Last time, I finished with these words....


Put the roughly mixed dough into containers and let them sit 45
minutes. Then dump out the dough onto a work table. Spread the dough
out until its a rectangle about 3" thick. Then fold in the edges of
the bread - top and bottom, left and wsummer.

Which is what told me it was time to rest. I was typoing badly....
Confirmation was found when I sent the message instead of saving it as a
draft.....

Of course, the text should have read,
Put the roughly mixed dough into containers and let them sit 45
minutes. Then dump out the dough onto a work table. Spread the dough
out until its a rectangle about 3" thick. Then fold in the edges of the
bread - top and bottom, left and bottom.

And now on to the next, and semi-final, installment in the saga.

Craig told me that there are three powerful dough strenghening
mechanisms at work. Simple hydration, or getting the flour wet.
Fermentation, which is the yeast producing gas which stretches the
dough, and then the fold.

Once the dough is folded, put it back into the fermenting vessel, and
let it rest another 45 minutes. Repeat the fold. Put it back into the
vessel.

45 minutes later, he told me to give it a final fold, and then to let it
rise again.

Each time you do this, the dough will get better. After the second
fold, it will be as good as what you get out of your mixer, the third
time will be much better than that.

Once the dough has risen again, its time to scale and form it.

I was skeptical, but his approach had a few things going for it. I
could handle it physically without a mixer and without dying in the
process. It offered me a chance to deliver bread to the market. It
promised my bread would be better than ever before.

So, I did it.

I made 5 batches of bread. My sourdough flax seed bread, my sourdough
olive bread, my Black Canyon Sourdough (similar to San Francisco
Sourdough, but made here instead of there), my light wheat - a poolish
based half wheat half white flour bread, and my sourdough raisin bread.

He had told me that if I had seeds or nuts or other stuff in the dough,
I should add it at the start. And since the dough development would be
largely through chemical action rather than the physical action of a
mixer, that made sense. When a mixer is used, the seeds can cut the
gluten as fast as its being developed.

So, I started mixing. After the first 45 minutes, some of the doughs
hadn't risen at all, but I went ahead with the process anyway. The
doughs didn't look very impressive after the first 45 minutes. They
looked really nice after the second 45 minutes, and all of them had
risen at least some, and most had doubled in size. I toyed with not
giving them the next fold and decided, no, I needed to stick with the
program.

After the third 45 minutes, all of them were rising nicely and were very
well developed. Truly, some of the nicest doughs I'd ever made. The
flax seed bread, the olive bread, and the raisin bread all had their
extra ingredients more evenly distributed than ever before, probably
since they were in the bread from the very onset of
mixing. Also, when I had added raisins too early in the mix in the
past, the mixer tended to turn them to mush and they'd vanish vanish.
These stayed together and were identifiable as raisins.

The 20 loaf batches were in two 5-gallon buckets each, the 12 loaf
batches were in single buckets. Oddly enough, over the course of the
evening, all the doughs wound up getting folded one right after another.

Folding two buckets of dough didn't take very long, and the initial
mixing was pretty easy.

After the doughs rose, I scaled them and formed all of them, except for
the raisin bread, into boules. Next time, I'll do some batards as
well. The raisin bread's dough was rolled out, brushed with butter,
sprinkled with brown sugar and cinnamon, rolled and put into bread
pans. Usually this bread took 12 hours to complete its last rise. This
time, it took less than 3 hours.

I baked the olive loaf and flax seed bread first. Despite good rises, I
also got great oven spring in the boules I had made. I had an
mini-olive loaf I'd made with excess dough and liked it a lot, and the
customers were raving. The flax seed was better risen than usually, and
the seeds were very nicely distributed.

Then the owner of the bakery I was renting walked in and needed the
ovens for her market offerings, so the rest of the dough sat around the
bakery, over proofing. I couldn't complain, after all, she had told me
she needed the bakery at 6:00 AM, and I was the one who was running
late. Two hours later, baking resumed.

The doughs were, by this point, overrisen. I didn't have much hope that
they could be salvaged. Some of the doughs were beyond hope, but most
of them made decent breads. To me, this was a real tribute to the new
bread making techniques. The raisin was exceptional, despite being held
too long, as was the Black Canyon Sourdough. I had made the Black
Canyon Sourdough with a starter that is usually on the milder side.
This time it was nicely assertive. I don't know why. The longer final
rise? The phase of the moon?

Between starting late, losing some time in the evening (today's word of
the day is "Mis en place"
http://www.reluctantgourmet.com/mis_en_place.htm), and losing two hours
in the morning, the last of the breads were coolk about the time the
market ended.

Later, I was talking to Lynn, the owner of the bakery and told her I
don't care if she gets a mixer back because I won't be using it. She
was stunned.

