By lurking diligently, I downloaded the translated spreadsheet that
lists the ingredients in a range of Russian (rye) breads from:

http://www.indiana.edu/~pollang/Russian_bread_table.pdf.

Unlike the long list of ingredients in German pumpernickel recipes, the
list for Simple Rye (Dark) is encouragingly simple (and likely to be
obtainable in Australia).

But what about the process?

Regrettably, my feeble attempts to learn the Russian language ground to
a halt when I discovered that in Russian there are two verbs for every
activity - one for a once-off action and a second for a routine action.

So a reference to a Russian web-page will not help me. Any other
advice will be gratefully received.

Felix Karpfen
--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Felix Karpfen wrote:

>
>Unlike the long list of ingredients in German pumpernickel recipes, the
>list for Simple Rye (Dark) is encouragingly simple (and likely to be
>obtainable in Australia).
>
>
>
If a pumpernickel recipe has a long list of ingredients, it's not an
authentic German recipe. My favorite recipe for a pumpernickel, along
with a fine rant, is at Samartha's web site. Look at
http://www.samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/index.html

As for other German rye breads, while some have a long list of
ingredients, none have difficult lists of ingredients. Sadly, the
Russian recipes call for various rye malts that seem to be generally
unavailable outside Russia...

Mike

Hi,
What you are quoting is my translation of a table of ingredients from a
book by Royter. It is not meant as a recipe, but a comparative table of
ingredients. There are translated recipes of Russian bread here and
there, but they don't compare to the originals. One book with such
recipes is The Art of Russian Cuisine, Author: Anne Volokh, Mavis
Manus.


I posted a series of Russian language household bread recipes to show
how different they are from the professional bread recipes. I don't
have the time to translate much, but I translated a very simple recipe
(with a few modifications for locations outside the Russian
countryside). The original was posted at:
http://www.indiana.edu/~pollang/dom_xleb.pdf. My translation follows:

Basic rye bread

Take one third of the recipe's flour and mix it into the warm water,

adding the previously prepared sourdough starter. Carefully knead

the dough (sponge), sprinkling flour on top. Cover the sponge and

put in a warm place. Make sure it does not occupy more than

one-third of its bowl, since it will expand 2-3 times during

fermentation. After around 14 hours, when the sponge has soured,

deflate and add the remaining flour and salt, knead thoroughly and

again let it rise (in its pan) in a warm place.

When the dough has risen, bake. (I use 325-350 F. for around 1.5

hours).

(This can be varied by adding a quantity of white flour, instead of all


rye. You can also use scalded dough or this non-scalded recipe.)

Recipe quantities by weight: 8 kilograms of rye flour, 4 litres water,
1/2 kilogram

starter, 80 grams salt.

I'm sorry if this is not easy to use. There is probably a market for a
good, complete translation of a Russian bread book like Royter's or
Auerman's,


This Lithuanian website has something similar and may be easier:

http://ausis.gf.vu.lt/eka/food/bread.html.

Ron

"Ron" > wrote in message =
oups.com...

> 8 kilograms of rye flour
> 4 litres water
> 1/2 kilogram starter
> 80 grams salt.

> Take one third of the recipe's flour and mix it into the warm water,
adding the previously prepared sourdough starter. Carefully knead
the dough (sponge), sprinkling flour on top. Cover the sponge and
put in a warm place. Make sure it does not occupy more than
one-third of its bowl, since it will expand 2-3 times during
fermentation. After around 14 hours, when the sponge has soured,
deflate and add the remaining flour and salt, knead thoroughly and
again let it rise (in its pan) in a warm place. When the dough has=20
risen, bake. (I use 325-350 F. for around 1.5 hours). <

You are a funny guy, Ron. You do temperature in Fahrenheit, but
quantities in metric.

> This can be varied by adding a quantity of white flour, instead=20
of all rye. You can also use scalded dough or this non-scalded=20
recipe. <

> I'm sorry if this is not easy to use ...

So far, it looks pretty easy. Could you post a photo of your=20
result?

There have been persistent rumors that it is not altogether easy
to get rye loaves to rise well and hold together, for instance:

http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~croehler/sourdough.htm

Why do you suppose that the Detmold folks gyrate in the way
that they do, and why does Samartha need so many temperature-
regulated water baths (plus a pH meter, and a spreadsheet program
to calculate parameters)?

http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/DM3/index.html

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
(Desperate to discover that things are simpler than they appear to be)
(Good at "Rye-Crisp")

Felix Karpfen wrote:
> By lurking diligently, I downloaded the translated spreadsheet that
> lists the ingredients in a range of Russian (rye) breads from:
>
> http://www.indiana.edu/~pollang/Russian_bread_table.pdf.
>
> Unlike the long list of ingredients in German pumpernickel recipes, the
> list for Simple Rye (Dark) is encouragingly simple (and likely to be
> obtainable in Australia).
>
> But what about the process?

