Greetings,

I am new to sourdough baking. I nurtured my own starter from scratch
based on info I found on the web, and it seems to be working just
fine. It was really cool to watch my starter (and my skills) go
through the different stages as it matured into a reliable culture
that seems pretty stable and predictable.

I have yet to bake an inedible loaf (though some are definitely better
than others). In fact, every loaf has been better than edible, and
better than anything I could find at a regular grocery (but, alas, not
better than several terrific local bakeries here in Chicago like Red
Hen).

So far I've had the best results using white "bread" flour (just Gold
Medal, haven't tried any of the fancy types yet). All-purpose flour
works fine, but I find that it's more likely to go slack than bread
flour (though slack dough still seems to bake up nicely, if not
lofty). An egg wash makes my bread prettier, and though it doesn't
change the taste, it seems to impress others.

What appeals most to me about sourdough is the independence of it: I
do not need to pay money for yeast. As a financially struggling
student, I find that sourdough allows me to get a lot of good, yet
pleasurable nutritional food value out of very little money. Flour is
cheap, water is cheap, and sourdough culture is free. I often dream
of living "off the grid," and sourdough is just one step closer.

I feel that the best thing to do in order to learn the most about the
art of sourdough baking is simply to do a lot of it, and since the
ingredients are cheap and there's no trouble finding people to take
the bread off my hands, that's my plan. I don't take a lot of notes
or try too hard to analyze things--I want to simply develop a "feel"
for it, and be able to respond spontaneously to the ever-changing
conditions. Like any art, that means practice, practice, practice.

Sourdough baking also allows me to be generous with my friends without
it costing me much money. I have yet to find a friend who isn't
totally grateful for the gift of one of these loaves, no matter how
mediocre I think it may be. I think most folks are so numbed by
foamy, corporate bread that they think anything made at home with some
heft to it is a masterpiece!

The one thing I'd love some advice on is producing a loaf of 100
percent whole-wheat flour sourdough that isn't heavy and dry. I made
some very tasty whole wheat (based on a whole wheat sponge innoculated
with my regular white starter) that had a nice balance of wheatiness
and sourness, and was just terrific toasted for breakfast, with butter
and jam (or a nice fig spread). But this bread was otherwise dense,
dry, and difficult to eat without the aforementioned toppings.

I feel that more moisture is required, but any less flour, and
kneading it (in my Kitchen Aid mixer) was a sticky, clumpy affair. I
wonder if others have found a way to produce a better 100 percent
whole-wheat loaf? I'm not troubled by dense bread at all, in fact I
prefer it. And I enjoy the sour taste (I have yet to encounter a
too-sour loaf). But I'd prefer more moisture. I'm not interested in
using additives (like wheat gluten or dough conditioners--though I
realize the aforementioned Gold Medal bread flour contains ascorbic
acid, which is, I understand, a dough conditioner), because I'm trying
to learn to work simply with "normal" ingredients.

I'm sorry this message was so long, and thanks for reading it all.
Also, thanks for any suggestions.

--Chris

At 10:23 PM 11/22/2004, Christopher Gagnon wrote:

[...]

The one thing I'd love some advice on is producing a loaf of 100
percent whole-wheat flour sourdough that isn't heavy and dry. I made
some very tasty whole wheat (based on a whole wheat sponge innoculated
with my regular white starter) that had a nice balance of wheatiness
and sourness, and was just terrific toasted for breakfast, with butter
and jam (or a nice fig spread). But this bread was otherwise dense,
dry, and difficult to eat without the aforementioned toppings.

I feel that more moisture is required, but any less flour, and
kneading it (in my Kitchen Aid mixer) was a sticky, clumpy affair. I
wonder if others have found a way to produce a better 100 percent
whole-wheat loaf? I'm not troubled by dense bread at all, in fact I
prefer it. And I enjoy the sour taste (I have yet to encounter a
too-sour loaf). But I'd prefer more moisture.

Try using some rye, maybe 10 % for starters - wheat by itself tends to be
"dusty".

If you want to do something extra, scald the rye before. Add maybe 150 % of
boiling water to the rye, mix it so there are not clumps, let it cool down
and add it to your normal dough. This will get more moisture into the rye.
You'll have to play with the dough to get the hydration right by adding
water or flour. I don't know the numbers at this point.

