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Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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Making (Russian) Simple Rye
By lurking diligently, I downloaded the translated spreadsheet that
lists the ingredients in a range of Russian (rye) breads from: http://www.indiana.edu/~pollang/Russian_bread_table.pdf. Unlike the long list of ingredients in German pumpernickel recipes, the list for Simple Rye (Dark) is encouragingly simple (and likely to be obtainable in Australia). But what about the process? Regrettably, my feeble attempts to learn the Russian language ground to a halt when I discovered that in Russian there are two verbs for every activity - one for a once-off action and a second for a routine action. So a reference to a Russian web-page will not help me. Any other advice will be gratefully received. Felix Karpfen -- Felix Karpfen Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA) |
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Felix Karpfen wrote:
> >Unlike the long list of ingredients in German pumpernickel recipes, the >list for Simple Rye (Dark) is encouragingly simple (and likely to be >obtainable in Australia). > > > If a pumpernickel recipe has a long list of ingredients, it's not an authentic German recipe. My favorite recipe for a pumpernickel, along with a fine rant, is at Samartha's web site. Look at http://www.samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/index.html As for other German rye breads, while some have a long list of ingredients, none have difficult lists of ingredients. Sadly, the Russian recipes call for various rye malts that seem to be generally unavailable outside Russia... Mike |
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Hi,
What you are quoting is my translation of a table of ingredients from a book by Royter. It is not meant as a recipe, but a comparative table of ingredients. There are translated recipes of Russian bread here and there, but they don't compare to the originals. One book with such recipes is The Art of Russian Cuisine, Author: Anne Volokh, Mavis Manus. I posted a series of Russian language household bread recipes to show how different they are from the professional bread recipes. I don't have the time to translate much, but I translated a very simple recipe (with a few modifications for locations outside the Russian countryside). The original was posted at: http://www.indiana.edu/~pollang/dom_xleb.pdf. My translation follows: Basic rye bread Take one third of the recipe's flour and mix it into the warm water, adding the previously prepared sourdough starter. Carefully knead the dough (sponge), sprinkling flour on top. Cover the sponge and put in a warm place. Make sure it does not occupy more than one-third of its bowl, since it will expand 2-3 times during fermentation. After around 14 hours, when the sponge has soured, deflate and add the remaining flour and salt, knead thoroughly and again let it rise (in its pan) in a warm place. When the dough has risen, bake. (I use 325-350 F. for around 1.5 hours). (This can be varied by adding a quantity of white flour, instead of all rye. You can also use scalded dough or this non-scalded recipe.) Recipe quantities by weight: 8 kilograms of rye flour, 4 litres water, 1/2 kilogram starter, 80 grams salt. I'm sorry if this is not easy to use. There is probably a market for a good, complete translation of a Russian bread book like Royter's or Auerman's, This Lithuanian website has something similar and may be easier: http://ausis.gf.vu.lt/eka/food/bread.html. Ron |
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"Ron" > wrote in message =
oups.com... > 8 kilograms of rye flour > 4 litres water > 1/2 kilogram starter > 80 grams salt. > Take one third of the recipe's flour and mix it into the warm water, adding the previously prepared sourdough starter. Carefully knead the dough (sponge), sprinkling flour on top. Cover the sponge and put in a warm place. Make sure it does not occupy more than one-third of its bowl, since it will expand 2-3 times during fermentation. After around 14 hours, when the sponge has soured, deflate and add the remaining flour and salt, knead thoroughly and again let it rise (in its pan) in a warm place. When the dough has=20 risen, bake. (I use 325-350 F. for around 1.5 hours). < You are a funny guy, Ron. You do temperature in Fahrenheit, but quantities in metric. > This can be varied by adding a quantity of white flour, instead=20 of all rye. You can also use scalded dough or this non-scalded=20 recipe. < > I'm sorry if this is not easy to use ... So far, it looks pretty easy. Could you post a photo of your=20 result? There have been persistent rumors that it is not altogether easy to get rye loaves to rise well and hold together, for instance: http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~croehler/sourdough.htm Why do you suppose that the Detmold folks gyrate in the way that they do, and why does Samartha need so many temperature- regulated water baths (plus a pH meter, and a spreadsheet program to calculate parameters)? http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/DM3/index.html --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com (Desperate to discover that things are simpler than they appear to be) (Good at "Rye-Crisp") |