Why not try Borodin/sky recipe? The bread is gorgeous. Sure, all the
ingredients could be found in Australia.
Simple Rye, as opposite to "improved" breads, is "poor's" bread, with
lower porosity and higher crumb humidity and acidity, and as for me,
is not as tasty as Borodin and other "zavarka" based rye breads.
BTW, on my opinion, this is the reason why you can't find Russian
simple rye bread recipes on the Net even in Russian: they are not
representatives of Hall of Fame of Russian bread as Borodin or
Rizhskij.

Concerning Basic bread: I wouldn't use this recipe. Till now I didn't
see any recipe with 14 hours souring sponge, maximum 4.
Sprinking flour on the top of the sponge will make it sticky as hell.
Warm place doesn't say me anything. Rising the dough: how much time?

I bake 4 loafs of Borodin bread every two weeks. Last time I have
tested with pH-meter the cumulated acidity and have found that with
Carl's starter I get the levels of acidity complying with that of the
recipe in right times.

I have posted detailed, adapted for home baking recipes of Borodinsky
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...e30d99c78dcf08

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...53e802d4dca2bc

I got the pics of the breads last Saturday. If it could encourage you,
I can post or send the pictures.
Rye malt is available at home brew stores. It is me who has no choice
but order it from US or Canada.
Think I have encountered very good Australian on-line homebrew store in
the past. You can ask at rec.crafts.brewing. Or use barley malt for
rizhskij bread.
If have question about details I would gladly answer.

Cheers.

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 21:38:18 -0600, Mike Avery wrote
(<mailman.0.1123385896.79781.rec.food.sourdough@ma il.otherwhen.com>):

> Felix Karpfen wrote:
>>
>>Unlike the long list of ingredients in German pumpernickel recipes, the
>>list for Simple Rye (Dark) is encouragingly simple (and likely to be
>>obtainable in Australia).

> Russian recipes call for various rye malts that seem to be generally
> unavailable outside Russia...

I have noted in Hamelman (page 364) a reference to "diastatic malt".
That might be better than nothing. However, the Russian "Simple Rye"
is true to its name; the listed ingredients are Rye flour (100),
yeast cake (0.06), salt (1.5) and oil (1.5).

Felix
--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 16:58:21 -0700, Ron wrote
s.com>):

> Hi,
> What you are quoting is my translation of a table of ingredients from a
> book by Royter.
>

I was aware that the acknowledged quote was never intended to be a
full recipe.

And I did also download the other .pdf reference - although I should
have known better. I did recognise "xleb" as bread.

I was fishing for some existing references geared to non-Russian
readers. I considered it totally unreasonable to ask anyone to
translate a Russian text.

I would have settled for a "computer translation". But the only such
program, that I have found, (babelfish - which I have yet to learn how
to use) almost certainly cannot handle .pdf files.

> It is not meant as a recipe, but a comparative table of
> ingredients. There are translated recipes of Russian bread here and
> there, but they don't compare to the originals. One book with such
> recipes is The Art of Russian Cuisine, Author: Anne Volokh, Mavis
> Manus.
>
That was what I was hoping for. I have also managed to locate:

http://www.ruscuisine.com/

which might help.

Thank for for this and the other advice in your reply. I believe
that your posted recipe fills in the gaps in my subsequently-posted
"Westphalian Pumpernickel".

Felix

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:05:57 -0700, hofer wrote
. com>):
>
> Felix Karpfen wrote:
>>
>> Unlike the long list of ingredients in German pumpernickel recipes, the
>> list for Simple Rye (Dark) is encouragingly simple (and likely to be
>> obtainable in Australia).
>>
>> But what about the process?
>
> Why not try Borodin/sky recipe? The bread is gorgeous. Sure, all the
> ingredients could be found in Australia.
> Simple Rye, as opposite to "improved" breads, is "poor's" bread, with
> lower porosity and higher crumb humidity and acidity,

I have, of course, read and filed all the posted info on Borodinsky bread.
But I am a great believer in learning to walk before I attempt to run.

> my opinion, this is the reason why you can't find Russian simple rye
> bread recipes on the Net even in Russian: they are not representatives
> of Hall of Fame of Russian bread as Borodin or Rizhskij.

