"Will" wrote in message
news:mailman.0.1121536452.12629.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
....
Dusty,

Now that you've conquered the tortillas and hence the relatives, an
opportunity remains: the beans g... I had another look at your site
(lotsa good stuff there by the way... even more than the last time I
visited)

Back to the beans.

They are like dough. The flavor will develop and mature if you give them
time. A two or three day cool soak before cooking works wonders. Makes
them sweeter. I don't know why, I think the beans are fooled into thinking
they are supposed to germinate so the latent enzymes wake up. Anyway...
they improve quite a bit. You can taste the difference between an ordinary
soaked bean and an "aged" soaked bean.
What a wonderful and interesting idea! I'd not heard that from anyone
before.

I do know that sprouting things does indeed release some of the enzymes. So
this certainly makes some sense. Methinks I'm gonna try a small batch
starting tonight.

Just let them soak in cold tap-water for a couple of days...right? And then
cook 'em in the usual manner?

Thanks, Will. I'm gonna give that a shot...

Dusty



Will

Hi Roy & all;

"Roy" wrote in message
oups.com...
BTW, I read your recipe for flour tortilla, which IMO contains much
baking powder; similar to what is applied for cake making.
Okay. I think I understand. FWIW; I didn't invent that proportion, I
simply averaged what I found in some dozen or so similar recipes. It seemed
fairly consistent across the sample that I took. But, in the interest of
finding out exactly how this works, I'll give that a shot in a future
build...tnx for the tip!

I don't see the point when the industrial wheat tortilla is made with
onlyof one and half to two teaspoon for your flour measure. The
industry is using the commercial grade baking powder or they added the
components themselves composed of acid sodium pyrophosphate ( SAPP
28) and sodium bicarbonate( fine granular form it will be robust to
such processing methods.

Are you using the homemade type?..If so they are very fast acting that
Nope. Regular OTS stuff; fresh from a container of: "Calumet"

the moment you let the dough rest most of the aerating power is already
lost. The time you add the water to the dough mixture it will react
instantly and preferably should be baked as soon as possible..
Okay. Got that. But then how do I let it "rest", as someone had described
previously in this thread, to permit the flour to absorb the water? Don't
do it?

I don't know where that particular wheat tortilla recipe comes from
I don't know either, cuz my recipe is for a plain (white) flour tortilla.
I've tried the WW and didn't like it as much.

or the author who created it was using the expired baking powderg
Just checked: 22 Mar '06 ... s/b okay donchathink?

That is the possible reason of the fault you mentioned in your earlier
post, that your baking powder wheat tortillas taste odd and had
yellowish color.
It was likely an alkaline dough
Like I said, some good tips, so I'm likely to give 'em a try RSN. But then
again, my SD one's came out so great, why bother...(:-o)!

Thanks again!


Later all,
Dusty

Roy

On Saturday, July 16, 2005, at 05:13 PM, Dusty Bleher wrote:

Just let them soak in cold tap-water for a couple of days...right?
And then
cook 'em in the usual manner?


Yep. I usually cook mine in a small crock pot since I like them cooked
slow and low. I also have this tendency to macerate them at the end so
I can have them as a puree.

The wife's favorite summer dinner is pintos, corn with toasted ground
cumin, good flour tortillas, and a cold beer (or two).

Will

Dusty Bleher wrote:
Hi Roy & all;

Are you using the homemade type?..If so they are very fast acting that

Nope. Regular OTS stuff; fresh from a container of: "Calumet"

the moment you let the dough rest most of the aerating power is already
lost. The time you add the water to the dough mixture it will react
instantly and preferably should be baked as soon as possible..

Okay. Got that. But then how do I let it "rest", as someone had described
previously in this thread, to permit the flour to absorb the water? Don't
do it?