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Felix Karpfen wrote: > By lurking diligently, I downloaded the translated spreadsheet that > lists the ingredients in a range of Russian (rye) breads from: > > http://www.indiana.edu/~pollang/Russian_bread_table.pdf. > > Unlike the long list of ingredients in German pumpernickel recipes, the > list for Simple Rye (Dark) is encouragingly simple (and likely to be > obtainable in Australia). > > But what about the process? Why not try Borodin/sky recipe? The bread is gorgeous. Sure, all the ingredients could be found in Australia. Simple Rye, as opposite to "improved" breads, is "poor's" bread, with lower porosity and higher crumb humidity and acidity, and as for me, is not as tasty as Borodin and other "zavarka" based rye breads. BTW, on my opinion, this is the reason why you can't find Russian simple rye bread recipes on the Net even in Russian: they are not representatives of Hall of Fame of Russian bread as Borodin or Rizhskij. Concerning Basic bread: I wouldn't use this recipe. Till now I didn't see any recipe with 14 hours souring sponge, maximum 4. Sprinking flour on the top of the sponge will make it sticky as hell. Warm place doesn't say me anything. Rising the dough: how much time? I bake 4 loafs of Borodin bread every two weeks. Last time I have tested with pH-meter the cumulated acidity and have found that with Carl's starter I get the levels of acidity complying with that of the recipe in right times. I have posted detailed, adapted for home baking recipes of Borodinsky http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...e30d99c78dcf08 http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...53e802d4dca2bc I got the pics of the breads last Saturday. If it could encourage you, I can post or send the pictures. Rye malt is available at home brew stores. It is me who has no choice but order it from US or Canada. Think I have encountered very good Australian on-line homebrew store in the past. You can ask at rec.crafts.brewing. Or use barley malt for rizhskij bread. If have question about details I would gladly answer. Cheers. |
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On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 21:38:18 -0600, Mike Avery wrote
(<mailman.0.1123385896.79781.rec.food.sourdough@ma il.otherwhen.com>): > Felix Karpfen wrote: >> >>Unlike the long list of ingredients in German pumpernickel recipes, the >>list for Simple Rye (Dark) is encouragingly simple (and likely to be >>obtainable in Australia). > Russian recipes call for various rye malts that seem to be generally > unavailable outside Russia... I have noted in Hamelman (page 364) a reference to "diastatic malt". That might be better than nothing. However, the Russian "Simple Rye" is true to its name; the listed ingredients are Rye flour (100), yeast cake (0.06), salt (1.5) and oil (1.5). Felix -- Felix Karpfen Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA) |
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On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 16:58:21 -0700, Ron wrote
s.com>): > Hi, > What you are quoting is my translation of a table of ingredients from a > book by Royter. > I was aware that the acknowledged quote was never intended to be a full recipe. And I did also download the other .pdf reference - although I should have known better. I did recognise "xleb" as bread. I was fishing for some existing references geared to non-Russian readers. I considered it totally unreasonable to ask anyone to translate a Russian text. I would have settled for a "computer translation". But the only such program, that I have found, (babelfish - which I have yet to learn how to use) almost certainly cannot handle .pdf files. > It is not meant as a recipe, but a comparative table of > ingredients. There are translated recipes of Russian bread here and > there, but they don't compare to the originals. One book with such > recipes is The Art of Russian Cuisine, Author: Anne Volokh, Mavis > Manus. > That was what I was hoping for. I have also managed to locate: http://www.ruscuisine.com/ which might help. Thank for for this and the other advice in your reply. I believe that your posted recipe fills in the gaps in my subsequently-posted "Westphalian Pumpernickel". Felix -- Felix Karpfen Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA) |
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On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:05:57 -0700, hofer wrote
