While there is no lack of information available to beginners (this NG
routinely posts some basic advice), at least one beginner has got
confused by the lack of agreement in the advice contained in the
information.

I feel certain that all the information has been found to be tried and
true by the authors who posted the information. But for the reader, it
is difficult to work out which differences in the supplied advice are
attributable to the raw materials and which differences are attributable
to the different fermentation conditions. Although seasoned sourdough
bakers can readily make the needed adjustments to adapt the printed
suggestions to the characteristics of locally available ingredients,
beginners do not even know where to start.

To give a concrete example of the above generalisation.

I took the advice to use rye flour for growing my starters. It is rich
both in desirable micro-organisms and in the food that they need to
thrive. Undoubtedly true. But the advice failed to mention that, in the
fermentation stage, rye flour has ingredients (pentosans) that break
down into gums. So my acceptable (slack?) starting doughs turned into
sticky messes during fermentation - very edible when baked, but not
suitable for centre pages in Playboy.

My question is:

What are the names of some up-to-date texts that treat these topics
adequately and are geared to a broad audience?

All suggestions will be gratefully received.

Felix Karpfen
--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 07:50:28 +1100, Felix Karpfen
wrote:

While there is no lack of information available to beginners (this NG
routinely posts some basic advice), at least one beginner has got
confused by the lack of agreement in the advice contained in the
information.

I feel certain that all the information has been found to be tried and
true by the authors who posted the information. But for the reader, it
is difficult to work out which differences in the supplied advice are
attributable to the raw materials and which differences are attributable
to the different fermentation conditions. Although seasoned sourdough
bakers can readily make the needed adjustments to adapt the printed
suggestions to the characteristics of locally available ingredients,
beginners do not even know where to start.

To give a concrete example of the above generalisation.

I took the advice to use rye flour for growing my starters. It is rich
both in desirable micro-organisms and in the food that they need to
thrive. Undoubtedly true. But the advice failed to mention that, in the
fermentation stage, rye flour has ingredients (pentosans) that break
down into gums. So my acceptable (slack?) starting doughs turned into
sticky messes during fermentation - very edible when baked, but not
suitable for centre pages in Playboy.

My question is:

What are the names of some up-to-date texts that treat these topics
adequately and are geared to a broad audience?

All suggestions will be gratefully received.

Felix Karpfen

Hi Felix,

I would suggest: http://tinyurl.com/5kdpm

It is loaded with solid information.

I will also mention that there are many books that I have
seen that are merely re-writes of a French classic called
(in its English version) Special and Decorative Breads by
Billheux et. al. If I recall correctly, the Ortiz book is
one of those...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Felix Karpfen wrote:
[..]
I took the advice to use rye flour for growing my starters. It is rich
both in desirable micro-organisms and in the food that they need to
thrive. Undoubtedly true. But the advice failed to mention that, in the
fermentation stage, rye flour has ingredients (pentosans) that break
down into gums. So my acceptable (slack?) starting doughs turned into
sticky messes during fermentation - very edible when baked, but not
suitable for centre pages in Playboy.

That's a theory you have here and by my measures, the origin of your
starter has very little to do with the result. The symptoms you show i.
e. deterioration of structure (if I interpret you right) is typically
for over fermentation and that goes on with or without pentosans.

Another main factor for slackness and loft is hydration.

To disprove your rye starter damage theory, please have a look the

http://samartha.net/SD/images/BYDATE...P1300065-S.JPG

that was done with a pure full grain rye starter - 15 % starter flour,
all the rye in the starter and 70 % dough hydration.

Not knowing what exactly you were doing with your bread making i. e.
ratios of rye/wheat, if any, fermentation times, temperature and
hydration, my writing is pretty much based on speculation but maybe
gives you some ideas.

As for books, the Bread Builders is very good and if you get the
Hamelman you should be set for a longer time.

Samartha

My question is:

What are the names of some up-to-date texts that treat these topics
adequately and are geared to a broad audience?

All suggestions will be gratefully received.

Felix Karpfen

Felix Karpfen wrote:

What are the names of some up-to-date texts that treat these topics
adequately and are geared to a broad audience?

