I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat),
but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot.
The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let
it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest
overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or
not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might
influence the consistency?

Thanks / JB

Local humidity, esp if you don't keep your flour airtight.

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:50:37 +0100, J Boehm
wrote:

I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat),
but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot.
The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let
it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest
overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or
not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might
influence the consistency?

Thanks / JB

Local humidity, esp if you don't keep your flour airtight.

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:50:37 +0100, J Boehm
wrote:

I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat),
but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot.
The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let
it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest
overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or
not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might
influence the consistency?

Thanks / JB

Local humidity, esp if you don't keep your flour airtight.

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:50:37 +0100, J Boehm
wrote:

I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat),
but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot.
The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let
it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest
overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or
not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might
influence the consistency?

Thanks / JB

At 02:50 PM 11/14/2004, JB wrote:
I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat),
but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot.
The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let
it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest
overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or
not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might
influence the consistency?

It looks that you answered this yourself - the only variable part in your
recipe appears to be the starter. Is there perhaps a variance? Or do you
change flours - rye for example and then get a different result?

If everything is the same and the result is different, there got to be
something different, so what varies?

What you describe: poor rise and stickiness points to overripe starter, so
my guess is that starter management is the cause. What is somewhat
interesting is that you don't see the stickiness right after the first mix.
With rye you have inherent stickiness - the more rye, the more sticky. With
50 %, it's not very bad.

I find your recipe very interesting - do you know any more about the
background of the timings or is there a source where you got it?

Samartha

______________________________________________
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

At 02:50 PM 11/14/2004, JB wrote:
I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat),
but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot.
The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let
it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest
overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or
not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might
influence the consistency?

It looks that you answered this yourself - the only variable part in your
recipe appears to be the starter. Is there perhaps a variance? Or do you
change flours - rye for example and then get a different result?

If everything is the same and the result is different, there got to be
something different, so what varies?

What you describe: poor rise and stickiness points to overripe starter, so
my guess is that starter management is the cause. What is somewhat
interesting is that you don't see the stickiness right after the first mix.
With rye you have inherent stickiness - the more rye, the more sticky. With
50 %, it's not very bad.

I find your recipe very interesting - do you know any more about the
background of the timings or is there a source where you got it?

Samartha

______________________________________________
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

"J Boehm" wrote in message news
I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat),
but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot.
The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let
it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest
overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or
not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might
influence the consistency?

Thanks / JB

Wow! OVERNIGHT? I am new to sourdoughs (cultured mine from the wild ones in the 'dirty old town') so the procedures I read are
quite helpful and confusing.

150g rye
50g starter
200g water
-----------
* 8 hours = 400g of sponge
-----------
-----------
400g sponge
500g wheat flour
100g rye flour
trace of salt
230g water
-----------
* 3 hours rise
+ 12" @ 240C (w/ steam)
+ 19" @ 220C
------------
ca. 1Kg loaf

Am I doing something wrong (only 3' rise time)?

"J Boehm" wrote in message news
I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat),
but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot.
The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let
it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest
overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or
not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might
influence the consistency?

Thanks / JB

Wow! OVERNIGHT? I am new to sourdoughs (cultured mine from the wild ones in the 'dirty old town') so the procedures I read are
quite helpful and confusing.

150g rye
50g starter
200g water
-----------
* 8 hours = 400g of sponge
-----------
-----------
400g sponge
500g wheat flour
100g rye flour
trace of salt
230g water
-----------
* 3 hours rise
+ 12" @ 240C (w/ steam)
+ 19" @ 220C
------------
ca. 1Kg loaf

Am I doing something wrong (only 3' rise time)?

"J Boehm" wrote in message news
I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat),
but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot.
The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let
it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest
overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or
not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might
influence the consistency?

Thanks / JB

Wow! OVERNIGHT? I am new to sourdoughs (cultured mine from the wild ones in the 'dirty old town') so the procedures I read are
quite helpful and confusing.

150g rye
50g starter
200g water
-----------
* 8 hours = 400g of sponge
-----------
-----------
400g sponge
500g wheat flour
100g rye flour
trace of salt
230g water
-----------
* 3 hours rise
+ 12" @ 240C (w/ steam)
+ 19" @ 220C
------------
ca. 1Kg loaf

Am I doing something wrong (only 3' rise time)?

