Well, this weekend I put Craig's "no-kneading kneaded" concept--as posted by
Mike--to the test. And I didn't even use the test recipe I'd posted
previously, I ended up using my Francesi recipe (a fav).
Find it he
(http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...h/francesi.htm).

And, to make it even more difficult, an unremembered commitment required me
to put the dough in the reefer for about 4-hours right after the initial
mixing and before the first fold. Given the latitude that Mike gave us for
hydration and the number of folds, I used about 70% hydration and 4-folds.

And I'll be damned if it didn't make a pair of perfectly edible loaves!
They were excellent and every bit as good as the ones that get 20 min. of
tender ministrations from my trusty KitchenAid (except for the idiot oven
driver, who didn't watch the clock and scorched 'em a bit...).

After lusting for a dough mixer for many years, I finally sprung for one
last year so that I might better make those wonderful Coccodrillo loaves
that 'WCSJohn' kept bragging about on the NG. I got it, and converted all
of my recipes to make use of it. And now I'm finding that it was all a big
bloody lie! (:-o)!

Anybody wanna buy a slightly used KA mixer?


Later all,
Dusty

I just this week also, and it was Mike's post that inspired me to wake up
the long dormant starter. Has not been used or touched since Thanks Giving.
Any way I took 10 Grams of that old refrigerated Carl's added 20 grams AP
flour and 20 grams water. Was planning on an 8 hour feeding but got involved
socially and forgot it until the next morning about 19 hours. It was nicely
working, dropped it in a larger container and well ended up Monday morning
with a nice bucket of active starter.
I decided to give a 75% hydration straight bread a try. I only ever do one
loaf at a time as it is just me and the Wife and 2 loaves is to much.
Using the 30% inoculation theory I took 240 grams of 100% hydration starter,
added 355 grams KA bread flour and 217 grams tepid water, and 1 teaspoon of
salt. I mixed it just slightly with a wooden spoon and let it rest for the
45 minutes, then 3 folds. During the 2nd fold I detected what I thought were
unincorporated flour chunks so I crushed them with my fingers and did the
fold.
The dough did improve with each folding. It was a wet sticky mess however. I
managed the folds with the help of the bench scraper but the final shaping
was difficult. I found wet hands helped.
So I set my malformed loaf in the box to rise the final time. I let it go 3
hours maybe a bit more. Did not look like it rose much, actually it spread
out. Noticing that, along the way ,I used the remaining starter to do a
conventional 65% loaf in the KA mixer as I had a meal (seafood stew)
planned for the bread, and store bought was not going to do it.
So after the 3 hours I popped that wet low blob onto the stone at preheated
525, turned it down in about 4 minutes to 450. At 13 minutes I opened the
door to rotate the loaf and I was shocked. That flat blob sprung 3 maybe 4
fold. The resulting bread was great, Finally the HUGE holes that have evaded
me to this point. I baked the other one also and gave it to a neighbor. See
a photo at the following link
http://www.a1sewingmachine.com/images/loaf3.jpg

Now, finally, the question. Does anyone have any advise on handling/shaping
this glop? The loaf was rather irregular (ugly) but it was never going to
the fair to be judged, but I would like to be able to create an attractive
package.

--
Ron Anderson
A1 Sewing Machine
PO Box 60
Sand Lake, NY 12153
518-469-5133
http://www.a1sewingmachine.com
"Dusty Bleher" wrote in message
...
Well, this weekend I put Craig's "no-kneading kneaded" concept--as posted
by Mike--to the test. And I didn't even use the test recipe I'd posted
previously, I ended up using my Francesi recipe (a fav).
Find it he
(http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...h/francesi.htm).

And, to make it even more difficult, an unremembered commitment required
me to put the dough in the reefer for about 4-hours right after the
initial mixing and before the first fold. Given the latitude that Mike
gave us for hydration and the number of folds, I used about 70% hydration
and 4-folds.