Other possibilities may be potatoes, carrots, pumpkins or zucchini -
anything which can hold water better than wheat.

See if that does something for you.

Samartha


_______________________________________________
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

"Christopher Gagnon" wrote in message =
om...

[ ... ]

The one thing I'd love some advice on is producing a loaf of 100
percent whole-wheat flour sourdough that isn't heavy and dry. =20

... I feel that more moisture is required, but any less flour, and
kneading it (in my Kitchen Aid mixer) was a sticky, clumpy affair.

I have learned how to make good yeasted mostly WW loaves in
a bread machine. The WW flour is home-milled. The trick is to
add a sugar source. Email me for details if you are interested.

http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...BMWW7SEP04.jpg =20

... I realize the aforementioned Gold Medal bread flour contains=20
ascorbic acid ...

It also contains malt for rendering starch to sugars. If you happen
to be milling your own WW, or using mother-earth flour, sugars will
be lacking to a great extent.

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 01:10:34 -0700, Samartha
wrote:

At 10:23 PM 11/22/2004, Christopher Gagnon wrote:

[...]

The one thing I'd love some advice on is producing a loaf of 100
percent whole-wheat flour sourdough that isn't heavy and dry. I made
some very tasty whole wheat (based on a whole wheat sponge innoculated
with my regular white starter) that had a nice balance of wheatiness
and sourness, and was just terrific toasted for breakfast, with butter
and jam (or a nice fig spread). But this bread was otherwise dense,
dry, and difficult to eat without the aforementioned toppings.

I feel that more moisture is required, but any less flour, and
kneading it (in my Kitchen Aid mixer) was a sticky, clumpy affair. I
wonder if others have found a way to produce a better 100 percent
whole-wheat loaf? I'm not troubled by dense bread at all, in fact I
prefer it. And I enjoy the sour taste (I have yet to encounter a
too-sour loaf). But I'd prefer more moisture.

Try using some rye, maybe 10 % for starters - wheat by itself tends to be
"dusty".

If you want to do something extra, scald the rye before. Add maybe 150 % of
boiling water to the rye, mix it so there are not clumps, let it cool down
and add it to your normal dough. This will get more moisture into the rye.
You'll have to play with the dough to get the hydration right by adding
water or flour. I don't know the numbers at this point.

Other possibilities may be potatoes, carrots, pumpkins or zucchini -
anything which can hold water better than wheat.

See if that does something for you.

Samartha


______________________________________________ _
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

Howdy,

When Samartha wrote "Try using some rye, maybe 10 % for
starters" I suspect that he meant something like "When you
start your experiments with a better whole wheat bread, try
using some rye in your dough... Maybe 10%"


(Do I have that right Samartha?)

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 01:10:34 -0700, Samartha
wrote:

At 10:23 PM 11/22/2004, Christopher Gagnon wrote:

[...]

The one thing I'd love some advice on is producing a loaf of 100
percent whole-wheat flour sourdough that isn't heavy and dry. I made
some very tasty whole wheat (based on a whole wheat sponge innoculated
with my regular white starter) that had a nice balance of wheatiness
and sourness, and was just terrific toasted for breakfast, with butter
and jam (or a nice fig spread). But this bread was otherwise dense,
dry, and difficult to eat without the aforementioned toppings.

I feel that more moisture is required, but any less flour, and
kneading it (in my Kitchen Aid mixer) was a sticky, clumpy affair. I
wonder if others have found a way to produce a better 100 percent
whole-wheat loaf? I'm not troubled by dense bread at all, in fact I
prefer it. And I enjoy the sour taste (I have yet to encounter a
too-sour loaf). But I'd prefer more moisture.

Try using some rye, maybe 10 % for starters - wheat by itself tends to be
"dusty".

If you want to do something extra, scald the rye before. Add maybe 150 % of
boiling water to the rye, mix it so there are not clumps, let it cool down
and add it to your normal dough. This will get more moisture into the rye.
You'll have to play with the dough to get the hydration right by adding
water or flour. I don't know the numbers at this point.

Other possibilities may be potatoes, carrots, pumpkins or zucchini -
anything which can hold water better than wheat.