As Craig said, it was no harder than using a mixer, the results were
better, and it seemed to take less time overall.

I am just amazed and really excited about the no-knead/fold approach.

I did notice that the higher hydration breads were easier to mix and
rose better. No surprise there, I've know that for years, but I haven't
been able to handle wetter doughs. As a result, I'm bumping the
hydration on my breads by 10% per seek until I've gone too far. (I'll
just bump the Challah and Raisin Bread 5% per week. The raisin is a
challah base, and too wet a challah could be a problem.)

The sales at the market weren't quite where we wanted them. In addition
to the breads, I used Lynn's KitchenAid to make some Kolaches. Sadly,
too few people had seen Kolaches, so most of them came home with us.
The breads came out late, so that also cut into sales.

However, ALL the merchants at the market said sales were down. The city
had a big parade that passed by the market, but the crowds who came
downtown weren't interested in buying. They milled through, ate
samples, and left.

The next installment will be next Monday when I've had a chance to
repeat the experiment with wetter doughs.

Thanks again to Craig,
Mike

"Mike Avery" is publishing sequential chapters.

Why not link some photos so we can decide whether it may
be worth while to read all that prose?

So far it seems that you, Mike Avery, are not so interested to
see bread rise well as I am, and that you are not so avid
a fan of the big holes as some are. But maybe you are about
to change?

These old eyes read slowly, but still see pictures pretty quick?
So could you kindly oblige with graphics?

Thanks.

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:

Why not link some photos so we can decide whether it may
be worth while to read all that prose?


Well, the first loaves are all sold. And probably eaten. The later
loaves weren't as nice as the first because they had over risen, so
there's no point in photographing them. Also, I didn't have a camera at
the bakery. So, it ain't happening. At least, not this week.

So far it seems that you, Mike Avery, are not so interested to
see bread rise well as I am, and that you are not so avid
a fan of the big holes as some are. But maybe you are about
to change?


"Rise well" is a rather vague term. I prefer my bread to be something I
can sink my teeth into, something I need to chew. Not to be cotton
candy. I think my bread has always been well risen. Whether or not
that meets your definition.

These old eyes read slowly, but still see pictures pretty quick?
So could you kindly oblige with graphics?


Maybe next week.

Mike

Great story. Thanks, Mike.

I've clipped it, and will be studying your methods...(:-o)!

Thanks again,
Dusty

"Mike Avery" wrote in message
news:mailman.8.1121698491.12629.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
Last time, I finished with these words....
....

Mike Avery wrote:

The next installment will be next Monday when I've had a chance to
repeat the experiment with wetter doughs.

Thanks again to Craig,
Mike


i agree with Ed... great story. was starting my bread this morning, and
decided to try the method related to you by the BBHMM (big bread high
mucky muck). the texture and taste were amazing. tomorrow i am going
to do another loaf and even take pics-(just for you Dick )

thanks for taking the time to relate it to the group.

Dan w

dan w wrote:
Mike Avery wrote:

The next installment will be next Monday when I've had a chance to
repeat the experiment with wetter doughs.

Thanks again to Craig,
Mike


i agree with Ed... great story. was starting my bread this morning, and
decided to try the method related to you by the BBHMM (big bread high
mucky muck). the texture and taste were amazing. tomorrow i am going
to do another loaf and even take pics-(just for you Dick )

thanks for taking the time to relate it to the group.

Dan w
ok here are the pics:
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...der_id=1401116

i stored the folded dough in the bowl above (pic 2), with oiled plastic
wrap on top of dough. i removed 1C bf from my usual 5C recipe, to
increase the hydration level. found dough difficult to work with. made
one batard and on in bread pan. not much oven spring, although i
believe it was at max proof when i put in oven. i also ran out of
parchment paper and when i put in batard to (hot)oven, it deflated some.
taste and texture were very good, some of the best i have made to
date. our days are hot here, and my kitchen is about 75º, so may be
having an effect on proof times. going to add 1/2C bf to this next
time, to see if it will bring better shaping and handling.

happy baking

Dan w

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:54:53 -0600, Mike Avery wrote
(mailman.8.1121698491.12629.rec.food.sourdough@ma il.otherwhen.com):

The next installment will be next Monday when I've had a chance to
repeat the experiment with wetter doughs.

Comments from a geriatric Johnny-come-lately home baker:

The missing information in this eye-opening saga (from my point of
view) is the ambient temperature.

Given that our indoor (uncontrolled) room temperatures can be anywhere
between 55°F (winter) and 85°F (summer), some additional information
would be welcome.

Felix Karpfen

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Felix Karpfen wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:54:53 -0600, Mike Avery wrote
(mailman.8.1121698491.12629.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com):



The next installment will be next Monday when I've had a chance to
repeat the experiment with wetter doughs.



