A Food and drink forum. FoodBanter.com

Welcome to FoodBanter.com forums which provide access to the finest food and drink related newsgroups.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most newsgroup discussions and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics to the food related newsgroups, communicate privately with other FoodBanter.com members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact support.

Go Back   Home » FoodBanter.com forum » Food and Cooking » Sourdough
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

Bread vs. AP flour for starter maintenance



 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 14-08-2005, 05:59 PM
Randall Nortman
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bread vs. AP flour for starter maintenance

I've been baking whole-grain sourdough bread for years, but due to
requests by friends I have recently been playing with 100% white flour
sourdough. I started by converting my whole-wheat starter to white
flour, using bread flour to feed it because I intended to use bread
flour (KA brand) to make the actual dough, and I figure I ought to
feed the starter with the same stuff I intend it to feed on in the
dough. Plus, I figured the diastatic barley flour would help the
critters break down the starches.

Well, the starter was pretty limp for a few days, but after several
refreshments it seemed to adapt to the new environment and became
quite active. Now, after a couple of weeks of regular feeding it is
very, very active: When I refresh the starter, I quintuple it (by
weight: 10g starter + 20g water + 20g flour), and within 3 hours at
room temperature (about 75F/24C) it has more than doubled, assuming
the inoculum was reasonably fresh and active already at the time of
feeding (I've been feeding every 12 hours). Bread made with this
starter has great volume but the dough rises so quickly that there's
hardly any time for acid formation and the bread has only the
slightest hint of sourness. I suppose that might be the holy grail
for some sourdough bakers, but when I want that kind of bread (and I
often do!) I just use commercial yeast.

I'm wondering if it might make sense to maintain the starter with
all-purpose flour instead of bread flour, so that the starter doesn't
have the assistance of the barley malt and is therefore perhaps a bit
less active.

On the other hand, perhaps the starter is so active because I feed it
so often, and quintuple at each feeding. Perhaps just letting the
starter go for 24 hours between feedings would calm the critters down.
This might matter more than the type of flour.

Any opinions? What kind of flour do you feed your white starter?

--
Randall
Ads
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 14-08-2005, 06:31 PM
Kenneth
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:59:55 GMT, Randall Nortman
wrote:

I'm wondering if it might make sense to maintain the starter with
all-purpose flour instead of bread flour,


Howdy,

Is not KA-AP flour "bread" flour by most standards?

Most folks seem to use the term "bread" flour to mean a
high-protein white.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 14-08-2005, 06:52 PM
Randall Nortman
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 2005-08-14, Kenneth wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:59:55 GMT, Randall Nortman
wrote:

I'm wondering if it might make sense to maintain the starter with
all-purpose flour instead of bread flour,


Howdy,

Is not KA-AP flour "bread" flour by most standards?

Most folks seem to use the term "bread" flour to mean a
high-protein white.


I think that with respect to the current question (starter feeding),
the critical difference between them is not protein content but the
fact that KA bread flour has added malted barley flour, which provides
enzymes that break down the starches into sugars more easily digested
by yeast (and lactobacilli). Unfortunately, I can't check the
ingredient list of the KA AP flour since I put the flour in airtight
containers and throw the bags away, but my recollection is that it
does not have malted barley flour. If that is the case, then the
organisms should have a harder time extracting the sugars and so
fermentation should be slowed. It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect
that you'd even end up with a slightly different mix of yeast and
lactobacilli strains after many generations, having selected for
organisms which produce more of their own enzymes.

--
Randall
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 14-08-2005, 07:04 PM
Randall Nortman
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 2005-08-14, Randall Nortman wrote:
On 2005-08-14, Kenneth wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:59:55 GMT, Randall Nortman
wrote:

I'm wondering if it might make sense to maintain the starter with
all-purpose flour instead of bread flour,


Howdy,

Is not KA-AP flour "bread" flour by most standards?

Most folks seem to use the term "bread" flour to mean a
high-protein white.


I think that with respect to the current question (starter feeding),
the critical difference between them is not protein content but the
fact that KA bread flour has added malted barley flour, which provides
enzymes that break down the starches into sugars more easily digested
by yeast (and lactobacilli). Unfortunately, I can't check the
ingredient list of the KA AP flour since I put the flour in airtight
containers and throw the bags away, but my recollection is that it
does not have malted barley flour.


