the definitive sourdough French bread recipe. The one you have tried, and
not only liked, but keep making. The one using only sourdough, and may take
36 hours, or so.
you know. THE recipe for sourdough French bread.
I am dying here. All the ones I have tried from my books do not want to work
for me, but I admit I don't have all that many books.

thanks in advance
gw

gw wrote:

>the definitive sourdough French bread recipe. The one you have tried, and
>not only liked, but keep making. The one using only sourdough, and may take
>36 hours, or so.
>you know. THE recipe for sourdough French bread.
>I am dying here. All the ones I have tried from my books do not want to work
>for me, but I admit I don't have all that many books.
>
>
There are, in the end, as many recipes for French sourdough as there are
French bakers.

However, here are a few pointers...

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/threestagefrench.html

and

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/threestagerevisited.html

and finally,

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/sfsd1.html

Mike

gw wrote:

>the definitive sourdough French bread recipe. The one you have tried, and
>not only liked, but keep making. The one using only sourdough, and may take
>36 hours, or so.
>you know. THE recipe for sourdough French bread.
>I am dying here. All the ones I have tried from my books do not want to work
>for me, but I admit I don't have all that many books.
>
>
There are, in the end, as many recipes for French sourdough as there are
French bakers.

However, here are a few pointers...

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/threestagefrench.html

and

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/threestagerevisited.html

and finally,

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/sfsd1.html

Mike

Try this one. Joe's a wonderful sourdough baker (at least according to his
web site).

http://joejaworski.com/bread/bread1.htm

Phil

"gw" > wrote in message
...
> the definitive sourdough French bread recipe. The one you have tried, and
> not only liked, but keep making. The one using only sourdough, and may
> take
> 36 hours, or so.
> you know. THE recipe for sourdough French bread.
> I am dying here. All the ones I have tried from my books do not want to
> work
> for me, but I admit I don't have all that many books.
>
> thanks in advance
> gw
>
>

"gw" > says in message=20
=20
says that he is looking for

> the definitive sourdough French bread recipe ...=20

"The Joy ... " (1975) says this about French bread:

"To an American who travels in France, the commonest of=20
tourist sights at the noon hour is what looks like *tout le monde*=20
coming from the baker, afoot, or a-cycle, with a couple or=20
three long loaves of French bread, naked and gloriously=20
unashamed, strapped on behind. French cookbooks ignore=20
French bread, and French housewives leave the making of this=20
characteristic loaf to the commercial baker." =20

"Why?"

"Because he alone has the traditional wood-fired stone=20
hearth with its evenly reflected heat, and the skilled hand=20
with sourdough -- both of which are necessary to produce=20
the genuine article."

Nevertheless, a recipe for a yeasted substitute based on=20
"all-purpose" flour (which does not exist in France) is given=20
(starting on page 605).

Joe, mentioned in ,=20
has developed a unique style based on using a pizza tile as=20
a cookie sheet to handle his doughloaf, and a sheet of cling=20
plastic to hold it together while it is rising.

Quite a lot hangs on what one means by "French bread". =20
I do not understand that the traditional baguette, which is=20
the one with the shape most usually associated with "French"=20
when it comes to bread, is a sourdough bread. Anyway,=20
those things are much longer than my oven, so I don't even=20
start.

Good luck to "gw" in his search for the definitive loaf .

-"da"

gw wrote:
>
> the definitive sourdough French bread recipe.
>

My prospective son-in- law, a French baker from a town about an
hour south of Paris, told me this story.
A baker in the town died and there was no one in the family to
carry on so the bakery was sold. The new owner, to everybody's
horror, began to change things. Unthinkable!

Well, he changed recipes by using better quality ingredients and
even charged a little higher prices on some items. The the
townspeople knew that this(change of any kind) was a recipe for
disaster. Sure enough business began to drop off. Then a
miracle happened.

Somehow the word of the new bread got out. Paris people who
weekended in the country began getting off the train when it
stopped at the town and rushing up to buy bread from the bakery.
There was a flood of new business from the folks on their way out
to the country and again on their way back to the city.

I asked my son-in-law to be if the other bakeries upgraded their
goods and competed for the new customers. He looked at me as if
I had lost my mind. He explained that the French customer would
show up at the same time(s) every week and buy the same bread
items except in the case of special events. The baker was
expected to use the same suppliers and produce exactly the same
product or risk loss of business or possibly even being shuned.
It was even extremely rare for the counter girl to change.
Nobody was going to risk defying tradition and offending their
main customer base. Death of the baker with no family to take
over was the only chance for change.

That is the long way to explain that the *definitive* French
bread recipe is the one used by whoever is answering the
question. That is his story and he is sticking to it no matter
what. Oh, and everbody you ask has a slightly different tale to
tell.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:45:46 +0000, Dick Adams wrote:
[snip]
> I do not understand that the traditional baguette, which is
> the one with the shape most usually associated with "French"
> when it comes to bread, is a sourdough bread.