I agree with Kenneth in that the book "the Bread Builders" is
remarkable for its lack of lies compared to the average bread
book. However, I would not recommend it to the average beginning
baker. Give it a good check out at the library or book store
before you plunk down your money. It is a good book, but not much
use for a real novice.

What you seek does not exist. You are going to find that there
is no way other than sifting through the dross to find the little
nuggets of good information here and there.

There are a number of books that have interesting recipes and
methods that will make a variety of breads. Where most of them
fall down is in their explanations of what is really going on in
the sourdough process. Most of them make full use of poetic
license to the extant that they wander off the edge. My
grandmothers explanation of how the Bread Faeries raise the bread
is more rational and accurate. Oh, and whatever you do, pay no
attention at all to methods in books on how to begin a starter
from scratch.

Many bread books are fun to read. They can be good adventure
stories and good entertainment, even some good recipes. It is
particularly interesting to read, in order, books by authors that
have written a series of baking books, say, Dr. Woods or Peter
Reinhart. My opinion is that as the bread making directions get
more sophisticated, the story telling suffers.

With all the books available, the Everyman's book of beginning
sourdough has yet to be written. I suppose Ticker could write
it, but it will take a better man than me to purrsuade her to get
at the task.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 06:28:11 GMT, Charles Perry
wrote:

I agree with Kenneth in that the book "the Bread Builders" is
remarkable for its lack of lies compared to the average bread
book. However, I would not recommend it to the average beginning
baker. Give it a good check out at the library or book store
before you plunk down your money. It is a good book, but not much
use for a real novice.

Hi Charles,

Please say more about why you believe the Wing book to be
inappropriate for the "real novice."

Thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" wrote in message =
...

Hi Charles,
Please say more about why you believe the Wing book to be
inappropriate for the "real novice."

I can help he The Wing (and somebody else) book does not
have any chapter on making SD bread in a bread machine.

Also, I think I remember correctly that it makes no mention of the=20
Detmold 3-Stage Process.

I am considering writing a book on doing Detmold 3-Stage in
a bread machine. I will see if I can get Felix to help out as a
co-author, if he has any time left. (Samartha, unfortunately, is
totally busy mystifying noobies.)

--
DickA

Dick Adams wrote:

Also, I think I remember correctly that it makes no mention of the
Detmold 3-Stage Process.

You hit the nail again, DA (I am still recovering from trying to get my
head back on straight after laughing it off with your "machine" and in
the process, I wonder if it was ever straight, probably not; even better
so).

You are right - no Detmold in the book at all, but a 3-Stage for white
starter, all with temperatures and hydrations on page 61 and he labels it:

"The traditional French three-leaven process (after J.C. Groscher, data
from Calvel)"

Now, if you do it in white, are allowed to name it the "Traditional
French three-leaven process (after J.C. Groscher, data from
Calvel)-3-Stage process". I think that's much better than just "Detmold"
- who knows what kind of machine this is anyway, if one has missed the
picture.

The white Traditional French three-leaven process (after J.C. Groscher,
data from Calvel)-3-Stage process sounds much better, with my DM3 in
white, it's just "growing white in DM3" - can't impress nobody with that.

Gotta go, look at the 70 % hydrated.

S.


I am considering writing a book on doing Detmold 3-Stage in
a bread machine. I will see if I can get Felix to help out as a
co-author, if he has any time left. (Samartha, unfortunately, is
totally busy mystifying noobies.)

--
DickA

Kenneth wrote:

Please say more about why you believe the Wing book to be
inappropriate for the "real novice."


I come to that conclusion not on the overall merit of the book ,
which is on the top of the list for experienced or even
intermediate bakers, but on a couple of assumptions regarding the
"real novice baker."

First, the books written for the total novice, The Everyman's
book of beginning sourdough, should have a reading level no
greater than the average newspaper. That is to say somewhere
between 4th and 6th grade. The book, although well written,
fails that test.