The homemade baking powder Roy refers to is cream or tartar (tartaric
acid) and baking soda (sodium bicarbonate.) The OTS Double Acting powder
contains both the above and sodium acid pyrophosphate, with additional
soda. The SAPP doesn't release any acid until it is heated, resulting in
additional rise in the baking stage. SAPP and soda can be let rest
without losing its leavening power...

Dave

Roy wrote:
The
industry is using the commercial grade baking powder or they added the
components themselves composed of acid sodium pyrophosphate ( SAPP
28) and sodium bicarbonate( fine granular form it will be robust to
such processing methods.

Roy

Any suggestions on where to purchase SAPP and/or monocalcium sulfate in
home-use quantities? I can only find a single source of commercial
corn-free double acting baking powder (Ener-G Foods), and it's both
expensive and fairly long lead ordering. Seems like I could blend my
own, even without the obligatory starch extender (although I'd need to
adjust my usage downwards a bit, inthat case.)

Dave

"Will" wrote in message
news:mailman.0.1121536452.12629.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
....
Back to the beans.

They are like dough. The flavor will develop and mature if you give them
time. A two or three day cool soak before cooking works wonders.
Okay. I'm soaking 'em, Will. So, which is it? Two days or three? What's
the diff? Also, do they cook any different (read: faster)?

This is gonna be interesting...(:-o)!


Dusty

Dusty Bleher wrote:
"Will" wrote in message
news:mailman.0.1121536452.12629.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
...

Back to the beans.

They are like dough. The flavor will develop and mature if you give them
time. A two or three day cool soak before cooking works wonders.

Okay. I'm soaking 'em, Will. So, which is it? Two days or three? What's
the diff? Also, do they cook any different (read: faster)?

I believe they will cook faster, after soaking. Hell, that's the only
reason I knew for soaking them! I'll definately have to try a longer
soak, next batch. I made quite a series of attempts, trying to come
close to the sweet, smoky, black beans at El Pollo Loco. Now I'll be
back to the "lab"!

Dave

Any suggestions on where to purchase SAPP and/or monocalcium sulfate in
home-use quantities? I can only find a single source of commercial
corn-free double acting baking powder (Ener-G Foods), and it's both
expensive and fairly long lead ordering. Seems like I could blend my
own, even without the obligatory starch extender (although I'd need to
adjust my usage downwards a bit, inthat case.)

Hello Dave,
Hmmn I am not sure...if you can get this food grade chemical OTC. But
give it a tryg.
But I hope you won't mind for a correction; acid sodium pyrophosphate
had a double reaction, first it reacts during the dough stage or
preparation and further on the oven side( baking process).
The number after the SAPP signifies roughly the reaction rate;
You should be aware of such numbers as some suppliers/retailers got
mixed up with it.
The commonly used baking powder grade is an average speed material; not
too slow and not too fast, that is SAPP 28, if the number goes higher
say 36 that is moderately fast and good only for cake donuts.Meanwhile
the slower SAPP22 and below are for frozen dough application.
. I know a well known supplier,in which I bought tons of my
chemical leavening acids for my production of bakery prepared mixes
several years back.
It is Budenheim of Germany They have all the kinds of phosphates being
used in chemical leavening industry as well as food stabilizers.
Ewrc.
http://www.cfb-budenheim.de/dbw/public_cfb/Homepage/$frameset/Start
Previously ....
I bought from that supplier ton quantities of monocalcium phosphate
monohydrate, three different classes of acidic SAPP; namely SAPP
22,SAPP 28 and SAPP 36-40, dicalcum phosphate, sodium aluminum
phosphate., disodium phosphate and tetrasodium pyrophosphate In my
experience with Budenheim they suppled the lowest priced material with
the same specification as the higher prices products from Stauffer
Chemicals, Monsanto,Albright Wilson.
These are my supplier for sodium bicarbonate
http://www.brunnermond.com/whatfor/AppsFood.pdf
http://www.ahperformance.com/index.asp
The cheapest SAPP baking powder grade is from Korea and China.
If you want to buy a bottle of it say a kilogram quantity you should
try contacting those suppliers if they want to retail. Because IIRC,
the smallest quantity that I bought from them for pilot scale product
development trials was a 25 kg bag.
By the way these technical papers ( previously )r on tortilla
leavening agents which might be of interest to the people here which
was in my file and these is the link for the scientifically minded
TORTILLEROSgrin
http://www.aaccnet.org/cerealchemist...s/1215-02R.pdf
http://www.innophos.com/PDF/AACC%20Tortilla%20Paper.pdf