Nevermind, I found the ingredient list online (not on the King Arthur
site, but at
http://www.mannaharvest.net/product_...oducts_id/3331), and
there is malted barley flour even in the all-purpose flour. So, I
stand corrected, and this entire thread is probably a waste of time,
unless somebody else knows of another reason to prefer bread vs. AP
flour (aside from the fact that AP flour is often cheaper).

--
Randall
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 14-08-2005, 07:09 PM
Samartha Deva
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Randall Nortman wrote:
I've been baking whole-grain sourdough bread for years, but due to
requests by friends I have recently been playing with 100% white flour
sourdough. I started by converting my whole-wheat starter to white
flour, using bread flour to feed it because I intended to use bread
flour (KA brand) to make the actual dough, and I figure I ought to
feed the starter with the same stuff I intend it to feed on in the
dough.


Not really - depending how you grow your starter (in a sense, how much
whole graininess you can tolerate in your final bread - 0.1, 1 or 2 %)
you should be able to maintain one kind of starter - the whole grain
type - and use this to grow what you need for your other breads.

Plus, I figured the diastatic barley flour would help the
critters break down the starches.

Well, the starter was pretty limp for a few days, but after several
refreshments it seemed to adapt to the new environment and became
quite active.


This probably depends on your conditions. I had no problem making white
bread from a small inoculum of a full grain rye starter without going
through extra stages to get the starter going in a new environment.

Now, if I want white bread, I do it in that manner. It works very well.
I currently maintain one FG rye starter by always keeping a small amount
(10 - 20 g) in a small container in the fridge and use that for growing
the next starter. The containers with leftovers I keep for maybe 1/2
year and once and while, I clean up and use their content to make "chaos
bread" - seeing what comes out of it.

Now, after a couple of weeks of regular feeding it is
very, very active: When I refresh the starter, I quintuple it (by
weight: 10g starter + 20g water + 20g flour), and within 3 hours at
room temperature (about 75F/24C) it has more than doubled, assuming
the inoculum was reasonably fresh and active already at the time of
feeding (I've been feeding every 12 hours). Bread made with this
starter has great volume but the dough rises so quickly that there's
hardly any time for acid formation and the bread has only the
slightest hint of sourness.


Punching down should fix that - if you do it often enough, you'll get
sour bricks i. e. over fermented dough.

Another method would be to let your starter get more sour or grow it
warmer to promote LB's. There are growth curves around for hydration and
temperature showing optimal growth for LB's or yeasts for a defined
starter. You (and nobody else here, so it seems) has that. But it's a basis.

I suppose that might be the holy grail
for some sourdough bakers, but when I want that kind of bread (and I
often do!) I just use commercial yeast.


I can't imagine a hard core sourhead having yeast as a holey grail.

I'm wondering if it might make sense to maintain the starter with
all-purpose flour instead of bread flour, so that the starter doesn't
have the assistance of the barley malt and is therefore perhaps a bit
less active.


There are many ways to go about it. To maintain a starter has a certain
overhead. If that does not matter one may enjoy maintaining a variety of
starters and make a variety of breads.

Another way is to use less variety in starters and vary the starter
growing procedures and bread recipes to get variety if so desired.

The number of possible variations is immense.

On the other hand, perhaps the starter is so active because I feed it
so often, and quintuple at each feeding. Perhaps just letting the
starter go for 24 hours between feedings would calm the critters down.
This might matter more than the type of flour.


Another possibility is that you may have promoted one organism over the
other with your treatments and that gives you the result you see.

Yet another possibility is that something completely new was introduced.

Any opinions? What kind of flour do you feed your white starter?


Do what you enjoy most and I fed whatever I used for having around
making white bread, mostly white bread flours (KA, local brand - the KS
contained malted barley, the local brand did not and I didn't add it).

I think the malted barley or not does not matter much with growing a
starter. There are so many factors involved. If you get what you like,
you are fine, if not, you vary some things you think matter and go from
there.

And yes, you may be right, probably a waste of time....


Samartha




  #6 (permalink)  
Old 14-08-2005, 07:13 PM
Wooly
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:59:55 GMT, Randall Nortman
spewed forth :

I've been baking whole-grain sourdough bread for years, but due to
requests by friends I have recently been playing with 100% white flour
sourdough. I started by converting my whole-wheat starter to white
flour, using bread flour to feed it because I intended to use bread
flour (KA brand) to make the actual dough, and I figure I ought to
feed the starter with the same stuff I intend it to feed on in the
dough. Plus, I figured the diastatic barley flour would help the
critters break down the starches.