See if that does something for you.

Samartha


______________________________________________ _
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

Howdy,

When Samartha wrote "Try using some rye, maybe 10 % for
starters" I suspect that he meant something like "When you
start your experiments with a better whole wheat bread, try
using some rye in your dough... Maybe 10%"


(Do I have that right Samartha?)

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 22 Nov 2004 21:23:19 -0800, (Christopher
Gagnon) wrote:

The one thing I'd love some advice on is producing a loaf of 100
percent whole-wheat flour sourdough that isn't heavy and dry.

I set a sponge the night before consisting of 1/2 c starter
(maintained in a commercial white flour jar), 4 cups water and 4 cups
home-milled hard white winter wheat flour. Ferment overnight, turn
into the KA bowl and knead in enough additional flour to make a soft,
slightly sticky dough. Two rises, one proof and into a preheated 400F
oven.

My wheat bread certainly has character, but I wouldn't call it dry or
heavy. Dense of crumb, hefty of loaf, it makes sandwiches and toast
equally well.

I'm a non-scientific bread baker. I think part of what you'll learn
through experimentation is that an absolutely unsticky dough is the
one that produces the dry, heavy bread. Wheat flour seems able to
absorb more moisture than white flour, so if you make a dry dough
you'll have a dry loaf.

Wooly
Ryeless

On 22 Nov 2004 21:23:19 -0800, (Christopher
Gagnon) wrote:

The one thing I'd love some advice on is producing a loaf of 100
percent whole-wheat flour sourdough that isn't heavy and dry.

I set a sponge the night before consisting of 1/2 c starter
(maintained in a commercial white flour jar), 4 cups water and 4 cups
home-milled hard white winter wheat flour. Ferment overnight, turn
into the KA bowl and knead in enough additional flour to make a soft,
slightly sticky dough. Two rises, one proof and into a preheated 400F
oven.

My wheat bread certainly has character, but I wouldn't call it dry or
heavy. Dense of crumb, hefty of loaf, it makes sandwiches and toast
equally well.

I'm a non-scientific bread baker. I think part of what you'll learn
through experimentation is that an absolutely unsticky dough is the
one that produces the dry, heavy bread. Wheat flour seems able to
absorb more moisture than white flour, so if you make a dry dough
you'll have a dry loaf.

Wooly
Ryeless

To add some moistness to your whole-wheat bread try adding some oats, as
they retain alot of moisture and make for a softer bread. I would suggest
using about 10% of the final dough weight as whole rolled oats. They should
be soaked for 10-15 minutes in the water before your other ingredients are
added (be sure to increase the amount of water by a few percent to account
for that which the oats will soak up). This obviously will not make a 100%
whole-wheat loaf, but if your flour is 100% whole-wheat, then at least your
loaf will remain 100% whole-grain. Just be careful not to underbake this
loaf -- your best bet is to bake at at least 450 degrees until it is very
dark brown.

Trevor

"Christopher Gagnon" wrote in message
om...
Greetings,

I am new to sourdough baking. I nurtured my own starter from scratch
based on info I found on the web, and it seems to be working just
fine. It was really cool to watch my starter (and my skills) go
through the different stages as it matured into a reliable culture
that seems pretty stable and predictable.

I have yet to bake an inedible loaf (though some are definitely better
than others). In fact, every loaf has been better than edible, and
better than anything I could find at a regular grocery (but, alas, not
better than several terrific local bakeries here in Chicago like Red
Hen).

So far I've had the best results using white "bread" flour (just Gold
Medal, haven't tried any of the fancy types yet). All-purpose flour
works fine, but I find that it's more likely to go slack than bread
flour (though slack dough still seems to bake up nicely, if not
lofty). An egg wash makes my bread prettier, and though it doesn't
change the taste, it seems to impress others.

What appeals most to me about sourdough is the independence of it: I
do not need to pay money for yeast. As a financially struggling
student, I find that sourdough allows me to get a lot of good, yet
pleasurable nutritional food value out of very little money. Flour is
cheap, water is cheap, and sourdough culture is free. I often dream
of living "off the grid," and sourdough is just one step closer.