Roy

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:54:05 -0500, Will
wrote:

Back to the beans.

They are like dough. The flavor will develop and mature if you give
them time. A two or three day cool soak before cooking works wonders.
Makes them sweeter. I don't know why, I think the beans are fooled into
thinking they are supposed to germinate so the latent enzymes wake up.
Anyway... they improve quite a bit. You can taste the difference
between an ordinary soaked bean and an "aged" soaked bean.

Will


I've never heard of anyone doing that here in New Mexico (or
anywhere). Many of my relatives, and me, think that beans are better
on the second day. Take a look at my page on the subject:
http://moya.us/MoyaFamily/recipes/RCPbeans.php

Regards,

On Sunday, July 17, 2005, at 01:32 AM, Ephraim F.Moya wrote:

I've never heard of anyone doing that here in New Mexico (or
anywhere). Many of my relatives, and me, think that beans are better
on the second day.

Ephraim,

I cannot say I have heard about long bean soaks in New Mexico g or
any other place. I just follow my taste. I mentioned it to Dusty for
two reasons. He was determined to get a Quality tortilla and was
willing to try different approaches. He had an audience that considered
itself knowledgeable on flavor matters. That second one is key.

If my suggestion works, they will let him know.

Roy wrote:
Hello Dave,
Hmmn I am not sure...if you can get this food grade chemical OTC. But
give it a tryg.
But I hope you won't mind for a correction; acid sodium pyrophosphate
had a double reaction, first it reacts during the dough stage or
preparation and further on the oven side( baking process).
The number after the SAPP signifies roughly the reaction rate;
You should be aware of such numbers as some suppliers/retailers got
mixed up with it.
The commonly used baking powder grade is an average speed material; not
too slow and not too fast, that is SAPP 28, if the number goes higher
say 36 that is moderately fast and good only for cake donuts.Meanwhile
the slower SAPP22 and below are for frozen dough application.

Thank you very much for those details! I had never run into different
"grades" of SAPP, while searching for it.
When you first mentioned SAPP 28, I thought the number may have
represented by-weight percent of the final product!

Small quantities (1 kg or less) seem to be the problem. I ran acros a
Chinese supplier that had a picture of a nice, small bag, probably on
the order of 1 kilo. The accompanying text suggested they could supply
up to 1000 metric tonnes... Gigagrams I don't need!

. I know a well known supplier,in which I bought tons of my
chemical leavening acids for my production of bakery prepared mixes
several years back.
It is Budenheim of Germany They have all the kinds of phosphates being
used in chemical leavening industry as well as food stabilizers.
Ewrc.
http://www.cfb-budenheim.de/dbw/public_cfb/Homepage/$frameset/Start
Previously ....
I bought from that supplier ton quantities of monocalcium phosphate
monohydrate, three different classes of acidic SAPP; namely SAPP
22,SAPP 28 and SAPP 36-40, dicalcum phosphate, sodium aluminum
phosphate., disodium phosphate and tetrasodium pyrophosphate In my
experience with Budenheim they suppled the lowest priced material with
the same specification as the higher prices products from Stauffer
Chemicals, Monsanto,Albright Wilson.
These are my supplier for sodium bicarbonate
http://www.brunnermond.com/whatfor/AppsFood.pdf
http://www.ahperformance.com/index.asp
The cheapest SAPP baking powder grade is from Korea and China.
If you want to buy a bottle of it say a kilogram quantity you should
try contacting those suppliers if they want to retail. Because IIRC,
the smallest quantity that I bought from them for pilot scale product
development trials was a 25 kg bag.
By the way these technical papers ( previously )r on tortilla
leavening agents which might be of interest to the people here which
was in my file and these is the link for the scientifically minded
TORTILLEROSgrin
http://www.aaccnet.org/cerealchemist...s/1215-02R.pdf
http://www.innophos.com/PDF/AACC%20Tortilla%20Paper.pdf