And I'll be damned if it didn't make a pair of perfectly edible loaves!
They were excellent and every bit as good as the ones that get 20 min. of
tender ministrations from my trusty KitchenAid (except for the idiot oven
driver, who didn't watch the clock and scorched 'em a bit...).

After lusting for a dough mixer for many years, I finally sprung for one
last year so that I might better make those wonderful Coccodrillo loaves
that 'WCSJohn' kept bragging about on the NG. I got it, and converted all
of my recipes to make use of it. And now I'm finding that it was all a
big bloody lie! (:-o)!

Anybody wanna buy a slightly used KA mixer?


Later all,
Dusty

"Ron Anderson" wrote in message
...
I just this week also, and it was Mike's post that inspired me to wake up
the long dormant starter. Has not been used or touched since Thanks Giving.
....
I decided to give a 75% hydration straight bread a try.
....
The dough did improve with each folding. It was a wet sticky mess however.
I managed the folds with the help of the bench scraper but the final
shaping was difficult. I found wet hands helped.
Yeah, I ran into this as well. A bench knife as well as adding a bit of
flour to the table was most helpful, as well as dusting the outside when it
got too unruly.

So I set my malformed loaf in the box to rise the final time. I let it go
3
I'd give it another fold or two. As Mike had pointed out, "3" isn't a magic
number, only a reference. The difference in the condition of the dough
between the third and forth fold was pretty amazing.

Then, when I got done (with the folding part), I rolled the dough on a
floured surface (to prevent sticking) into a short loaf. Mine, at least,
weren't "malformed" or otherwise odd looking at all.

hours maybe a bit more. Did not look like it rose much, actually it spread
Like yours, mine didn't seem to do much on the final rise--although it
probably did double...albeit mostly in width. However, it surely did spring
up just fine when it went into the oven (I bake cold start).

My next noKnead project is going to be a revision of my Coccodrillo, and
losing the 20-min of power mixing that the recipe currently requires (and
*the* reason that I got that mixer as well). Ya can read all about it he
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...occodrillo.htm.

For me, this "noKnead" process has been somewhat of a revelation! The
thought of tossing 30# of mixer and related clutter out of the RV is a real
breath of fresh air. Not to mention recovering some precious space and
getting closer to my goal of simplifying things as I go...


Later all,
Dusty
....

"Dusty Bleher" wrote in message
...

My next noKnead project is going to be a revision of my Coccodrillo, and
losing the 20-min of power mixing that the recipe currently requires (and
*the* reason that I got that mixer as well). Ya can read all about it he
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...occodrillo.htm.

For me, this "noKnead" process has been somewhat of a revelation! The thought
of tossing 30# of mixer and related clutter out of the RV is a real breath of
fresh air. Not to mention recovering some precious space and getting closer
to my goal of simplifying things as I go...


Dusty:

Just about three years ago my Kitchen Aid mixer died. At the time it died I was
preparing to move from Massachusetts to Louisiana and decided to put off having
the mixer repaired until I got settled in Louisiana. With all I had going on
with the renovating my house, etc. I kept putting off having the mixer repaired.
During that time I continued to make bread. I kind of stumbled on to a technique
more or less like what Mike described. I would mix my dough with all but a cup
or so of the flour and then work the remaining flour into the dough by sort of
stretching, folding, and sprinkling the dough with flour until the dough seemed
to be the right consistency. Initially I would start kneading once the dough
came together enough to allow for kneading. Over time the kneading time worked
it's way down to nothing. I would just stop the stretching and folding (I guess
stretching and folding is a form of kneading) once the flour was incorporated.
Over the last few months I've started folding a few times during the initial
fermentation phase and have been happy with the results. I'm not sure that the
results are better than when I was kneading the dough either by hand or machine,
but they are certainly just as good.

After reading Mike's post I tried jacking up the hydration of my bread from
about 65% to 70% and adding a few more folds during the initial rise. The dough
had a structure such that it was much easier to shape than any other dough I've
made by hand at 70% hydration.