I'm using King Arthur AP to feed my starter, tho I do bake with 100%
freshly ground wheat flour. I've tried other brands of AP for
maintenance with disappointing results.

+++++++++++++

Reply to the list as I do not publish an email address to USENET.
This practice has cut my spam by more than 95%.
Of course, I did have to abandon a perfectly good email account...
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 15-08-2005, 01:40 AM
Brian Mailman
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Randall Nortman wrote:

So, I stand corrected, and this entire thread is probably a waste of
time, unless somebody else knows of another reason to prefer bread
vs. AP flour (aside from the fact that AP flour is often cheaper).


I use AP to feed the starter, and Stonebuhr Bread flour to make dough.

B/
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 15-08-2005, 01:57 PM
Randall Nortman
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 2005-08-14, Samartha Deva wrote:
Randall Nortman wrote:
I've been baking whole-grain sourdough bread for years, but due to
requests by friends I have recently been playing with 100% white flour
sourdough. I started by converting my whole-wheat starter to white
flour, using bread flour to feed it because I intended to use bread
flour (KA brand) to make the actual dough, and I figure I ought to
feed the starter with the same stuff I intend it to feed on in the
dough.

[...]
Well, the starter was pretty limp for a few days, but after several
refreshments it seemed to adapt to the new environment and became
quite active.


This probably depends on your conditions. I had no problem making white
bread from a small inoculum of a full grain rye starter without going
through extra stages to get the starter going in a new environment.

[...]

It may have been that the whole-wheat starter I began with was a bit
stale (i.e., not enough live organisms) from sitting in the fridge
without refreshments for too long. (I recently got married, and so
was kept too busy to bake for several months.) I'll try converting a
fresher whole-wheat starter to white flour and see if there's any
noticable adjustment period.


Another method would be to let your starter get more sour or grow it
warmer to promote LB's. There are growth curves around for hydration and
temperature showing optimal growth for LB's or yeasts for a defined
starter. You (and nobody else here, so it seems) has that. But it's a basis.


Yes, I've seen the curves, and I've played around with different
temperatures. I came to the conclusion that it's too much of a pain
to bother, and so now I do everything either at whatever room
temperature happens to be or in the refrigerator. It's less
consistent, which can be inconvenient, but also means I get built-in
variety. (I actually came very close to building a proofing
"aquarium" such as you describe on your website, but never quite got
that far, perhaps because I made the project too complicated by
planning a microprocessor controlled system so that I could program in
temperature-vs-time curves.)


I suppose that might be the holy grail
for some sourdough bakers, but when I want that kind of bread (and I
often do!) I just use commercial yeast.


I can't imagine a hard core sourhead having yeast as a holey grail.

[...]

It's my understanding that many Old World bakers (at least those of
French heritage) try rather hard to reduce sour flavors in their
naturally leavened bread. I suspect this is a holdover from before
there was commercial yeast, and so sourdough bread without the sour
flavor was a mark of a skilled baker. People always want whatever is
least common or hardest to come by -- these days bland bread is most
common, so gourmets want flavorful bread. (And bread snobs want
flavorful bread made only with flour, salt, and water.)


On another note, the white bread I made yesterday with my new
bread-flour starter, which did not taste sour to me when still warm
(about 45 minutes after coming out of the oven), developed a stronger
sourness once it had cooled completely. This is an effect I've
noticed with whole wheat bread, too. Any idea what causes this
phenomenon? Is it just that I don't taste the sourness due to the
warmth or other masking flavors which evaporate away as the bread
cools, or is more acid still being produced? I would think that if
anything is still evaporating away, it would be acetic acid, which is
what's supposed to have the more sour flavor. Of course, it could
just be a quirk of my taste buds, since my wife thought the bread
tasted sour even when it was still warm.

--
Randall
 




Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
rec.food.sourdough FAQ Questions and Answers Darrell Greenwood Sourdough 0 21-06-2005 05:17 AM
rec.food.sourdough FAQ Recipes (part 1 of 2) Darrell Greenwood Sourdough 1 29-12-2004 05:27 AM
rec.food.sourdough FAQ Questions and Answers Darrell Greenwood Sourdough 0 29-12-2004 05:27 AM
rec.food.sourdough FAQ Recipes (part 1 of 2) Darrell Greenwood Sourdough 1 10-12-2004 05:17 AM
rec.food.sourdough FAQ Questions and Answers Darrell Greenwood Sourdough 0 28-09-2004 05:17 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.SEO by vBSEO 3.2.0
Copyright 2004-2014 FoodBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.