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Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

Cinnamon raisin bread problem



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2005, 08:31 AM
D. Cook
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Default Cinnamon raisin bread problem

I've tried the cinnamon raisin bread recipe from "Classic Sourdoughs"
twice now, and had problems both times. The first time I thought it
wasn't rising because the crust got too hard, so I took precautions
this time and made sure the loaves rose in a nice humid environment and
the crust never toughened - still no dice.

Wake up the starter - whoosh! It's fully active and doubled in less
than 6 hours.

Do the first proof - whoosh! It doubled in less than two hours.

Do the second proof - whoosh! It also doubled in less than two hours.

Added in the ingredients - basically, flour, salt, sugar, milk,
raisins, and cinnamon - pfft, nothing happened at _all_ after over 4.5
hours.

Does cinnamon kill yeast??
Ads
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2005, 09:46 AM
D. Cook
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Default

I meant to include the link to this photo in my original post - sorry.

On the left is a loaf I made a couple of days ago with the same
starter. On the right is the cinnamon raisin from tonight. Both
loaves had the same initial weight - 1 lb, 13 oz (or near that).

http://www.addlepated.net/images/twobreads.JPG
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2005, 11:49 AM
The Ghost of Thomas Jefferson
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Default

Cinnamon will retard yeast activity. I've made cinnamon bread in a
bread machine. Thinking that I would like more cinnamon flavor I
doubled the cinnamon from 1 teaspoon to 2. This resulted in no rise
even with commercial rapid rise yeast.



On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 02:46:35 -0600, "D. Cook"
wrote:

I meant to include the link to this photo in my original post - sorry.

On the left is a loaf I made a couple of days ago with the same
starter. On the right is the cinnamon raisin from tonight. Both
loaves had the same initial weight - 1 lb, 13 oz (or near that).

http://www.addlepated.net/images/twobreads.JPG


  #4 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2005, 08:16 PM
Joe Doe
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Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
"D. Cook" wrote:



Do the first proof - whoosh! It doubled in less than two hours.

Do the second proof - whoosh! It also doubled in less than two hours.

Added in the ingredients - basically, flour, salt, sugar, milk,
raisins, and cinnamon - pfft, nothing happened at _all_ after over 4.5
hours.

Does cinnamon kill yeast??



The sugar is more likely the culprit: yeast is not osmotolerant. The
more salt/sugar you add the higher the osmotic pressure and this slows
the yeast down. The yeast will also be partially inhibited due to the
acidity of the sourdough. Osmotolerant strains of yeast are available
and they are recommended for very sweet doughs. The other way is to
compensate by adding more yeast but then the yeasty flavor may come
through.

For an osmotolerant yeast see:

http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/deta...06931111030865
1095?id=1457&pv=1110308651300

I presume you are using sourdough so adding more yeast suggestion is not
appropriate. Try cutting back on the sugar a bit and see if it helps.

Roland
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2005, 08:36 PM
Roy
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


D. Cook wrote:
I've tried the cinnamon raisin bread recipe from "Classic Sourdoughs"
twice now, and had problems both times. The first time I thought it
wasn't rising because the crust got too hard, so I took precautions
this time and made sure the loaves rose in a nice humid environment

and
the crust never toughened - still no dice.

Wake up the starter - whoosh! It's fully active and doubled in less
than 6 hours.

Do the first proof - whoosh! It doubled in less than two hours.

Do the second proof - whoosh! It also doubled in less than two

hours.

Added in the ingredients - basically, flour, salt, sugar, milk,
raisins, and cinnamon - pfft, nothing happened at _all_ after over

4.5
hours.

Does cinnamon kill yeast??


The essential oils of cinnamon had an inhibitory effect on yeast
activity. The molecule cinnamic aldehyde had similar action to phenol
for its antiseptic property on some microbes.
The rule in applying cinnamon to bread is to increase the amount of
yeast often double the amount originally used; sometimes even more in
some cases.
Therefore ,If you are using sourdough starter, you will have to
increase the quantity ( starter)in relation to the dough flour for
better performance while reducing the added dough water to compensate
the increased amount of moisture of more starter usage ), give it more
bulk fermentation etc.
But....even with these modification the bread volume is still not as
good as the cinnamon free sourdough.
Now If your intention is to make a really good cinnamon bread; use
bakers yeast instead of the sourdough starter.The compressed yeast is
better to use than the rapid rise yeast( in my experience).
The cinnamon ( specially if used in higher quantities) tends to mask
the subtle flavors of natural sourdough: so it defeats the purpose in
getting the best of both worlds; the appealing aromatic flavor of
cinnamon and the desirable taste of natural yeast leavened bread.
I don't know how how this sensory quality affect your perception of
your breads.
Many People have different taste preferrence anyway.
Roy