I still haven't fixed the mixer. I doubt I ever will. I like the idea of
depending on one less machine.

-Mike

"Mike Pearce" wrote in message
news:PGPFe.68839$ro.25147@fed1read02...



I still haven't fixed the mixer. I doubt I ever will. I like the idea of
depending on one less machine.

I love the idea of not usinga mixer but I had to start to use one because of
arthritis in my fingers. It was either the mixer or commercial bread.

There's no contest.

Mary

-Mike

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"Mike Pearce" wrote in message

I still haven't fixed the mixer. I doubt I ever will. I like the idea of
depending on one less machine.

I love the idea of not usinga mixer but I had to start to use one because of
arthritis in my fingers. It was either the mixer or commercial bread.

There's no contest.

Mary

Were I in your situation I'd do the same thing.

I consider it somewhat of a blessing that my mixer broke. I really enjoy the
process of making bread by hand.

Good luck with your arthritis. My mother has struggled with arthritis for years.
When her arthritis is acting up she has trouble just lifting pans off the stove.

-Mike

"Mike Pearce" wrote in message
news:EHXFe.68859$ro.31862@fed1read02...
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"Mike Pearce" wrote in message

I still haven't fixed the mixer. I doubt I ever will. I like the idea of
depending on one less machine.

I love the idea of not usinga mixer but I had to start to use one because
of arthritis in my fingers. It was either the mixer or commercial bread.

There's no contest.

Mary

Were I in your situation I'd do the same thing.

I consider it somewhat of a blessing that my mixer broke. I really enjoy
the process of making bread by hand.

Good luck with your arthritis. My mother has struggled with arthritis for
years. When her arthritis is acting up she has trouble just lifting pans
off the stove.

Yes - sometimes I can't turn the page of a magazine!

I had the joy of kneading for forty years so I haven't missed out :-) And I
still shape by hand.

Mary

-Mike

"Mike Pearce" wrote in message =
news:EHXFe.68859$ro.31862@fed1read02...

... I consider it somewhat of a blessing that my mixer broke. I really =
enjoy the=20
process of making bread by hand ...

Consider to fix your mixer. Then your preference could be taken as =
objective.

Hey maybe your car will break. Then you could get some better exercise.

And the TV... That improves intelligence.

Etc.

--
Dicky

"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...

"Mike Pearce" wrote:

... I consider it somewhat of a blessing that my mixer broke. I really enjoy
the
process of making bread by hand ...

Consider to fix your mixer. Then your preference could be taken as objective.

Well, prior to my mixer breaking I'd been making bread for years using a mixer.
Does that count or should I be doing side by side comparisons?

From time to time I consider having my mixer repaired but can't come up with a
better reason than it's broken and it should be fixed. I just don't see myself
using it more than a couple of time a year at most. What I should really do is
fix it and sell it or give it away.


Hey maybe your car will break. Then you could get some better exercise.

And the TV... That improves intelligence.

Etc.

Maybe I'll get really lucky and my house will break and I'll get to learn to
live off the land.

-Mike

"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...

"Mike Pearce" wrote in message
news:EHXFe.68859$ro.31862@fed1read02...

... I consider it somewhat of a blessing that my mixer broke. I really
enjoy the
process of making bread by hand ...

Consider to fix your mixer. Then your preference could be taken as
objective.

Cruel - but true.

Hey maybe your car will break. Then you could get some better exercise.

Yes.

And the TV... That improves intelligence.

Hmm. Not sure about that. We haven't a television ... by choice.

Mary

"Mike Pearce" wrote in message
news:UW5Ge.68888$ro.61069@fed1read02...
"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...

"Mike Pearce" wrote:

... I consider it somewhat of a blessing that my mixer broke. I really
enjoy the
process of making bread by hand ...

Consider to fix your mixer. Then your preference could be taken as
objective.

Well, prior to my mixer breaking I'd been making bread for years using a
mixer. Does that count or should I be doing side by side comparisons?