Comments from a geriatric Johnny-come-lately home baker:

The missing information in this eye-opening saga (from my point of
view) is the ambient temperature.

Given that our indoor (uncontrolled) room temperatures can be anywhere
between 55°F (winter) and 85°F (summer), some additional information
would be welcome.

Felix Karpfen



It was around 78F.

Mike

Mike,

I tried the technique you described by basically doing 3 flatten and
folds with no prior kneading.
Impressive. I would be hard pressed to tell these loaves from other
ones I bake using 5 to 10 minutes of hardy kneading. Remarkably, the
final bread was SOFT. Very delicate. I really like these loaves.

I used Bahrain starter that Slim Langer gave me (Thanks Slim!!)

Photos are at this link including a crumb scan. (on the way to a meeing
this morning, I dropped a slice of bread on a coworker's desk with a
post-it "please scan" but forget to ask him to brush the cornmeal away.
He did better job than I would have done and then said "good bread",
but this is the guy that after eating Kalamata olive bread made the
comment "I didn't care much for the raisens":

http://www.skideezie.com/noneed/NKB.html

Hey! You got the jump on me, Ed. (well done!)

I transcribed Mike's post, shortened it, and posted it he
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...es/noknead.htm

Given that we're moving into an RV, being able to make my SD--and not having
to drag along a mixer--is quite high on my list of "things to do...".

Thanks, Mike, for posting your adventures. I only hope that I've faithfully
presented what you'd posted...

Dusty

"Ed Bechtel" wrote in message
ups.com...
Mike,

I tried the technique you described by basically doing 3 flatten and
folds with no prior kneading.
Impressive. I would be hard pressed to tell these loaves from other
ones I bake using 5 to 10 minutes of hardy kneading. Remarkably, the
final bread was SOFT. Very delicate. I really like these loaves.
....

Dusty Bleher wrote:

Hey! You got the jump on me, Ed. (well done!)

I transcribed Mike's post, shortened it, and posted it he
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...es/noknead.htm


Comments on your edits....

Craig shoots for 95% hydration on some breads, not all. The technique
has worked with doughs as high as 95% hydration and as low as 55%.

The 3" thick was based on a 35 pound blob of dough being removed from a
5 gallon bucket. It started out about a foot thick, so spread it until
its around 1/4 its original thickness.

When you put the folded dough back into the rising container, do so with
the fold side down.

It wasn't the fluff you removed, it was the color and spirit.....

The number of folds depend upon the dough. Some are fine with two
folds, some need five. Craig was trying to get me past a hurdle, namely
5 batches of bread by morning.

Mike

"Mike Avery" wrote in message =
news:mailman.5.1121966492.34082.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...

The technique (stretch and fold) has worked with doughs as=20
high as 95% hydration and as low as 55%.

It seems to me that stretching and folding 55%-hydration dough
would come pretty close to conventional kneading.

At 95%, it might seem like ghouls luxuriating in graveyard slime.

Ed Bechtel wrote:
I would be hard pressed to tell these loaves from other
ones I bake using 5 to 10 minutes of hardy kneading. Remarkably, the
final bread was SOFT. Very delicate. I really like these loaves.

I used Bahrain starter that Slim Langer gave me (Thanks Slim!!)


You're welcome Ed. I like the Acme SF culture you sent to me & those
are some nice looking loaves you've baked! G

Slim

"Mike Avery" wrote in message
news:mailman.5.1121966492.34082.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
....
Comments on your edits....

Craig shoots for 95% hydration on some breads, not all. The technique has
worked with doughs as high as 95% hydration and as low as 55%.
Ah, ha! Okay, I'll change that. I'll start with the hydration that example
recipe originally had...

The 3" thick was based on a 35 pound blob of dough being removed from a 5
gallon bucket. It started out about a foot thick, so spread it until its
around 1/4 its original thickness.
Hmmmm. Now that's gonna be harder to quantify...(:-o)!

When you put the folded dough back into the rising container, do so with
the fold side down.
Noted. Tnx.

It wasn't the fluff you removed, it was the color and spirit.....
Awwww.... I want folks to try this method. It wuz just that I thought
4-pages was a bit too intimidating for most folks. I was shooting for short
and to the point (something I have real difficulty doing (:-o)!).

The number of folds depend upon the dough. Some are fine with two folds,
some need five. Craig was trying to get me past a hurdle, namely
Any handy guide or ROT (Rule Of Thumb) that one should use to determine how
many foldings are needed?

Finally, in general, this "new" method seems to make sense...especially in
light of WCSJohn's S&F technique when applied to very high hydration dough's
like Coccodrillo. I've never been able to figure out just how it does what
it does, but I darn sure know that it gets some mighty fine results.


L8r all,
Dusty
....