I feel that the best thing to do in order to learn the most about the
art of sourdough baking is simply to do a lot of it, and since the
ingredients are cheap and there's no trouble finding people to take
the bread off my hands, that's my plan. I don't take a lot of notes
or try too hard to analyze things--I want to simply develop a "feel"
for it, and be able to respond spontaneously to the ever-changing
conditions. Like any art, that means practice, practice, practice.

Sourdough baking also allows me to be generous with my friends without
it costing me much money. I have yet to find a friend who isn't
totally grateful for the gift of one of these loaves, no matter how
mediocre I think it may be. I think most folks are so numbed by
foamy, corporate bread that they think anything made at home with some
heft to it is a masterpiece!

The one thing I'd love some advice on is producing a loaf of 100
percent whole-wheat flour sourdough that isn't heavy and dry. I made
some very tasty whole wheat (based on a whole wheat sponge innoculated
with my regular white starter) that had a nice balance of wheatiness
and sourness, and was just terrific toasted for breakfast, with butter
and jam (or a nice fig spread). But this bread was otherwise dense,
dry, and difficult to eat without the aforementioned toppings.

I feel that more moisture is required, but any less flour, and
kneading it (in my Kitchen Aid mixer) was a sticky, clumpy affair. I
wonder if others have found a way to produce a better 100 percent
whole-wheat loaf? I'm not troubled by dense bread at all, in fact I
prefer it. And I enjoy the sour taste (I have yet to encounter a
too-sour loaf). But I'd prefer more moisture. I'm not interested in
using additives (like wheat gluten or dough conditioners--though I
realize the aforementioned Gold Medal bread flour contains ascorbic
acid, which is, I understand, a dough conditioner), because I'm trying
to learn to work simply with "normal" ingredients.

I'm sorry this message was so long, and thanks for reading it all.
Also, thanks for any suggestions.

--Chris

On 2004-11-23, Christopher Gagnon wrote:
[...]
The one thing I'd love some advice on is producing a loaf of 100
percent whole-wheat flour sourdough that isn't heavy and dry. I made
some very tasty whole wheat (based on a whole wheat sponge innoculated
with my regular white starter) that had a nice balance of wheatiness
and sourness, and was just terrific toasted for breakfast, with butter
and jam (or a nice fig spread). But this bread was otherwise dense,
dry, and difficult to eat without the aforementioned toppings.

I feel that more moisture is required, but any less flour, and
kneading it (in my Kitchen Aid mixer) was a sticky, clumpy affair. I
wonder if others have found a way to produce a better 100 percent
whole-wheat loaf? I'm not troubled by dense bread at all, in fact I
prefer it. And I enjoy the sour taste (I have yet to encounter a
too-sour loaf). But I'd prefer more moisture. I'm not interested in
using additives (like wheat gluten or dough conditioners--though I
realize the aforementioned Gold Medal bread flour contains ascorbic
acid, which is, I understand, a dough conditioner), because I'm trying
to learn to work simply with "normal" ingredients.
[...]

I bake almost exclusively with whole grain flours (though as I say
this, I'm preparing to bake some all white flour butter rolls for
Thanksgiving -- but that's a special occasion), and I've found that
it's quite possible to get excellent texture, and without using any
dough conditioners. Whole-grain bread will never become extremely
light and lofty, but it doesn't need to be dense, either.

First, I recommend King Arthur stone-ground whole wheat flour. It is
slightly more expensive, so use Pillsbury if you must. Avoid
coarse-ground flours if you want a soft, fine texture in the bread --
coarse-ground whole wheat is often labeled "graham flour", but each
brand seems to have their own terminology, so you can't really trust
this. But the two absolutely essential things to baking moist,
fine-textured whole wheat bread a 1) hydration, and 2) kneading.