  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2005, 08:36 PM
Mike Avery
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

D. Cook wrote:

I've tried the cinnamon raisin bread recipe from "Classic Sourdoughs"
twice now, and had problems both times. The first time I thought it
wasn't rising because the crust got too hard, so I took precautions
this time and made sure the loaves rose in a nice humid environment and
the crust never toughened - still no dice.

Wake up the starter - whoosh! It's fully active and doubled in less
than 6 hours.

Do the first proof - whoosh! It doubled in less than two hours.

Do the second proof - whoosh! It also doubled in less than two hours.

Added in the ingredients - basically, flour, salt, sugar, milk,
raisins, and cinnamon - pfft, nothing happened at _all_ after over 4.5
hours.

Does cinnamon kill yeast??


There's a number of possibilities here. Why don't you try three rises
without adding sugar or cinnamon? Many people have trouble getting two
rises out of their sourdough culture, much less three.

When we were doing sourdough cinnamon raisin bread at the bakery, we put
the raisins in the dough, but layered the cinnamon sugar in the dough.
Basically, we rolled each loaf out so it was about 6" wide and about 18
to 24" long. Then we buttered the bread with melted, but no more than
warm, butter. Onto that, we sprinkled a cinnamon/brown sugar mixture.
We did not cover the last 6" or so of the bread. Then we rolled the
bread down, very tightly. Once it was rolled, we pinched the seams shut
and let the bread rise about 8 hours at room temperature. The rest of
our breads were in the walk-in so they wouldn't over rise. The raisin
was still rising.

Hope this helps,
Mike

  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2005, 08:49 PM
Will
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


D. Cook wrote:
I've tried the cinnamon raisin bread recipe from "Classic Sourdoughs"
twice now, and had problems both times. The first time I thought it
wasn't rising because the crust got too hard, so I took precautions
this time and made sure the loaves rose in a nice humid environment

and
the crust never toughened - still no dice.

Wake up the starter - whoosh! It's fully active and doubled in less
than 6 hours.

Do the first proof - whoosh! It doubled in less than two hours.

Do the second proof - whoosh! It also doubled in less than two

hours.

Added in the ingredients - basically, flour, salt, sugar, milk,
raisins, and cinnamon - pfft, nothing happened at _all_ after over

4.5
hours.

Does cinnamon kill yeast??


It might help to remember that cinnamon is ground bark. So adding it to
the bread dough at the mix stage is probably very much like adding
bran. It will cut the gluten strands. Why don't you fold or roll in the
raison/sugar/cinnamon mixture when you shape the final loaves instead?

  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2005, 09:37 PM
Joe Doe
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article
mailman.8.1110310579.218.rec.food.sourdough@mail. otherwhen.com,
Mike Avery wrote:

When we were doing sourdough cinnamon raisin bread at the bakery, we put
the raisins in the dough, but layered the cinnamon sugar in the dough.
Basically, we rolled each loaf out so it was about 6" wide and about 18
to 24" long. Then we buttered the bread with melted, but no more than
warm, butter. Onto that, we sprinkled a cinnamon/brown sugar mixture.
We did not cover the last 6" or so of the bread. Then we rolled the
bread down, very tightly. Once it was rolled, we pinched the seams shut
and let the bread rise about 8 hours at room temperature. The rest of
our breads were in the walk-in so they wouldn't over rise. The raisin
was still rising.

Hope this helps,
Mike


This looks like a clever way of getting the sugar/sweetness in without
inhibiting the yeast.

Roland
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2005, 12:22 AM
D. Cook
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article
mailman.8.1110310579.218.rec.food.sourdough@mail. otherwhen.com, Mike
Avery wrote:

There's a number of possibilities here. Why don't you try three rises
without adding sugar or cinnamon? Many people have trouble getting two
rises out of their sourdough culture, much less three.

