DickA's playbook and added a damp sponge to the box to
increase moisture. So... step two is a forced proof. By-the-by, that
light timer can cycle the heating pad for scheduling flexibility.

Result... the Acme returned to S.F. status. There is a bit more clutter
to deal with, but overall not more work. I find I am liking the forced
radiant proof. I should have gotten off my lazy duff and done this a
while back.

Will

"Dusty Bleher" wrote in message
...
Hello Dan & all;

Okay, been readin' & ponderin'...

Wow! 36 hours! Did the dough rise much in the fridge? When you
took it out, did you notice any different or distinguishing aromas?

it rose approx 50%, i think, however i didn't especially look for how much
it rose at the time. i will track next time. i did not really check for a
particular smell either, but will try to remember to do so in the future.

Did you use "Stretch&Fold" or "Flatten&Fold"?

i used what you probably would call Flatten&Fold. as to using this method,
which i really like(thx mike), the dough tends to allow for much higher
hydration, thus at least for me, better crumb. the only drawback has been
that forming is more difficult. for my round loaves i have resorted to
using a cheescake pan siding to give strength during final rising. i simply
spray oil on the inside and put it in with the bread during bake for about
20 min and then remove. results he
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...der_id=1549611

dan w

dan w wrote:
however my
goal remains to make a sf style sd bread that requires little or no mixing
or any other devices, except possibly a refer.

Hey Dan... I understand that sentiment. I fought building the proofer
and resisted figuring out the crockpot waterbath starter. I kept
thinking, let the dough adjust to the conditions... go with it, keep it
simple.

Except now that I've crossed the control freak line, I am eating
really, really, good bread. It's another level. About $30 separates you
from enlightenment.

Will

i had no idea that enlightenment was so inexpensive i'm sure with more
gentle nudging, it will eventually end up in the "control freak" side, but i
continue to hope for a simpler solution.

dan w

"Will" wrote in message
ups.com...

dan w wrote:
however my
goal remains to make a sf style sd bread that requires little or no
mixing
or any other devices, except possibly a refer.

Hey Dan... I understand that sentiment. I fought building the proofer
and resisted figuring out the crockpot waterbath starter. I kept
thinking, let the dough adjust to the conditions... go with it, keep it
simple.

Except now that I've crossed the control freak line, I am eating
really, really, good bread. It's another level. About $30 separates you
from enlightenment.

Will

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:32:51 -0800, "dan w"
wrote:

i had no idea that enlightenment was so inexpensive i'm sure with more
gentle nudging, it will eventually end up in the "control freak" side, but i
continue to hope for a simpler solution.

dan w

Hi Dan,

I agree with Will on this issue...

Of course, good bread can be made simply, (but there will be
a lack of predictability.)

Great bread, well, that seems to take a bit more effort of
control.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

dan w wrote:
howdy all. i finally decided to come out of lurk mode and tell you about an
experiment i have been wanting to try. i have been baking for about a year
now, almost exclusively sd, and i have been disappointed with the lack of
sour taste in my bread. in the past i have tried a number of things to get
the sour the way i personally want it, such as refer time, and longer proof
times, all to my continuing dissatisfaction.

Here another experiment is brought that could help understanding SD
sour taste development.

"Influence and Interactions of Processing Conditions and Starter
Culture
on Formation of Acids, Volatile Compounds and Amino Acids in Wheat
Sourdoughs"
Katina Kati, Poutanen Kaisa, Autio Karin

http://199.86.26.71/cerealchemistry/...4/0728-02R.pdf

I personally liked much the following lines:

"Wheat sourdough has a strong acidic flavor which is not appreciated by
consumers in most countries. Extensive acidity formation thus limits
the amount of sourdough that
can be used in the actual bread dough and may cause bitter bread flavor
(Salovaara and Valjakka 1987; Meignen et al 2001)."

and

"Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) and yeast used in these studies were
Lactobacillus plantarum VTT E 78076, L. brevis VTT E 95612, and
Saccharomyces cerevisiaey VTT B81047. Selected strains originated from
Finnish rye sourdoughs."

I.e., not LB SF and not Candida millery.

Leonid

hofer wrote:

I personally liked much the following lines:

"Wheat sourdough has a strong acidic flavor which is not appreciated by
consumers in most countries.


I have always argued that "sour" is a taste, akin to salty, bitter,
sweet, and possibly meaty. whereas flavor is the aggregation of the more
complex and sophisticated aromatic flavors such as nutty and wheaty
combined with the basic tastes. A popular fixation on "sour" misses the
whole point of good bread flavor.

This can be compared to music where the base line rhythum is like the
basic tastes, however the melody is where the real and sophisticated
action is going on. Primitives, of course, focus on the rhythums, or in
this case, sour taste.



... I.e., not LB SF and not Candida millery.


One has to at least allow for the possibility that LB SF and Candida
millery are modern myths. Honestly, don't you think that san franciscus
and millery are names that are just a little too cute? Certainly
Lactobacillus and yeast exist, but obviously LB SF and Candida millery
are made up names.

Made up modern names in an old language could be just a ploy to lend a
mantle of reality to a figment of somebodys imagination. After all it
is only in the last decade or so that there is any mention of these
creatures. Contrast this to the case of the Bread Faeries. The wee folk
are mentioned in the Old Celtic language that predates Latin by some
years. They have been known for thousands of years, not just decades.

Perhaps the modern world demands that we invent cute modern names for
the ancient creatures that raise the bread. Can you imagine Megan
O'Malty or Bridget Browning? Of course they would have to be translated
into Old Celtic to give them gravitas. I am not going to risk messing
with them, but a braver person might.

Regards,

Charles

Charles Perry wrote:

A popular fixation on "sour" misses the
whole point of good bread flavor.

I agree.

My sense was that Dan, the original poster for this thread, wasn't
looking for sour as much as he was looking for robust.

I would like to think that flavor comes from simple technique, done
well. But like Kenneth, I have come to believe it takes a more
considered approach, that temperature and hydration must be modulated.
Taken one more step, this suggests a different paradigm than
simplicity. It suggests bread that is more expressive of the baker and
less of the materials.

Leonid's pdf was interesting, especially the ash aspects. It tells me
there is room to work on blending flours.

Now somewhere in all of this, the faeries keep coming up. My kitchen
hasn't got any, my wife is Irish and she told me so. What's up with
that?

Will