I'm decidedly unscientific in my breadmaking. My method:

1c starter into 2c warm water, add flour to make pancake batter
ferment overnight
ADD flour to make soft dough, knead until no longer sticky and there's
a nice gluten sheet; I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I have
wrist problems and cannot knead by hand these days :P
RISE until doubled (usually 2-3 hours), punch down
RISE again until doubled (1-1.5hours), punch down, shape loaves
PROOF (1-1.5 hours)
BAKE

Note: I maintain my starter using good-quality commercial white bread
flour. I bake using homeground hard white wheat flour

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:18:13 -0000, "Capomaestro"
wrote:

Wow! OVERNIGHT? I am new to sourdoughs (cultured mine from the wild ones in the 'dirty old town') so the procedures I read are
quite helpful and confusing.

150g rye
50g starter
200g water
-----------
* 8 hours = 400g of sponge
-----------
-----------
400g sponge
500g wheat flour
100g rye flour
trace of salt
230g water
-----------
* 3 hours rise
+ 12" @ 240C (w/ steam)
+ 19" @ 220C
------------
ca. 1Kg loaf

Am I doing something wrong (only 3' rise time)?

I'm decidedly unscientific in my breadmaking. My method:

1c starter into 2c warm water, add flour to make pancake batter
ferment overnight
ADD flour to make soft dough, knead until no longer sticky and there's
a nice gluten sheet; I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I have
wrist problems and cannot knead by hand these days :P
RISE until doubled (usually 2-3 hours), punch down
RISE again until doubled (1-1.5hours), punch down, shape loaves
PROOF (1-1.5 hours)
BAKE

Note: I maintain my starter using good-quality commercial white bread
flour. I bake using homeground hard white wheat flour

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:18:13 -0000, "Capomaestro"
wrote:

Wow! OVERNIGHT? I am new to sourdoughs (cultured mine from the wild ones in the 'dirty old town') so the procedures I read are
quite helpful and confusing.

150g rye
50g starter
200g water
-----------
* 8 hours = 400g of sponge
-----------
-----------
400g sponge
500g wheat flour
100g rye flour
trace of salt
230g water
-----------
* 3 hours rise
+ 12" @ 240C (w/ steam)
+ 19" @ 220C
------------
ca. 1Kg loaf

Am I doing something wrong (only 3' rise time)?

"Wooly" wrote in message =
...

I'm decidedly unscientific in my breadmaking. My method:
=20
1c starter into 2c warm water, add flour to make pancake batter
ferment overnight
ADD flour to make soft dough, knead until no longer sticky and there's
a nice gluten sheet; I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I have
wrist problems and cannot knead by hand these days :P
RISE until doubled (usually 2-3 hours), punch down
RISE again until doubled (1-1.5hours), punch down, shape loaves
PROOF (1-1.5 hours)
BAKE
=20
Note: I maintain my starter using good-quality commercial white bread
flour. I bake using homeground hard white wheat flour

You are saying 2 punch-downs, mostly home-grown whole-wheat flour=20
(albeit white).

What does a "nice gluten sheet" look like. Is it possible with WW =
flour?
Is there enough diastatic activity in one cup of bread flour to overcome
amylase lack in added home-ground flour (estimated ~5 cups)?

Local common knowledge might predict that you are making sour-brick
loaves, notwithstanding that you proposed procedure is elegantly simple,
and that you may be avoiding stickiness by avoiding the use of rye =
flour.
Or perhaps your unscientific loaves are entirely theoretical?

These various questions could be resolved if you would post photos and
links (loaf, slice, "nice gluten sheet"). =20

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Wooly" wrote in message =
...

I'm decidedly unscientific in my breadmaking. My method:
=20
1c starter into 2c warm water, add flour to make pancake batter
ferment overnight
ADD flour to make soft dough, knead until no longer sticky and there's
a nice gluten sheet; I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I have
wrist problems and cannot knead by hand these days :P
RISE until doubled (usually 2-3 hours), punch down
RISE again until doubled (1-1.5hours), punch down, shape loaves
PROOF (1-1.5 hours)
BAKE
=20
Note: I maintain my starter using good-quality commercial white bread
flour. I bake using homeground hard white wheat flour

You are saying 2 punch-downs, mostly home-grown whole-wheat flour=20
(albeit white).

What does a "nice gluten sheet" look like. Is it possible with WW =
flour?
Is there enough diastatic activity in one cup of bread flour to overcome
amylase lack in added home-ground flour (estimated ~5 cups)?