Second, I assume that the Novice is seeking a book because he
want to bake a loaf of sourdough bread. The "Bread Builders"
contains a single recipe. It is in non standard pictograph flow
chart format that will confuse someone new to that format.
Additionaly . the recipe is in metric which, the Americam novice
will have to convert to our measurments, if they have that
ability. Further, the sidebar on page 61 describes the process
as:
"The traditional three levain process; this converts one kilogram
of active intermediate levain to 168 kilograms of dough.

The Novice does not want 168 kilograms of dough. He will, after
converting the recipe from Metric to American measurements, have
to divide out the quantities to make one or two loaves. They are
left to their own devices to determine what weight of dough is
needed for a single loaf.

The Novice who just wanted to bake a loaf of sourdough is lost
and possibly forever turned off from sourdough baking. The book
is a good book. It is not a book for the novice.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Kenneth wrote:

Please say more about why you believe the Wing book to be
inappropriate for the "real novice."

Charles replied:

I come to that conclusion not on the overall merit of the book ,
which is on the top of the list for experienced or even
intermediate bakers, but on a couple of assumptions regarding the
"real novice baker."

snip: an excellent deconstruction of baking pedagogy

Charles,

I agree with every point you made. It is not obvious to the beginner that he
or she can ignore measuring systems and simply ratio ingredients. Nor does
Wing tell them. The keep-it-simple-stupid methodology is completely absent.

On the other hand... the original poster, Felix, has managed to discover
pentosans, understands his rye problem, and one might surmise, by finding
this newsgroup, is a skilled researcher. Thus he is a different "kind" of
novice. I think this is what Kenneth was trying to address.

Felix's post indicates he does not want to get blindsided *again* by
incomplete information. As you point out: Wing doesn't offer a bread to
learn by. But he does offer an approachable and orderly flow of useful
information that Felix would certainly be able to absorb and apply to recipe
101.

Regards,

Will

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 11:24:14 -0600, Will
wrote:

On the other hand... the original poster, Felix, has managed to discover
pentosans, understands his rye problem, and one might surmise, by finding
this newsgroup, is a skilled researcher. Thus he is a different "kind" of
novice. I think this is what Kenneth was trying to address.

Hi Will,

I was not trying to address anything in particular. I was
simply curious.

Were I to suggest a single book to a sourdough beginner, it
would probably be the Wing book.

But, that said, I do think that there is some tendency to
confuse sourdough beginners with fools.

Why would we think that a beginner could not divide, make
productive use of the metric system, or know how to read a
thermometer?

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Will wrote:

... As you point out: Wing doesn't offer a bread to
learn by. But he does offer an approachable and orderly flow of useful
information ...

Yes, but.

The ordinary novice does not have a background in reasearch and
science.

Bread making is not just science, it is also art. It is not just
abstract knowledge, it is also physical knowledge - your hands
also learn. My contention is that the best way to learn to bake
bread is to bake bread.

Once you have some practice with an elementary loaf, you will be
in a much better position to understand terms of art such as
extensibility and gluten formation. It is best to start with a
book or an article that teaches you to bake a loaf, even if it is
dogmagtic in approach and without much explanation.

If you try to teach someone detailed knowledge about bread making
to someone who has no experience, it is like explaining sex to a
four year old. You are going to have to leave a lot of the good
stuff out or confuse the student.

The Wing book is great for the person trying to stich together
bits of information gathered here and there, but I would not hand
it to the "Real Novice" as an entry to sourdough baking.

Well, maybe I might, I have been known to have a cruel sense of
humor on occaision.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 14:23:54 +0000, Dick Adams wrote:


I am considering writing a book on doing Detmold 3-Stage in
a bread machine. I will see if I can get Felix to help out as a
co-author, if he has any time left.


Are you taking shameless advantage of my Newbie status and pushing my
leg while appearing to inflate my ego?

Or have bread machines become respectable in their old age?

For your information, I am already halfway there. I have purchased a 1.8
litre thermos flask (cost $A 15.95) and will see if I can manage to grow
Detmold 3-Stage starters in it.

I also propose to see what my electrically-powered yoghurt maker has
to offer.

Felix

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 16:11:56 -0700, Samartha Deva wrote:

Felix Karpfen wrote:
[..]
So my acceptable (slack?) starting doughs turned into
sticky messes during fermentation - very edible when baked, but not
suitable for centre pages in Playboy.