I have had baguettes in France and in a number of French overseas
territories. Not one of them resembled sourdough in any way, as far as I
could tell.

However, I have had tasty sourdough baguettes from small bakeries in the
USA.

I am just sharing my experience.

--Mac

On 3/6/05 10:40 AM, "Charles Perry" > wrote:

>
> <snip: French tradition as recounted by future son-in-law>
Then

> Oh, and everbody you ask has a slightly different tale to
> tell.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles

Mike Avery mentioned *Bread of Three Rivers* in a posting several months
back. I thought to look the book up. It's an interesting account by a woman
who decided to find the quintessential French loaf, in France, and interview
all of the hands that touched it. So she visits the baker, the miller, the
farmer, the salt flat scratcher, the water system engineer, the yeast
factory...

It's a short, entertaining read if you are looking for yet another tale.
Apparently the bread so popular today has changed quite a bit from what was
eaten as little as 80 years ago. It has gotten whiter and cheaper.

Sound familiar?

Will

gw wrote:
> the definitive sourdough French bread recipe. The one you have tried,
> and not only liked, but keep making. The one using only sourdough,
> and may take 36 hours, or so.
> you know. THE recipe for sourdough French bread.
> I am dying here. All the ones I have tried from my books do not want
> to work for me, but I admit I don't have all that many books.
Wow, "gw", you're one brave soul to ask such a question in this august
group...(:-o)!

There are probably as many versions of what constitutes "the" French bread
as there are bakers baking it. Mine is:
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...urdough_br.htm

Try it. Adopt what you like. Change what you don't. And then make your
own imprint on your recipes...


HTH,
Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply

Mac wrote:

>On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:45:46 +0000, Dick Adams wrote:
>[snip]
>
>
>>I do not understand that the traditional baguette, which is
>>the one with the shape most usually associated with "French"
>>when it comes to bread, is a sourdough bread.
>>
>>
>
>I have had baguettes in France and in a number of French overseas
>territories. Not one of them resembled sourdough in any way, as far as I
>could tell.
>
>However, I have had tasty sourdough baguettes from small bakeries in the
>USA.
>
>I am just sharing my experience.
>
>
The French used sourdough exclusively until the advent of baker's
yeast, around the 1880's to 1890's. The French call their sourdough
Levain, and they handle it much differently than Americans do. It is
milder, subtler. They consider the taste of San Francisco Sourdough to
be too assertive and even offensive.

Baker's yeast was easier to use. The French bakers developed (or stole)
techniques to use it and still develop the flavor of the bread. Poolish
and autolyse are among these techniques.

However, in the 20th century, the French government fixed the price of
baguettes. So, they declined in quality as bakers cheapened them to
still be able to make a slight profit, or at least not lose money.

It was in the last 10 to 20 years or so that some bakers have started to
go back to the older methods and stress quality. Most baguettes in
France are poorly made, made too quickly, and have no lasting power
because they were made too quickly. (The baguette shape does stale more
quickly than a boule, but they should last longer than a few hours.)
Only their freshness makes them palateable.

Some of the newer bakers are again using levain or pate du levain. And
the chances are that you might not recognize them as sourdough, because
they still don't want the sort of assertive taste that west coast
Americans prefer.

Mike

Will wrote:

> Apparently the bread so popular today has changed quite a bit from what was
> eaten as little as 80 years ago. It has gotten whiter and cheaper.

I find using about 7-8% whole wheat flour approximates the color. Since
the white flour I use seems to be quite strong, 16.6%, I find no need to
add gluten.

B/

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 11:04:55 -0700, Mike Avery wrote:
> Mac wrote:

[snip]

>>I have had baguettes in France and in a number of French overseas
>>territories. Not one of them resembled sourdough in any way, as far as I
>>could tell.
>>
>>However, I have had tasty sourdough baguettes from small bakeries in the
>>USA.
>>
>>I am just sharing my experience.

[snip]

> And the chances are that you might not recognize them as sourdough,
> because they still don't want the sort of assertive taste that west
> coast Americans prefer.
>
> Mike

I may not know much, but I believe I know sourdough when I eat it. I mean,
this is a sourdough newsgroup; you could give me the benefit of the doubt
for goodness sake.

--Mac

I am really new, so I cant begin to answer this question, but there are many
here who can point you in the right direction. At least they could, but you
don't give much of a clue as to what you don't like about the recipes you
use, or what properties you are trying to attain. Most of the links that
people provide you with are the same ones you can google, but if you ask
specific questions, I have found they are more than generous with tips that
will really help you find THE recipe that is perfect for you. Worked for me.