Hydration should be about 70% for whole wheat doughs (in my
experience). That means that the *weight* (not volume) of water is
70% of the weight of the flour. So 1000 grams of flour would need 700
grams of water to be at 70% hydration. (And that will coincidentally
make two large loaves of bread.) But you don't measure by weight,
I'll bet -- you measure by volume. Here's the conversion:

1 cup whole-wheat flour = 140g
1 cup all-purpose (white) flour = 121g
1 cup bread (white) flour = 130g
1 cup water = 237g
(Easier is to measure water in liters: 1mL water = 1g; 1L water = 1kg)

So to get approx. 70% hydration by volume:
7 1/4 cups whole-wheat flour (= 1016g)
3 cups water (=711g)
So: 711g / 1016g = 69.98% (more than close enough)

When baking sourdough, some of that water and flour (10%-40%) will
come from the starter itself; make sure to subtract this out so that
the totals come out as above. And of course, you also need to add
salt, and milk powder (or replace water with milk), sweeteners, etc.,
as you desire. I find that whole-wheat will rise without added sugar,
though a little sugar certainly helps. (If you use commercial yeast,
it often has ascorbic acid or other dough conditioners that help, but
sourdough has bacteria that help the yeast digest the starches.)

Now, at 70% hydration, this will be a sticky dough. This is where
your KitchenAid comes in. (I'm so glad you have one.) This also
leads us to the second crucial point: kneading. I baked bread for
years without realizing that I was under-kneading (and
under-hydrating) my dough. Knead at least 15 minutes with the dough
hook in your KitchenAid. The recipe above is easily handled by my
larger "Epicurian" model (425watts, or maybe 475?), but if you have
the smaller type of KitchenAid, with the head that tilts up rather
than the bowl that moves up and down, you may need to make smaller
batches of dough.

When I say 15 minutes, I mean 15 minutes total -- you should do it in
a couple of phases. This is not only to let the mixer's motor rest,
but also to let the dough rest. When the dough is resting, the flour
will absorb water, which helps to make the dough less sticky.
(Whole-wheat flour absorbs more water than white flour, but it absorbs
it somewhat more slowly.) Resting will also relax the gluten network
a bit, allowing you to get it all wound up again, even stronger, when
you resume kneading.

I generally mix the ingredients together with a wooden spoon until the
dry ingredients are mostly moistened. Then I knead for about 4
minutes in the machine, until it gathers around the hook, then rest a
minute or so, scraping the dough off the hook and the sides of the
bowl. Then I alternately knead and rest (without any particular
intervals), until I've had 15 minutes of total kneading time (which
usually takes at least 20 minutes of real time, due to 5 minutes or
more of resting.) When you're done, you should be able to take a
small chunk of dough and stretch it with your hands into a "baker's
windowpane": a sheet of dough so thin light shines through when you
hold it up to a light. When you get to this point, let the dough rest
in the bowl or on the counter another 5 minutes. It's sticky, so
touch it as little as possible, using water or oil on your hands
rather than flour to prevent sticking. Form it into a smooth(ish)
ball and put it in an oiled bowl for the first fermentation, using
whatever process you like.

When that fermentation finishes, the dough should have gotten slightly
less sticky, and it should be a little easier to form loaves. If not,
you can use a light dusting of flour if you really need it, but try
not to.

If you do those two things, you should find that your 100% whole wheat
bread is moist, soft, and just the right density for sandwiches,
toating, or munching on straight out of the oven. Other posters have
mentioned adding small amounts of rye flour or rolled oats, both of
which are also good suggestions. Milk (or milk powder) will also make
for a softer crumb.

If the flavor of 100% whole wheat is a bit much for you, try King
Arthur's whole-grain "white wheat" -- it's whole-grain flour, but it's
ground from hard white wheat (a relatively new product in the US),
rather than the usual red wheat. It behaves pretty much the same as
the normal red wheat in terms of gluten strength and water absorption,
so use it exactly as red wheat, but the flavor is milder (less bitter,
more sweet). I like to blend both together in varying ratios to
create milder or stronger flavors.

You can also push the hydration beyond 70%. I've gone to 75% with
good results, but you can't really work with it with your hands much.
It's a good idea to use loaf pans with a dough this wet, but if you
must do free-form loaves, you can do it ciabatta-style: pour or roll
the dough from the bowl it's been rising in directly onto a baking
stone or cooking sheet (which then goes straight in the oven). You'll
get a thin, irregularly shaped loaf that's mostly crust, with a holey
interior.