That's a theory you have here and by my measures, the origin of your
starter has very little to do with the result. The symptoms you show i.
e. deterioration of structure (if I interpret you right) is typically
for over fermentation and that goes on with or without pentosans.

Given my very limited experience with sourdoughs, this is probably the
correct diagnosis. All long-chain carbohydrates will split into shorter
chains when exposed to the sourdough pH range. I suspected (probably
incorrectly) that pentosans were more sensitive than starches.

And that was the reason for my initial posting.

I have not been able to make any sense of the recommendations of
fermentation times/temperature in the recipes that I have read.

The times appear to vary anywhere from 8 to 24+ hours and the
temperatures frequently do not score an entry.

Answering points raised in some of the other replies, let me say that
while I am a total novice as far as "sourdough baking" is concerned, I
switched from Microsoft to Linux in 1999. I have had 6 years practice in
learning to read instructions - even if my typing skills have not shown
any significant improvements in that period.

As for books, the Bread Builders is very good and if you get the
Hamelman you should be set for a longer time.

The consensus is overwhelming.

Laying my hands on them ought to be within my abilities.

I would like to thank all who answered my query.

Felix

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

"Felix Karpfen" wrote in message =
news
I have purchased a 1.8 litre thermos flask (cost $A 15.95) and=20
will see if I can manage to grow Detmold 3-Stage starters in it.

I would be pleased to learn that all three stages can be grown=20
concurrently in the same vessel.

Once again I feel compelled to admonish that the Detmold 3-stage
magic is for rye breads, and is inappropriate for wheat breads, unless
you care to argue, as Samartha apparently does, that all multistage
refreshments/builds are descendents or variants of the Detmold=20
process.

Mixed rye-wheat breads continue to be an enigma. Wheat-bread
preferments need for acidity to be restrained to avoid gluten=20
degradation, whereas rye-bread preferments need strong acidity=20
to prevent the degradation of carbohydrate substances that will
hopefully hold the finished loaf together.
.. =20
Manipulations of rye preferments thought to regulate the balance=20
of microorganisms (bacteria|yeast) do not have a useful=20
counterpart for white-flour preferments, where a main objective=20
is to restrain bacterial activity, so far as such activity renders an=20
gluten-degrading acidic environment, until later on in the dough=20
stage.

So goes my theory, anyway.

Do you think there is hope for the noobies who continue to follow
the Detmold instructions for making sourdough loaves with their
bread machines?

--
DickA

Dick Adams wrote:
[...]
Mixed rye-wheat breads continue to be an enigma.

Only for people too much in their heads or suffering from rye-phobia.

Reading your post, I had to run down, cut a slice of the most marvellous
smelling, moist, multiplex-tasting, pleasantly light sweet/sour soft
bread, put some butter and raspberry jam on and - mmmmmhhh... total bliss!

For the "less in their heads", ignore the BS and maybe use some ideas
from that:

Multi-grain rye/wheat mix, 50/50 rye/wheat, all fg rye in starter,
remaining rye was light rye - wheat part: 2/3 bread flour, 1/3 full
grain, starter grown for 8 hours with 70 % hydration at 30 C by
quatdrupling (flour) an at least 2 week old leftover stored in fridge.

Starter flour 28 %
Dough hydration 68 %
Salt 1.8 %
Spices total 1 %
equal parts, whole seeds of fennel, coriander, caraway and anis

After mixing flour and most water, 1/2 hour autolize, then add starter
and salt (brine in remaining water), knead for 8 minutes.

Bulk rise for 90 minutes at 30 C
split into 1650 g, rework pieces (stretch/fold) and rise in oiled
plastic baskets for 90 minutes

Bake with preheated oven, exhaust closed with duct tape, on 1" clay
tiles with boiling water bowl for 12 minutes on max temp, then down on
to 425 F, take water bowl out after 15 minutes, after 45 minutes bake,
paint loafs with corn starch boiled in water.

Total bake 55 minutes, last 5 minutes turn heat to max again.

Happy rises!

Samartha