From time to time I consider having my mixer repaired but can't come up
with a better reason than it's broken and it should be fixed. I just don't
see myself using it more than a couple of time a year at most. What I
should really do is fix it and sell it or give it away.


Hey maybe your car will break. Then you could get some better exercise.

And the TV... That improves intelligence.

Etc.

Maybe I'll get really lucky and my house will break and I'll get to learn
to live off the land.

Yup. We don't have house or contents insurance and considered the result of
our recklessness very carefully.

We still didn't renew.

Mary



-Mike

"Mike Pearce" wrote in message=20
news:UW5Ge.68888$ro.61069@fed1read02...

Well, prior to my mixer breaking I'd been making bread for years using =
a mixer.=20
Does that count or should I be doing side by side comparisons?

Well, then, you know that I am for keeping notes, and particularly for =
keeping
a photographic record. Then you are home free when it comes time to =
compare
or illustrate or make a point.=20

From time to time I consider having my mixer repaired but can't come =
up with a=20
better reason than it's broken and it should be fixed. I just don't =
see myself=20
using it more than a couple of time a year at most. What I should =
really do is=20
fix it and sell it or give it away.

Fixing is usually a matter of replacing a $10 nylon pinion which serves =
as a=20
"mechanical fuse", namely it breaks first and is cheap, and easy to =
replace.

Of course, bakers are not rocket scientists, and opening an appliance is =
a bit
of a challenge.

--
Dicky

"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...

"Mike Pearce" wrote in message
news:UW5Ge.68888$ro.61069@fed1read02...

Well, prior to my mixer breaking I'd been making bread for years using a
mixer.
Does that count or should I be doing side by side comparisons?

Well, then, you know that I am for keeping notes, and particularly for
keeping
a photographic record. Then you are home free when it comes time to
compare
or illustrate or make a point.

From time to time I consider having my mixer repaired but can't come up
with a
better reason than it's broken and it should be fixed. I just don't see
myself
using it more than a couple of time a year at most. What I should really
do is
fix it and sell it or give it away.

Fixing is usually a matter of replacing a $10 nylon pinion which serves as a
"mechanical fuse", namely it breaks first and is cheap, and easy to replace.

Of course, bakers are not rocket scientists, and opening an appliance is a
bit
of a challenge.

I've never found one to be challenging.

I just ask Spouse.

Mary

--
Dicky

For me, this "noKnead" process has been somewhat of a revelation! The
thought of tossing 30# of mixer and related clutter out of the RV is a real
breath of fresh air

IMO its an illusion...
For high hydration dough mechanical development by mixing is not
important as the dough is loose, The subsequent long rests and dough
manipulations can confer the same dough development .
That is why you can get away with minimal kneading but with autolysis.
and plenty of rests. There is nothing spectacular there ,
Many old time bakers had been doing that for years .
Besides people who employ such technique don't even care to weigh the
dough but just estimate it by looking at the dough bulk during
dividing and molding process.
Judging by 'eye 'is subjective assessment and erroneous .

They are looking at an illusion that bread looks bigger by appearance
as they don't measure their bread after baking in terms specific
bread volume (which has a units of cubic centimeter per gram.).
In fact I had the same experience in the past (when I was still new in
breadbaking ) by just looking casually at the resulting bread..
But I was knocked down from my false impression when I started
weighing the resulting bread and calculated its bulk density.
Roy

"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...

"Mike Pearce" wrote:

From time to time I consider having my mixer repaired but can't come up with
a
better reason than it's broken and it should be fixed. I just don't see
myself
using it more than a couple of time a year at most. What I should really do
is
fix it and sell it or give it away.

Fixing is usually a matter of replacing a $10 nylon pinion which serves as a
"mechanical fuse", namely it breaks first and is cheap, and easy to replace.

When it broke I was hoping it was the pinion. I'd read about them breaking and
thought I might get away with a simple solution for the broken mixer, but the
pinion wasn't broken.

Thanks,
-Mike