HTH,

Randall Nortman

On 2004-11-23, Christopher Gagnon wrote:
[...]
The one thing I'd love some advice on is producing a loaf of 100
percent whole-wheat flour sourdough that isn't heavy and dry. I made
some very tasty whole wheat (based on a whole wheat sponge innoculated
with my regular white starter) that had a nice balance of wheatiness
and sourness, and was just terrific toasted for breakfast, with butter
and jam (or a nice fig spread). But this bread was otherwise dense,
dry, and difficult to eat without the aforementioned toppings.

I feel that more moisture is required, but any less flour, and
kneading it (in my Kitchen Aid mixer) was a sticky, clumpy affair. I
wonder if others have found a way to produce a better 100 percent
whole-wheat loaf? I'm not troubled by dense bread at all, in fact I
prefer it. And I enjoy the sour taste (I have yet to encounter a
too-sour loaf). But I'd prefer more moisture. I'm not interested in
using additives (like wheat gluten or dough conditioners--though I
realize the aforementioned Gold Medal bread flour contains ascorbic
acid, which is, I understand, a dough conditioner), because I'm trying
to learn to work simply with "normal" ingredients.
[...]

I bake almost exclusively with whole grain flours (though as I say
this, I'm preparing to bake some all white flour butter rolls for
Thanksgiving -- but that's a special occasion), and I've found that
it's quite possible to get excellent texture, and without using any
dough conditioners. Whole-grain bread will never become extremely
light and lofty, but it doesn't need to be dense, either.

First, I recommend King Arthur stone-ground whole wheat flour. It is
slightly more expensive, so use Pillsbury if you must. Avoid
coarse-ground flours if you want a soft, fine texture in the bread --
coarse-ground whole wheat is often labeled "graham flour", but each
brand seems to have their own terminology, so you can't really trust
this. But the two absolutely essential things to baking moist,
fine-textured whole wheat bread a 1) hydration, and 2) kneading.

Hydration should be about 70% for whole wheat doughs (in my
experience). That means that the *weight* (not volume) of water is
70% of the weight of the flour. So 1000 grams of flour would need 700
grams of water to be at 70% hydration. (And that will coincidentally
make two large loaves of bread.) But you don't measure by weight,
I'll bet -- you measure by volume. Here's the conversion:

1 cup whole-wheat flour = 140g
1 cup all-purpose (white) flour = 121g
1 cup bread (white) flour = 130g
1 cup water = 237g
(Easier is to measure water in liters: 1mL water = 1g; 1L water = 1kg)

So to get approx. 70% hydration by volume:
7 1/4 cups whole-wheat flour (= 1016g)
3 cups water (=711g)
So: 711g / 1016g = 69.98% (more than close enough)

When baking sourdough, some of that water and flour (10%-40%) will
come from the starter itself; make sure to subtract this out so that
the totals come out as above. And of course, you also need to add
salt, and milk powder (or replace water with milk), sweeteners, etc.,
as you desire. I find that whole-wheat will rise without added sugar,
though a little sugar certainly helps. (If you use commercial yeast,
it often has ascorbic acid or other dough conditioners that help, but
sourdough has bacteria that help the yeast digest the starches.)

Now, at 70% hydration, this will be a sticky dough. This is where
your KitchenAid comes in. (I'm so glad you have one.) This also
leads us to the second crucial point: kneading. I baked bread for
years without realizing that I was under-kneading (and
under-hydrating) my dough. Knead at least 15 minutes with the dough
hook in your KitchenAid. The recipe above is easily handled by my
larger "Epicurian" model (425watts, or maybe 475?), but if you have
the smaller type of KitchenAid, with the head that tilts up rather
than the bowl that moves up and down, you may need to make smaller
batches of dough.

When I say 15 minutes, I mean 15 minutes total -- you should do it in
a couple of phases. This is not only to let the mixer's motor rest,
but also to let the dough rest. When the dough is resting, the flour
will absorb water, which helps to make the dough less sticky.
(Whole-wheat flour absorbs more water than white flour, but it absorbs
it somewhat more slowly.) Resting will also relax the gluten network
a bit, allowing you to get it all wound up again, even stronger, when
you resume kneading.