When we were doing sourdough cinnamon raisin bread at the bakery, we put
the raisins in the dough, but layered the cinnamon sugar in the dough.
Basically, we rolled each loaf out so it was about 6" wide and about 18
to 24" long. Then we buttered the bread with melted, but no more than
warm, butter. Onto that, we sprinkled a cinnamon/brown sugar mixture.
We did not cover the last 6" or so of the bread. Then we rolled the
bread down, very tightly. Once it was rolled, we pinched the seams shut
and let the bread rise about 8 hours at room temperature. The rest of
our breads were in the walk-in so they wouldn't over rise. The raisin
was still rising.


Thanks for your responses, all. Interesting that cinnamon's bad for
yeast. This recipe calls for 2 cups of starter initially, adding in
another 2 cups of flour during 2 proofing stages, then the final flour,
cinnamon, etc. There wasn't that much sugar in the dough - 1
tablespoon per loaf, so I don't think that was the problem. In
addition to the cinnamon in the dough, the recipe also says to roll the
dough flat, add cinnamon sugar, and roll up into a loaf. I think I
will try this recipe again without all the cinnamon in the dough (1/4
cup for 2 loaves; it turned the dough completely brown!) and see what
transpires.

The third rise would not have been a problem without the additional
ingredients - I deflated the second rise and during the 5 minutes that
I mixed the milk, raisins, salt, sugar, and cinnamon, the dough itself
was already puffing up again.
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2005, 06:33 AM
bull moose
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 8 Mar 2005 11:36:18 -0800, "Roy" wrote:


D. Cook wrote:
I've tried the cinnamon raisin bread recipe from "Classic Sourdoughs"
twice now, and had problems both times. The first time I thought it
wasn't rising because the crust got too hard, so I took precautions
this time and made sure the loaves rose in a nice humid environment

and
the crust never toughened - still no dice.

Wake up the starter - whoosh! It's fully active and doubled in less
than 6 hours.

Do the first proof - whoosh! It doubled in less than two hours.

Do the second proof - whoosh! It also doubled in less than two

hours.

Added in the ingredients - basically, flour, salt, sugar, milk,
raisins, and cinnamon - pfft, nothing happened at _all_ after over

4.5
hours.

Does cinnamon kill yeast??


The essential oils of cinnamon had an inhibitory effect on yeast
activity. The molecule cinnamic aldehyde had similar action to phenol
for its antiseptic property on some microbes.
The rule in applying cinnamon to bread is to increase the amount of
yeast often double the amount originally used; sometimes even more in
some cases.


THIS MAKES PERFECT SENSE... I had problems with plain cin/raisin bread
in a ABM and had to add additional yeast to make the danged thing come
out o k.. Soooooo everything else remaining the same, MORE STARTER
seems right..
Therefore ,If you are using sourdough starter, you will have to
increase the quantity ( starter)in relation to the dough flour for
better performance while reducing the added dough water to compensate
the increased amount of moisture of more starter usage ), give it more
bulk fermentation etc.
But....even with these modification the bread volume is still not as
good as the cinnamon free sourdough.
Now If your intention is to make a really good cinnamon bread; use
bakers yeast instead of the sourdough starter.The compressed yeast is
better to use than the rapid rise yeast( in my experience).
The cinnamon ( specially if used in higher quantities) tends to mask
the subtle flavors of natural sourdough: so it defeats the purpose in
getting the best of both worlds; the appealing aromatic flavor of
cinnamon and the desirable taste of natural yeast leavened bread.
I don't know how how this sensory quality affect your perception of
your breads.
Many People have different taste preferrence anyway.
Roy


  #11 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2005, 06:40 AM
bull moose
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 17:22:38 -0600, "D. Cook"
wrote:

In article
mailman.8.1110310579.218.rec.food.sourdough@mail .otherwhen.com, Mike
Avery wrote:

There's a number of possibilities here. Why don't you try three rises
without adding sugar or cinnamon? Many people have trouble getting two
rises out of their sourdough culture, much less three.

When we were doing sourdough cinnamon raisin bread at the bakery, we put
the raisins in the dough, but layered the cinnamon sugar in the dough.
Basically, we rolled each loaf out so it was about 6" wide and about 18
to 24" long. Then we buttered the bread with melted, but no more than
warm, butter. Onto that, we sprinkled a cinnamon/brown sugar mixture.
We did not cover the last 6" or so of the bread. Then we rolled the
bread down, very tightly. Once it was rolled, we pinched the seams shut
and let the bread rise about 8 hours at room temperature. The rest of
our breads were in the walk-in so they wouldn't over rise. The raisin
was still rising.