And that might explain why the German Pumpernickel recipes are much
more elaborate.

But I want to learn how to handle rye dough first. And I would
prefer not to have to make my own malt.
>
> Think I have encountered very good Australian on-line homebrew store in
> the past. You can ask at rec.crafts.brewing. Or use barley malt for
> rizhskij bread.

I checked, of course. There is an excellent homebrew store 10
minutes drive away. Barley malt - yes (I use it routinely in my
homebrews); rye malt - no; try HealthFood stores.

And then comes Hamelman, who points to the difference between
"diastatic malt" and "non-diastatic malt". Which re-enforces my wish
to go "one step at a time".

> Concerning Basic bread: I wouldn't use this recipe. Till now I didn't
> see any recipe with 14 hours souring sponge, maximum 4.
>
As mentioned in the follow-up posting by Dick Adams, the
Detmold-3Stage addresses this problem.

> If have question about details I would gladly answer.

Filed for future reference - when I have got that far.

Meanwhile, thank you (and Dick Adams) for the followups.

Felix
--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

The strange practice of metric weight but Fahrenheit has a simple
explanation. I just translated the weights from the Russian, so it was
easier to just give the metric weight and not covert. But, the
temperatures seemed overly hot and were designed for a so-called
"Russian oven" (russkaya pech). Therefore, I gave a recommendation of
my own. Since I am programmed to use Fahrenheit temperatures, that's
what I gave.

I, like Leonid, make Borodinsky more often than this type, so I don't
have much experience. I just translated a recipe. Being a bit unsure of
it, I recommended a similar one from a Lithuanian website in my post.
Just for fun, though, I may try the all-rye recipe I translated.
However, the only photos I can easily do are cross-sections of slices.
That's because I have a scanner, but not a digital camera.

Ron

> I would have settled for a "computer translation". But the only
> such program, that I have found, (babelfish - which I have yet to
> learn how to use) almost certainly cannot handle .pdf files.

Be careful using Babelfish translation tool. It translates in a
word-by-word manner and distorts the source sense.
You may get poisoned by a misunderstood recipe.
Hire me to avoid it. I am a native Russian speaker living
in St. Petersburg, Russia. My rate is 0.06 USD/word.
I provide a 30% discount for your first order for translation. PDF file
translation (as well as any other file format) is available.

Learn more by reading my CV at
http://homepage.lanck.net/superexper...rubtsev_cv.htm
and contact me ONLY from there by hitting "Contact".

Regards,

Yuri


=== Native Russian Translator on ANY subject ===
http://homepage.lanck.net/superexper...rubtsev_cv.htm
=== Reasonable rates. Fast turnaroud time. ===



Felix Karpfen wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 16:58:21 -0700, Ron wrote
> s.com>):
>
> > Hi,
> > What you are quoting is my translation of a table of ingredients from a
> > book by Royter.
> >
>
> I was aware that the acknowledged quote was never intended to be a
> full recipe.
>
> And I did also download the other .pdf reference - although I should
> have known better. I did recognise "xleb" as bread.
>
> I was fishing for some existing references geared to non-Russian
> readers. I considered it totally unreasonable to ask anyone to
> translate a Russian text.
>
> I would have settled for a "computer translation". But the only such
> program, that I have found, (babelfish - which I have yet to learn how
> to use) almost certainly cannot handle .pdf files.
>
> > It is not meant as a recipe, but a comparative table of
> > ingredients. There are translated recipes of Russian bread here and
> > there, but they don't compare to the originals. One book with such
> > recipes is The Art of Russian Cuisine, Author: Anne Volokh, Mavis
> > Manus.
> >
> That was what I was hoping for. I have also managed to locate:
>
> http://www.ruscuisine.com/
>
> which might help.
>
> Thank for for this and the other advice in your reply. I believe
> that your posted recipe fills in the gaps in my subsequently-posted
> "Westphalian Pumpernickel".
>
> Felix
>
> --
> Felix Karpfen
> Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Russian Super Translator wrote:
>
>>I would have settled for a "computer translation". But the only
>>such program, that I have found, (babelfish - which I have yet to
>>learn how to use) almost certainly cannot handle .pdf files.
>
>
> Be careful using Babelfish translation tool. It translates in a
> word-by-word manner and distorts the source sense.
> You may get poisoned by a misunderstood recipe.
> Hire me to avoid it. I am a native Russian speaker living
> in St. Petersburg, Russia. My rate is 0.06 USD/word.
> I provide a 30% discount for your first order for translation. PDF file
> translation (as well as any other file format) is available.
>
> Learn more by reading my CV at
> http://homepage.lanck.net/superexper...rubtsev_cv.htm
> and contact me ONLY from there by hitting "Contact".
>
> Regards,
>
> Yuri

While I acknowledgr Yuri's far greater expertise, there is often a need
for a "quick and dirty" translation.