I generally mix the ingredients together with a wooden spoon until the
dry ingredients are mostly moistened. Then I knead for about 4
minutes in the machine, until it gathers around the hook, then rest a
minute or so, scraping the dough off the hook and the sides of the
bowl. Then I alternately knead and rest (without any particular
intervals), until I've had 15 minutes of total kneading time (which
usually takes at least 20 minutes of real time, due to 5 minutes or
more of resting.) When you're done, you should be able to take a
small chunk of dough and stretch it with your hands into a "baker's
windowpane": a sheet of dough so thin light shines through when you
hold it up to a light. When you get to this point, let the dough rest
in the bowl or on the counter another 5 minutes. It's sticky, so
touch it as little as possible, using water or oil on your hands
rather than flour to prevent sticking. Form it into a smooth(ish)
ball and put it in an oiled bowl for the first fermentation, using
whatever process you like.

When that fermentation finishes, the dough should have gotten slightly
less sticky, and it should be a little easier to form loaves. If not,
you can use a light dusting of flour if you really need it, but try
not to.

If you do those two things, you should find that your 100% whole wheat
bread is moist, soft, and just the right density for sandwiches,
toating, or munching on straight out of the oven. Other posters have
mentioned adding small amounts of rye flour or rolled oats, both of
which are also good suggestions. Milk (or milk powder) will also make
for a softer crumb.

If the flavor of 100% whole wheat is a bit much for you, try King
Arthur's whole-grain "white wheat" -- it's whole-grain flour, but it's
ground from hard white wheat (a relatively new product in the US),
rather than the usual red wheat. It behaves pretty much the same as
the normal red wheat in terms of gluten strength and water absorption,
so use it exactly as red wheat, but the flavor is milder (less bitter,
more sweet). I like to blend both together in varying ratios to
create milder or stronger flavors.

You can also push the hydration beyond 70%. I've gone to 75% with
good results, but you can't really work with it with your hands much.
It's a good idea to use loaf pans with a dough this wet, but if you
must do free-form loaves, you can do it ciabatta-style: pour or roll
the dough from the bowl it's been rising in directly onto a baking
stone or cooking sheet (which then goes straight in the oven). You'll
get a thin, irregularly shaped loaf that's mostly crust, with a holey
interior.

HTH,

Randall Nortman

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:59:29 GMT, Randall Nortman
wrote:

Now, at 70% hydration, this will be a sticky dough. This is where
your KitchenAid comes in. (I'm so glad you have one.) This also
leads us to the second crucial point: kneading. I baked bread for
years without realizing that I was under-kneading (and
under-hydrating) my dough. Knead at least 15 minutes with the dough
hook in your KitchenAid. The recipe above is easily handled by my
larger "Epicurian" model (425watts, or maybe 475?), but if you have
the smaller type of KitchenAid, with the head that tilts up rather
than the bowl that moves up and down, you may need to make smaller
batches of dough.

When I say 15 minutes, I mean 15 minutes total -- you should do it in
a couple of phases. This is not only to let the mixer's motor rest,
but also to let the dough rest. When the dough is resting, the flour
will absorb water, which helps to make the dough less sticky.
(Whole-wheat flour absorbs more water than white flour, but it absorbs
it somewhat more slowly.) Resting will also relax the gluten network
a bit, allowing you to get it all wound up again, even stronger, when
you resume kneading.


Hi Randall,

You emphasize the kneading, but there is another approach...

The value of the kneading is in gluten production. Simple
hydration will do the same thing with sufficient time. If
you put everything in the mixer, let it run enough that
there are no pockets of dry flour, and then put the dough in
the refrigerator overnight, you are likely to find very much
the same result.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:59:29 GMT, Randall Nortman
wrote:

Now, at 70% hydration, this will be a sticky dough. This is where
your KitchenAid comes in. (I'm so glad you have one.) This also
leads us to the second crucial point: kneading. I baked bread for
years without realizing that I was under-kneading (and
under-hydrating) my dough. Knead at least 15 minutes with the dough
hook in your KitchenAid. The recipe above is easily handled by my
larger "Epicurian" model (425watts, or maybe 475?), but if you have
the smaller type of KitchenAid, with the head that tilts up rather
than the bowl that moves up and down, you may need to make smaller
batches of dough.