Hutchndi


"gw" > wrote in message
...
> the definitive sourdough French bread recipe. The one you have tried, and
> not only liked, but keep making. The one using only sourdough, and may
take
> 36 hours, or so.
> you know. THE recipe for sourdough French bread.
> I am dying here. All the ones I have tried from my books do not want to
work
> for me, but I admit I don't have all that many books.
>
> thanks in advance
> gw
>
>

I also have had baguettes in Paris. The taste depended on where I
bought the baguette. Some were really good, but some tasted very bad
(or nothing). Although I don't say the good ones were better than the
ones I had in US -- since it also depends where the bread is bought in
US, they were really good.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 15:36:28 -0800, wildelin wrote:

> I also have had baguettes in Paris. The taste depended on where I
> bought the baguette. Some were really good, but some tasted very bad
> (or nothing). Although I don't say the good ones were better than the
> ones I had in US -- since it also depends where the bread is bought in
> US, they were really good.

It was not my intention to imply that French baguettes are inferior in any
way to those found in the United States. In fact, I find such an
implication ludicrous. It may be that the best baguettes in the USA are
just as good as the best baguettes in France, but the average baguette in
the USA doesn't even deserve to be called a baguette.

In my original post, the idea I was trying to convey is that, based on my
limited experience, the baguettes in France (and in her overseas
territories) are not, in general, made from sourdough.

--Mac

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 15:36:28 -0800, wildelin wrote:

> I also have had baguettes in Paris. The taste depended on where I
> bought the baguette. Some were really good, but some tasted very bad
> (or nothing). Although I don't say the good ones were better than the
> ones I had in US -- since it also depends where the bread is bought in
> US, they were really good.

It was not my intention to imply that French baguettes are inferior in any
way to those found in the United States. In fact, I find such an
implication ludicrous. It may be that the best baguettes in the USA are
just as good as the best baguettes in France, but the average baguette in
the USA doesn't even deserve to be called a baguette.

In my original post, the idea I was trying to convey is that, based on my
limited experience, the baguettes in France (and in her overseas
territories) are not, in general, made from sourdough.

--Mac

Actually, you raise a good question. What do I think would be a good
sourdough baguette?

I don't care if it's French or not, but the French sourdoughs seems a bit
milder, so that's probably first on my list, a milder rather than a tangier
flavor. Also, people seem to associate baguettes with the French, but I
understand the SF sourdough baguettes are pretty tasty.

I like the holes, I really want a bread which rises!

So far, the ones I have tried in the books all flatten, no matter what I do.

The times all differ, the rising temperature all seem to differ, how one
feeds the starter out of the fridge, differs. Not much here which is alike,
actually, hence my absolute frustration! I thought I would ask the question
the way I did so that people would give me techniques they have found which
work as well as a formula for the bread.

I have tried bread machine, by hand, and processer, (I don't have a Kitchen
Aid!) I simply do not find a bread which works. Someone posted the Julia
Childs url for French bread on the alt.bread.recipes group, and I went
there, and figured I might be able to make that work, by incorporating the
sourdough starter into the bread flour that way (850 slaps on the table)
then add the salt, and allow to rise. She gives a temperature similar to
some given in the various books.

Books I have tried:
Nick Malgieri (makes no sense to me at all, I know there are fans out there,
but he makes things incredibly difficult to follow!)
Rose Levy Berenbaum (I haven't tried her recipe yet, but intend to, to the
letter, she actually made the instructions sound sensible, even if they go
on for five pages.)
Ed Woods -forget this. Flattest bread yet. Good starter, but no rise at all.
Following his instructions killed my sourdough.
German/Wood-Sourdough from Bread Machine -this one is currently back on my
counter, attempting to rise. I made two batards instead of three baguettes,
as no room for three, but am getting so little rise I have no clue. What is
it about Wood's directions? He works for others, why not me?

Using a french lavain from King Arthur (pain de campagne), lots of recent
feedings, pretty fast working starter, King Arthur flour, warm(ish) kitchen
82F. Nice hot oven, goes right up to 500F easy when called for. Water is
filtered, using a good sea salt. I make pretty good sourdough pita now, (not
Ed's recipe) so why not the baguette?

ANY help (or advice, or critiscism) welcome here.
HELP!
gw

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:32:23 -0600, "gw"
> wrote:

<>>SNIP<<>


>
>ANY help (or advice, or critiscism) welcome here.
>HELP!
>gw
>

Howdy,

Here's my suggestion:

Stop jumping from one approach to another.

Instead, pick any one of them. Using that approach, make a
loaf and write down everything you do (most particularly the
times, and the temperatures.) Write down a description of
the results, include the things you liked, and did not.

Then, post back here with that information.

Instead of thinking of the process as finding the perfect
technique, think of the process as tweaking any particular
so that you can steadily improve it. Eventually, it is
likely that you will have a technique that you are very
happy with. The problem of course, is that it will not
happen quickly, but then, neither will there be positive
results from bouncing from one method to another...

Many here will be happy to help.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

I have been following this approach anyway, just in case I got lucky, but I
need something edible now, unfortunately.
The folks who sent in urls? Many thanks, I am trying out the first one, and
sending off for the booklet they mention.
gw