Yuri is correct about Babelfish, and I do find it lacking in sense. For
Russian, there is a somewhat better option on line:
http://translate.ru/eng
They (Prompt company) make busuness-grade translators and have that site
for direct on-line use, for free.

Still can't handle pdf files directly, though. I believe all recent
versions of Adobe Acrobat Reader have a Text Select tool. You can use
that to copy/paste blocks of text into a translation engine, or into a
text file, which you can submit for translation.

Dave

ProMT translates even worse than Babelfish because it apply only
"General" dictionary for free online translation,
besides, the source text size is limited. Yes, they provide "human
translation" because they know themselves that their ProMT machine
translation is shit.
If you need correct and accurate translation - hire me; the
super-high quality of translation is guaranteed.

Yuri

=== Native Russian Translator on ANY subject ===
http://homepage.lanck.net/superexper...rubtsev_cv.htm
=== Reasonable rates. Fast turnaroud time. ===

Note: contact me ONLY from my CV webpage (abowe).



Dave Bell wrote:
> Russian Super Translator wrote:
> >
> >>I would have settled for a "computer translation". But the only
> >>such program, that I have found, (babelfish - which I have yet to
> >>learn how to use) almost certainly cannot handle .pdf files.
> >
> >
> > Be careful using Babelfish translation tool. It translates in a
> > word-by-word manner and distorts the source sense.
> > You may get poisoned by a misunderstood recipe.
> > Hire me to avoid it. I am a native Russian speaker living
> > in St. Petersburg, Russia. My rate is 0.06 USD/word.
> > I provide a 30% discount for your first order for translation. PDF file
> > translation (as well as any other file format) is available.
> >
> > Learn more by reading my CV at
> > http://homepage.lanck.net/superexper...rubtsev_cv.htm
> > and contact me ONLY from there by hitting "Contact".
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Yuri
>
> While I acknowledgr Yuri's far greater expertise, there is often a need
> for a "quick and dirty" translation.
>
> Yuri is correct about Babelfish, and I do find it lacking in sense. For
> Russian, there is a somewhat better option on line:
> http://translate.ru/eng
> They (Prompt company) make busuness-grade translators and have that site
> for direct on-line use, for free.
>
> Still can't handle pdf files directly, though. I believe all recent
> versions of Adobe Acrobat Reader have a Text Select tool. You can use
> that to copy/paste blocks of text into a translation engine, or into a
> text file, which you can submit for translation.
>
> Dave

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:20:29 +0000, Dave Bell wrote
>):

> Russian Super Translator wrote:
>>
>>>I would have settled for a "computer translation". But the only
>>>such program, that I have found, (babelfish - which I have yet to
>>>learn how to use) almost certainly cannot handle .pdf files.
>>
>>
>> Be careful using Babelfish translation tool. It translates in a
>> word-by-word manner and distorts the source sense.
>
> While I acknowledgr Yuri's far greater expertise, there is often a need
> for a "quick and dirty" translation.
>
> Yuri is correct about Babelfish, and I do find it lacking in sense. For
> Russian, there is a somewhat better option on line:
> http://translate.ru/eng

My favourite computer translation (from the German Bible) reads:

"The ghost is ready but the meat is soft".

And I would not expect computers to achieve more when making a
translation of Pushkin.

> Still can't handle pdf files directly, though. I believe all recent
> versions of Adobe Acrobat Reader have a Text Select tool. You can use
> that to copy/paste blocks of text into a translation engine, or into a
> text file, which you can submit for translation.

No Microsoft; no Acrobat Reader (I could get an Acrobat plugin if
needed). I have just discovered how to do a "copy-and-paste" on
what I now have. I will probably need to fiddle with the character
set (to ISO-8859-5?), but this is also doable on my setup.

My thanks to both for the advice. Both URLs are flagged for download.

Felix

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Felix Karpfen wrote:

>
>>Still can't handle pdf files directly, though. I believe all recent
>>versions of Adobe Acrobat Reader have a Text Select tool. You can use
>>that to copy/paste blocks of text into a translation engine, or into a
>>text file, which you can submit for translation.
>
>
> No Microsoft; no Acrobat Reader

If that's still an issue, get the Linux version for Acrobat Reader.
Version 7.0+ should handle the Russian characters and has the text
select tool.

Samartha