Thanks for your responses, all. Interesting that cinnamon's bad for
yeast. This recipe calls for 2 cups of starter initially, adding in
another 2 cups of flour during 2 proofing stages, then the final flour,
cinnamon, etc. There wasn't that much sugar in the dough - 1
tablespoon per loaf, so I don't think that was the problem. In
addition to the cinnamon in the dough, the recipe also says to roll the
dough flat, add cinnamon sugar, and roll up into a loaf. I think I
will try this recipe again without all the cinnamon in the dough (1/4
cup for 2 loaves; it turned the dough completely brown!) and see what
transpires.

2 tbs of cinnamon is about right for a 1.5 lb loaf... still makes the
dough brownish.. NOW I GOTTA get some stuff and make some cin/raisin
bread again chuckle..

The third rise would not have been a problem without the additional
ingredients - I deflated the second rise and during the 5 minutes that
I mixed the milk, raisins, salt, sugar, and cinnamon, the dough itself
was already puffing up again.


  #12 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2005, 04:56 PM
qahtan
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mike how can I get hot cross buns to taste spicy,
the more cinnamon/spice added for taste the worse the buns turn out.
My brother and husband every year, both enjoy the buns but both
say, 'Yea, nice, but not enough spice.' help.............. thanks, qahtan



"Mike Avery" wrote in message
news:mailman.8.1110310579.218.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
When we were doing sourdough cinnamon raisin bread at the bakery, we put
the raisins in the dough, but layered the cinnamon sugar in the dough.
Basically, we rolled each loaf out so it was about 6" wide and about 18
to 24" long. Then we buttered the bread with melted, but no more than
warm, butter. Onto that, we sprinkled a cinnamon/brown sugar mixture. We
did not cover the last 6" or so of the bread. Then we rolled the bread
down, very tightly. Once it was rolled, we pinched the seams shut and
let the bread rise about 8 hours at room temperature. The rest of our
breads were in the walk-in so they wouldn't over rise. The raisin was
still rising.

Hope this helps,
Mike



  #13 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2005, 05:53 PM
Mike Avery
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

qahtan wrote:

Mike how can I get hot cross buns to taste spicy,
the more cinnamon/spice added for taste the worse the buns turn out.
My brother and husband every year, both enjoy the buns but both
say, 'Yea, nice, but not enough spice.' help.............. thanks, qahtan



Gee, I'd like to help, but I've never had hot cross buns, or made them
either.

If there is an issue with the spice preventing rise, here are some options -

1. Put the spice in the icing. Won't affect the rise at all.

2. Use a more active starter.

3. Use more starter.

4. Throw in the towel and use baker's yeast. I like SAF's gold.

Good luck,
Mike

  #14 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2005, 07:00 PM
qahtan
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Posts: n/a
Default

Ok thanks, qahtan





"Mike Avery" wrote in message
news:mailman.9.1110387180.218.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
qahtan wrote:

Mike how can I get hot cross buns to taste spicy,
the more cinnamon/spice added for taste the worse the buns turn out.
My brother and husband every year, both enjoy the buns but both
say, 'Yea, nice, but not enough spice.' help.............. thanks, qahtan


Gee, I'd like to help, but I've never had hot cross buns, or made them
either.

If there is an issue with the spice preventing rise, here are some
options -

1. Put the spice in the icing. Won't affect the rise at all.

2. Use a more active starter.

3. Use more starter.

4. Throw in the towel and use baker's yeast. I like SAF's gold.

Good luck,
Mike



  #15 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2005, 01:41 AM
Dusty
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mike Avery wrote:
....
When we were doing sourdough cinnamon raisin bread at the bakery, we
put the raisins in the dough, but layered the cinnamon sugar in the

Hey! Great tip, Mike. Thanks.

My SD Cinnamon rolls seem to rise okay. But I was having trouble with those
durn raisins always falling out and makin' a mess. Putting 'em into the
dough should handle that just fine...

Looks like I'm gonna hafta give foolin' around with Ulrike's quark powered
Kasekuchen a rest...and make some new cinnamon rolls...(:-o)!


Dusty
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