Roy

When you first mentioned SAPP 28, I thought the number may have
represented by-weight percent of the final product!

I understand.....but the number 22,28,30,36 etc is just a code which
is the identifying number for the particular SAPP grade.
A baking powder formulation made from such materials uses the same
amount of SAPP regardless of the code number.
For the simplest baking powder; it is composed of 42 parts SAPP and 30
parts baking soda and the remainder is a filler, double dried flour or
starch). BTW these ratios are by weight. basis.

"Dave Bell" wrote in message
m...
Dusty Bleher wrote:
"Will" wrote in message
news:mailman.0.1121536452.12629.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
...

Back to the beans.

They are like dough. The flavor will develop and mature if you give them
time. A two or three day cool soak before cooking works wonders.

Okay. I'm soaking 'em, Will. So, which is it? Two days or three?
What's
the diff? Also, do they cook any different (read: faster)?

I believe they will cook faster, after soaking. Hell, that's the only
reason I knew for soaking them! I'll definately have to try a longer
soak, next batch. I made quite a series of attempts, trying to come
close to the sweet, smoky, black beans at El Pollo Loco. Now I'll be
back to the "lab"!

Dave

Faster cooking was probably one of the main reasons our ancestors soaked
their beans before cooking. It soes allow them to cook in a shorter time.
Therefore, less firewood.

But another benefit of soaking the beans is that the phytic acid is
disipated (sp?). This means that the nutrients in the beans are more readily
available to the one eating them.This is one of the reasons that Dr. Jordan
Rubin recommends breads made with sourdough or sprouted grains.

Gordon

Roy wrote:

because the myth that sourdough is "the" ancient method of
leavening seems to be widespread.

I think that is self explanatory as pointed out in the link .you
posted...Sourdough should be ahead of beer as early people were
concerned about what to eat for their daily survival than what to drink
for their entertainment and socialsgrin.

Sourdough may be ahead of beer, but I don't regard 2000 BC (footnote 3
of the h2g2 article, http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2791820) as modern!
Yet a third option, Joe Ortiz implies in his book The Village Baker that
porridge-based methods are the oldest. These are direct rather than
cyclic; no doubt the organisms involved will probably be similar to
sourdough, but so is brewer's yeast.

By the way, weren't alcoholic beverages drunk for health reasons? Even
today, drinking water is dangerous in much of the world.

Greg

--
To get my e-mail address, remove a dot and replace a dot with a dash.

Greg wrote:

By the way, weren't alcoholic beverages drunk for health reasons? Even
today, drinking water is dangerous in much of the world.



My guess is they were drunk because there was no choice. Fruit juice,
even fruit on the vine, will ferment. And it's eat the fruit or go hungry.

Once people started eating and drinking the fermenting things, they
decided it was pretty neat.

Historians are divided as to whether it was desire for food or drink
that caused the nomads to settle down and develop agriculture.

Of course, soon after people started enjoying fermented products, other
people came around saying things like, "It's not good for you to eat
those fermented peaches! And it's not good for you to put the grapes in
a bucket, squeeze out the juice, and let it sit until it stops bubbling
before you drink it!"

So, the natural defense was, "When I drink the fermented juice, I don't
get sick as often as when I drink water!" And there as an element of,
"When I drink this stuff, you aren't as annoying."

Mike