When I say 15 minutes, I mean 15 minutes total -- you should do it in
a couple of phases. This is not only to let the mixer's motor rest,
but also to let the dough rest. When the dough is resting, the flour
will absorb water, which helps to make the dough less sticky.
(Whole-wheat flour absorbs more water than white flour, but it absorbs
it somewhat more slowly.) Resting will also relax the gluten network
a bit, allowing you to get it all wound up again, even stronger, when
you resume kneading.


Hi Randall,

You emphasize the kneading, but there is another approach...

The value of the kneading is in gluten production. Simple
hydration will do the same thing with sufficient time. If
you put everything in the mixer, let it run enough that
there are no pockets of dry flour, and then put the dough in
the refrigerator overnight, you are likely to find very much
the same result.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:59:29 GMT, Randall Nortman
wrote:

Now, at 70% hydration, this will be a sticky dough. This is where
your KitchenAid comes in. (I'm so glad you have one.) This also
leads us to the second crucial point: kneading. I baked bread for
years without realizing that I was under-kneading (and
under-hydrating) my dough. Knead at least 15 minutes with the dough
hook in your KitchenAid. The recipe above is easily handled by my
larger "Epicurian" model (425watts, or maybe 475?), but if you have
the smaller type of KitchenAid, with the head that tilts up rather
than the bowl that moves up and down, you may need to make smaller
batches of dough.

When I say 15 minutes, I mean 15 minutes total -- you should do it in
a couple of phases. This is not only to let the mixer's motor rest,
but also to let the dough rest. When the dough is resting, the flour
will absorb water, which helps to make the dough less sticky.
(Whole-wheat flour absorbs more water than white flour, but it absorbs
it somewhat more slowly.) Resting will also relax the gluten network
a bit, allowing you to get it all wound up again, even stronger, when
you resume kneading.


Hi Randall,

You emphasize the kneading, but there is another approach...

The value of the kneading is in gluten production. Simple
hydration will do the same thing with sufficient time. If
you put everything in the mixer, let it run enough that
there are no pockets of dry flour, and then put the dough in
the refrigerator overnight, you are likely to find very much
the same result.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" wrote in message =
...

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:59:29 GMT, Randall Nortman
wrote:

Knead at least 15 minutes with the dough hook in your=20
KitchenAid. ...When I say 15 minutes, I mean 15 minutes=20
total -- you should do it in a couple of phases ... to let the=20
dough rest ...
=20
You emphasize the kneading, but there is another approach...
The value of the kneading is in gluten production. Simple
hydration will do the same thing with sufficient time. If
you put everything in the mixer, let it run enough that
there are no pockets of dry flour, and then put the dough in
the refrigerator overnight, you are likely to find very much
the same result.

I doubt it. But, Kenneth, can we see a photo or scan of a
slice of your bread? Maybe Randall can show one too. =20
Then we will be getting into some semblance of science. =20

Remember, we are talking 100% whole wheat flour in this=20
thread.

Kneading is a stretching process. It is endothermic in the=20
sense that it requires an input of energy. The refrigerator
is not well-known to be an energy source. Therefore one=20
might well expect the refrigerator result to differ from the=20
mechanical-mixer approach.

--=20
Dick Adams
(Sourdough minimalist)
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Kenneth" wrote in message =
...

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:59:29 GMT, Randall Nortman
wrote:

Knead at least 15 minutes with the dough hook in your=20
KitchenAid. ...When I say 15 minutes, I mean 15 minutes=20
total -- you should do it in a couple of phases ... to let the=20
dough rest ...
=20
You emphasize the kneading, but there is another approach...
The value of the kneading is in gluten production. Simple
hydration will do the same thing with sufficient time. If
you put everything in the mixer, let it run enough that
there are no pockets of dry flour, and then put the dough in
the refrigerator overnight, you are likely to find very much
the same result.

I doubt it. But, Kenneth, can we see a photo or scan of a
slice of your bread? Maybe Randall can show one too. =20
Then we will be getting into some semblance of science. =20

Remember, we are talking 100% whole wheat flour in this=20
thread.

Kneading is a stretching process. It is endothermic in the=20
sense that it requires an input of energy. The refrigerator
is not well-known to be an energy source. Therefore one=20
might well expect the refrigerator result to differ from the=20
mechanical-mixer approach.

--=20
Dick Adams
(Sourdough minimalist)
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html