Local common knowledge might predict that you are making sour-brick
loaves, notwithstanding that you proposed procedure is elegantly simple,
and that you may be avoiding stickiness by avoiding the use of rye =
flour.
Or perhaps your unscientific loaves are entirely theoretical?

These various questions could be resolved if you would post photos and
links (loaf, slice, "nice gluten sheet"). =20

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:38:37 GMT, "Dick Adams"
wrote:


"Wooly" wrote in message ...

I'm decidedly unscientific in my breadmaking. My method:

1c starter into 2c warm water, add flour to make pancake batter
ferment overnight
ADD flour to make soft dough, knead until no longer sticky and there's
a nice gluten sheet; I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I have
wrist problems and cannot knead by hand these days :P
RISE until doubled (usually 2-3 hours), punch down
RISE again until doubled (1-1.5hours), punch down, shape loaves
PROOF (1-1.5 hours)
BAKE

Note: I maintain my starter using good-quality commercial white bread
flour. I bake using homeground hard white wheat flour

You are saying 2 punch-downs

Yes. One overnight ferment, two rises and a proof. This allows the
yeasties adequate time to do their magic and produce the gluten we
know and love despite the strong character of the whole wheat flour.

, mostly home-grown whole-wheat flour
(albeit white).

No, not home GROWN, home GROUND. There's a difference. There are two
types of hard wheat - red and white. I prefer hard white wheat
because the end product isn't as coarse but I'm still getting the
benefit of the trace nutrients and fresh germ oils. Some people like
the hard red because of the coarseness, but I'm not one of them.

WHITE FLOUR is commercially ground flour that has had the bran and
germ removed. Not good for much in the way of nutrition.


What does a "nice gluten sheet" look like.

Work on your breadmaking skills and you too can identify one. As the
starch is worked off of the protein particles in the flour, the
protein begins to aggregate into strands. Get enough of them together
and you get a gluten sheet. This characteristic of wheat flour is
what allows the dough to rise and to spring in the oven. When you
have a good gluten sheet you'll be able to stretch the dough between
your fingers to such a thinness that you can read newsprint through
it. Note I said stretch. If it tears you ain't there yet.

Is it possible with WW flour?

Of course it is.

Is there enough diastatic activity in one cup of bread flour to overcome
amylase lack in added home-ground flour (estimated ~5 cups)?

I've been using home-ground whole wheat flour for years, for both
yeasted and sourdough bakes. Since I'm not obsessive in my approach
to breadmaking all I can say is that with one teaspoon of commercial
yeast, or 1/2 cup of my starter, plus two rises and a proof and I'll
put my four-loaf bake up against yours any day.

I don't ADD homeground ww flour, I use it exclusively except for the
quarter cup of white bread flour that comes in courtesy of the
starter.


Local common knowledge might predict that you are making sour-brick
loaves,

Please don't assume that because you have trouble producing good whole
wheat bread with a sour starter that I do too. We don't all want the
jam to fall through the holes in our toast The sourdough bread I
make is adequate to my needs - it has a fine crumb without being dense
or brickish. It keeps the butter and jam ON the toast and doesn't
allow same to run through onto my plate. I can use it to make
sandwiches without the mayo, the peanut butter, or the hummus falling
out through the holes in the crumb.

notwithstanding that you proposed procedure is elegantly simple,

Yes, and one I've perfected over 25 years of baking. The only
measurements required when I make bread are for the starter (or yeast)
and the liquid. Everything else is done based on the feel and
appearance of the dough.

and that you may be avoiding stickiness by avoiding the use of rye flour.

I don't use rye flour. As any baker will tell you, a wheat dough that
is slightly sticky going into the bowl for the first rise will NOT be
sticky coming out for the first punchdown. Why? Because the flour
particles absorb the "excess" moisture. If you set a perfectly
unsticky dough chances are you'll end up with a brick when you take it
out of the oven some hours later. Why? Because you worked in way too
much flour up front to unstickify the dough without considering the
effect it would have on the finished product.

Or perhaps your unscientific loaves are entirely theoretical?

Want me to send you one? By the time it arrives it'll be good and
stale, but since you're convinced I'm blowing smoke up your ass I'll
make the offer. I do expect you'll reimburse me for postage.


These various questions could be resolved if you would post photos and
links (loaf, slice, "nice gluten sheet").