. com>): > > Felix Karpfen wrote: >> >> Unlike the long list of ingredients in German pumpernickel recipes, the >> list for Simple Rye (Dark) is encouragingly simple (and likely to be >> obtainable in Australia). >> >> But what about the process? > > Why not try Borodin/sky recipe? The bread is gorgeous. Sure, all the > ingredients could be found in Australia. > Simple Rye, as opposite to "improved" breads, is "poor's" bread, with > lower porosity and higher crumb humidity and acidity, I have, of course, read and filed all the posted info on Borodinsky bread. But I am a great believer in learning to walk before I attempt to run. > my opinion, this is the reason why you can't find Russian simple rye > bread recipes on the Net even in Russian: they are not representatives > of Hall of Fame of Russian bread as Borodin or Rizhskij. And that might explain why the German Pumpernickel recipes are much more elaborate. But I want to learn how to handle rye dough first. And I would prefer not to have to make my own malt. > > Think I have encountered very good Australian on-line homebrew store in > the past. You can ask at rec.crafts.brewing. Or use barley malt for > rizhskij bread. I checked, of course. There is an excellent homebrew store 10 minutes drive away. Barley malt - yes (I use it routinely in my homebrews); rye malt - no; try HealthFood stores. And then comes Hamelman, who points to the difference between "diastatic malt" and "non-diastatic malt". Which re-enforces my wish to go "one step at a time". > Concerning Basic bread: I wouldn't use this recipe. Till now I didn't > see any recipe with 14 hours souring sponge, maximum 4. > As mentioned in the follow-up posting by Dick Adams, the Detmold-3Stage addresses this problem. > If have question about details I would gladly answer. Filed for future reference - when I have got that far. Meanwhile, thank you (and Dick Adams) for the followups. Felix -- Felix Karpfen Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA) |
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The strange practice of metric weight but Fahrenheit has a simple
explanation. I just translated the weights from the Russian, so it was easier to just give the metric weight and not covert. But, the temperatures seemed overly hot and were designed for a so-called "Russian oven" (russkaya pech). Therefore, I gave a recommendation of my own. Since I am programmed to use Fahrenheit temperatures, that's what I gave. I, like Leonid, make Borodinsky more often than this type, so I don't have much experience. I just translated a recipe. Being a bit unsure of it, I recommended a similar one from a Lithuanian website in my post. Just for fun, though, I may try the all-rye recipe I translated. However, the only photos I can easily do are cross-sections of slices. That's because I have a scanner, but not a digital camera. Ron |
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> I would have settled for a "computer translation". But the only > such program, that I have found, (babelfish - which I have yet to > learn how to use) almost certainly cannot handle .pdf files. Be careful using Babelfish translation tool. It translates in a word-by-word manner and distorts the source sense. You may get poisoned by a misunderstood recipe. Hire me to avoid it. I am a native Russian speaker living in St. Petersburg, Russia. My rate is 0.06 USD/word. I provide a 30% discount for your first order for translation. PDF file translation (as well as any other file format) is available. Learn more by reading my CV at http://homepage.lanck.net/superexper...rubtsev_cv.htm and contact me ONLY from there by hitting "Contact". Regards, Yuri === Native Russian Translator on ANY subject === http://homepage.lanck.net/superexper...rubtsev_cv.htm === Reasonable rates. Fast turnaroud time. === Felix Karpfen wrote: > On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 16:58:21 -0700, Ron wrote > s.com>): > > > Hi, > > What you are quoting is my translation of a table of ingredients from a > > book by Royter. > > > > I was aware that the acknowledged quote was never intended to be a > full recipe. > > And I did also download the other .pdf reference - although I should > have known better. I did recognise "xleb" as bread. > > I was fishing for some existing references geared to non-Russian > readers. I considered it totally unreasonable to ask anyone to > translate a Russian text. > > I would have settled for a "computer translation". But the only such > program, that I have found, (babelfish - which I have yet to learn how > to use) almost certainly cannot handle .pdf files. > > > It is not meant as a recipe, but a comparative table of > > ingredients. There are translated recipes of Russian bread here and > > there, but they don't compare to the originals. One book with such > > recipes is The Art of Russian Cuisine, Author: Anne Volokh, Mavis > > Manus. > > > That was what I was hoping for. I have also managed to locate: > > http://www.ruscuisine.com/ > > which might help. > > Thank for for this and the other advice in your reply. I believe > that your posted recipe fills in the gaps in my subsequently-posted > "Westphalian Pumpernickel". > > Felix > > -- > Felix Karpfen > Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA) |
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Russian Super Translator wrote:
> >>I would have settled for a "computer translation". But the only >>such program, that I have found, (babelfish - which I have yet to >>learn how to use) almost certainly cannot handle .pdf files. > > > Be careful using Babelfish translation tool. It translates in a > word-by-word manner and distorts the source sense. > You may get poisoned by a misunderstood recipe. > Hire me to avoid it. I am a native Russian speaker living > in St. Petersburg, Russia. My rate is 0.06 USD/word. > I provide a 30% discount for your first order for translation. PDF file > translation (as well as any other file format) is available. > > Learn more by reading my CV at > http://homepage.lanck.net/superexper...rubtsev_cv.htm > and contact me ONLY from there by hitting "Contact". > > Regards, > > Yuri While I acknowledgr Yuri's far greater expertise, there is often a need for a "quick and dirty" translation. Yuri is correct about Babelfish, and I do find it lacking in sense. For Russian, there is a somewhat better option on line: http://translate.ru/eng They (Prompt company) make busuness-grade translators and have that site for direct on-line use, for free. Still can't handle pdf files directly, though. I believe all recent versions of Adobe Acrobat Reader have a Text Select tool. You can use that to copy/paste blocks of text into a translation engine, or into a text file, which you can submit for translation. Dave |
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ProMT translates even worse than Babelfish because it apply only
"General" dictionary for free online translation, besides, the source text size is limited. Yes, they provide "human translation" because they know themselves that their ProMT machine translation is shit. If you need correct and accurate translation - hire me; the super-high quality of translation is guaranteed. Yuri === Native Russian Translator on ANY subject === http://homepage.lanck.net/superexper...rubtsev_cv.htm === Reasonable rates. Fast turnaroud time. === Note: contact me ONLY from my CV webpage (abowe). Dave Bell wrote: > Russian Super Translator wrote: > > > >>I would have settled for a "computer translation". But the only > >>such program, that I have found, (babelfish - which I have yet to > >>learn how to use) almost certainly cannot handle .pdf files. > > > > > > Be careful using Babelfish translation tool. It translates in a > > word-by-word manner and distorts the source sense. > > You may get poisoned by a misunderstood recipe. > > Hire me to avoid it. I am a native Russian speaker living > > in St. Petersburg, Russia. My rate is 0.06 USD/word. > > I provide a 30% discount for your first order for translation. PDF file > > translation (as well as any other file format) is available. > > > > Learn more by reading my CV at > > http://homepage.lanck.net/superexper...rubtsev_cv.htm > > and contact me ONLY from there by hitting "Contact". > > > > Regards, > > > > Yuri > > While I acknowledgr Yuri's far greater expertise, there is often a need > for a "quick and dirty" translation. > > Yuri is correct about Babelfish, and I do find it lacking in sense. For > Russian, there is a somewhat better option on line: > http://translate.ru/eng > They (Prompt company) make busuness-grade translators and have that site > for direct on-line use, for free. > > Still can't handle pdf files directly, though. I believe all recent > versions of Adobe Acrobat Reader have a Text Select tool. You can use > that to copy/paste blocks of text into a translation engine, or into a > text file, which you can submit for translation. > > Dave |
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On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:20:29 +0000, Dave Bell wrote
>): > Russian Super Translator wrote: >> >>>I would have settled for a "computer translation". But the only >>>such program, that I have found, (babelfish - which I have yet to >>>learn how to use) almost certainly cannot handle .pdf files. >> >> >> Be careful using Babelfish translation tool. It translates in a >> word-by-word manner and distorts the source sense. > > While I acknowledgr Yuri's far greater expertise, there is often a need > for a "quick and dirty" translation. > > Yuri is correct about Babelfish, and I do find it lacking in sense. For > Russian, there is a somewhat better option on line: > http://translate.ru/eng My favourite computer translation (from the German Bible) reads: "The ghost is ready but the meat is soft". And I would not expect computers to achieve more when making a translation of Pushkin. > Still can't handle pdf files directly, though. I believe all recent > versions of Adobe Acrobat Reader have a Text Select tool. You can use > that to copy/paste blocks of text into a translation engine, or into a > text file, which you can submit for translation. No Microsoft; no Acrobat Reader (I could get an Acrobat plugin if needed). I have just discovered how to do a "copy-and-paste" on what I now have. I will probably need to fiddle with the character set (to ISO-8859-5?), but this is also doable on my setup. My thanks to both for the advice. Both URLs are flagged for download. Felix -- Felix Karpfen Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA) |
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Felix Karpfen wrote:
> >>Still can't handle pdf files directly, though. I believe all recent >>versions of Adobe Acrobat Reader have a Text Select tool. You can use >>that to copy/paste blocks of text into a translation engine, or into a >>text file, which you can submit for translation. > > > No Microsoft; no Acrobat Reader If that's still an issue, get the Linux version for Acrobat Reader. Version 7.0+ should handle the Russian characters and has the text select tool. Samartha |
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