Right. And perhaps you need to go forth and learn how to bake bread
intuitively instead of relying on other people's "scientific"
directions and your subsequent failures. Baking as a whole is a
science, but in my experience the baking of bread is an artform.

I'll refer you to the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book for further reading.

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:38:37 GMT, "Dick Adams"
wrote:


"Wooly" wrote in message ...

I'm decidedly unscientific in my breadmaking. My method:

1c starter into 2c warm water, add flour to make pancake batter
ferment overnight
ADD flour to make soft dough, knead until no longer sticky and there's
a nice gluten sheet; I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I have
wrist problems and cannot knead by hand these days :P
RISE until doubled (usually 2-3 hours), punch down
RISE again until doubled (1-1.5hours), punch down, shape loaves
PROOF (1-1.5 hours)
BAKE

Note: I maintain my starter using good-quality commercial white bread
flour. I bake using homeground hard white wheat flour

You are saying 2 punch-downs

Yes. One overnight ferment, two rises and a proof. This allows the
yeasties adequate time to do their magic and produce the gluten we
know and love despite the strong character of the whole wheat flour.

, mostly home-grown whole-wheat flour
(albeit white).

No, not home GROWN, home GROUND. There's a difference. There are two
types of hard wheat - red and white. I prefer hard white wheat
because the end product isn't as coarse but I'm still getting the
benefit of the trace nutrients and fresh germ oils. Some people like
the hard red because of the coarseness, but I'm not one of them.

WHITE FLOUR is commercially ground flour that has had the bran and
germ removed. Not good for much in the way of nutrition.


What does a "nice gluten sheet" look like.

Work on your breadmaking skills and you too can identify one. As the
starch is worked off of the protein particles in the flour, the
protein begins to aggregate into strands. Get enough of them together
and you get a gluten sheet. This characteristic of wheat flour is
what allows the dough to rise and to spring in the oven. When you
have a good gluten sheet you'll be able to stretch the dough between
your fingers to such a thinness that you can read newsprint through
it. Note I said stretch. If it tears you ain't there yet.

Is it possible with WW flour?

Of course it is.

Is there enough diastatic activity in one cup of bread flour to overcome
amylase lack in added home-ground flour (estimated ~5 cups)?

I've been using home-ground whole wheat flour for years, for both
yeasted and sourdough bakes. Since I'm not obsessive in my approach
to breadmaking all I can say is that with one teaspoon of commercial
yeast, or 1/2 cup of my starter, plus two rises and a proof and I'll
put my four-loaf bake up against yours any day.

I don't ADD homeground ww flour, I use it exclusively except for the
quarter cup of white bread flour that comes in courtesy of the
starter.


Local common knowledge might predict that you are making sour-brick
loaves,

Please don't assume that because you have trouble producing good whole
wheat bread with a sour starter that I do too. We don't all want the
jam to fall through the holes in our toast The sourdough bread I
make is adequate to my needs - it has a fine crumb without being dense
or brickish. It keeps the butter and jam ON the toast and doesn't
allow same to run through onto my plate. I can use it to make
sandwiches without the mayo, the peanut butter, or the hummus falling
out through the holes in the crumb.

notwithstanding that you proposed procedure is elegantly simple,

Yes, and one I've perfected over 25 years of baking. The only
measurements required when I make bread are for the starter (or yeast)
and the liquid. Everything else is done based on the feel and
appearance of the dough.

and that you may be avoiding stickiness by avoiding the use of rye flour.

I don't use rye flour. As any baker will tell you, a wheat dough that
is slightly sticky going into the bowl for the first rise will NOT be
sticky coming out for the first punchdown. Why? Because the flour
particles absorb the "excess" moisture. If you set a perfectly
unsticky dough chances are you'll end up with a brick when you take it
out of the oven some hours later. Why? Because you worked in way too
much flour up front to unstickify the dough without considering the
effect it would have on the finished product.

Or perhaps your unscientific loaves are entirely theoretical?

Want me to send you one? By the time it arrives it'll be good and
stale, but since you're convinced I'm blowing smoke up your ass I'll
make the offer. I do expect you'll reimburse me for postage.


These various questions could be resolved if you would post photos and
links (loaf, slice, "nice gluten sheet").

Right. And perhaps you need to go forth and learn how to bake bread
intuitively instead of relying on other people's "scientific"
directions and your subsequent failures. Baking as a whole is a
science, but in my experience the baking of bread is an artform.

I'll refer you to the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book for further reading.