I'm new at creating a "new starter" from "The basics by S. John Ross to use
for bread making....my question is do I stir the starter daily ? or just let
it ferment (every day)for the time it takes to have a bubbly froth....?? new
at this Ginny..

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:42:28 GMT, "Ginny" wrote:

I'm new at creating a "new starter" from "The basics by S. John Ross to use
for bread making....my question is do I stir the starter daily ? or just let
it ferment (every day)for the time it takes to have a bubbly froth....?? new
at this Ginny..


Howdy,

No need to stir... Also, if you did, it would be nearly impossible to
know when it was "frothy."

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:42:28 GMT, "Ginny" wrote:

I'm new at creating a "new starter" from "The basics by S. John Ross to use
for bread making....my question is do I stir the starter daily ? or just let
it ferment (every day)for the time it takes to have a bubbly froth....?? new
at this Ginny..


Howdy,

No need to stir... Also, if you did, it would be nearly impossible to
know when it was "frothy."

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Hi Kenneth - it's me again - contrary opinion as usual ;-)

There are several aspects to it.

If you look at my web site with growing your own starter from scratch
(http://samartha.net/SD/ ) -isch, you may get some more ideas about it.

A couple of points:

A.) Activity monitoring

To observe the current activity, it's probably a good idea to punch it down
in regular intervals, if it does not overflow and one _has_ to in order to
avoid a mess.

It all depends on hydration, of cause - too high and it won't rise, too
low, and it won't rise either; and on material - fine white flour behaves
differently from coarser whole grain.

That said, there is a limited capacity to rise in a container and once it
has risen to it's capacity (if it does not overflow), it won't rise anymore
despite gas development. So, how would one know if it still huffs or if it
stopped? Solution: punchdown. Gas is taken out, the capacity to observe
bubble development or rise and with it to get an idea about activity is
regained.

B.) Oxygenation

Organisms benefit from oxygen. It is not necessary and feasible with
sourdough baking but it is an undisputable fact that it helps. When growing
a starter, extra boost from added air helps spurring growth and this is the
basic direction this thing moves: promote growth, not retard.

C.) Nutrition supply

The winning sourdough organisms coming out of this process are not able to
move on their own. Stirring at regular intervals moves nutritions around
and promotes growth of desired organisms.

The points are not only helpful and apply to growing starters from scratch
but also for growing starters or "pre ferments" for making. When making
final dough, punchdown also can improve the dough structure besides
shuffling the nutrients around.

That does not mean it won't work without stirring.

Samartha




At 04:48 PM 10/19/2004, you wrote:
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:42:28 GMT, "Ginny" wrote:

I'm new at creating a "new starter" from "The basics by S. John Ross to use
for bread making....my question is do I stir the starter daily ? or just let
it ferment (every day)for the time it takes to have a bubbly froth....?? new
at this Ginny..


Howdy,

No need to stir... Also, if you did, it would be nearly impossible to
know when it was "frothy."

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
_______________________________________________
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough

Hi Kenneth - it's me again - contrary opinion as usual ;-)

There are several aspects to it.

If you look at my web site with growing your own starter from scratch
(http://samartha.net/SD/ ) -isch, you may get some more ideas about it.

A couple of points:

A.) Activity monitoring

To observe the current activity, it's probably a good idea to punch it down
in regular intervals, if it does not overflow and one _has_ to in order to
avoid a mess.

It all depends on hydration, of cause - too high and it won't rise, too
low, and it won't rise either; and on material - fine white flour behaves
differently from coarser whole grain.

That said, there is a limited capacity to rise in a container and once it
has risen to it's capacity (if it does not overflow), it won't rise anymore
despite gas development. So, how would one know if it still huffs or if it
stopped? Solution: punchdown. Gas is taken out, the capacity to observe
bubble development or rise and with it to get an idea about activity is
regained.

B.) Oxygenation

Organisms benefit from oxygen. It is not necessary and feasible with
sourdough baking but it is an undisputable fact that it helps. When growing
a starter, extra boost from added air helps spurring growth and this is the
basic direction this thing moves: promote growth, not retard.

C.) Nutrition supply

The winning sourdough organisms coming out of this process are not able to
move on their own. Stirring at regular intervals moves nutritions around
and promotes growth of desired organisms.

The points are not only helpful and apply to growing starters from scratch
but also for growing starters or "pre ferments" for making. When making
final dough, punchdown also can improve the dough structure besides
shuffling the nutrients around.

That does not mean it won't work without stirring.

Samartha




At 04:48 PM 10/19/2004, you wrote:
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:42:28 GMT, "Ginny" wrote:

I'm new at creating a "new starter" from "The basics by S. John Ross to use
for bread making....my question is do I stir the starter daily ? or just let
it ferment (every day)for the time it takes to have a bubbly froth....?? new
at this Ginny..


Howdy,

No need to stir... Also, if you did, it would be nearly impossible to
know when it was "frothy."

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
_______________________________________________
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:10:08 -0600, Samartha
wrote:

Hi Kenneth - it's me again - contrary opinion as usual ;-)

There are several aspects to it.

If you look at my web site with growing your own starter from scratch
(http://samartha.net/SD/ ) -isch, you may get some more ideas about it.

A couple of points:

A.) Activity monitoring

To observe the current activity, it's probably a good idea to punch it down
in regular intervals, if it does not overflow and one _has_ to in order to
avoid a mess.

It all depends on hydration, of cause - too high and it won't rise, too
low, and it won't rise either; and on material - fine white flour behaves
differently from coarser whole grain.

That said, there is a limited capacity to rise in a container and once it
has risen to it's capacity (if it does not overflow), it won't rise anymore
despite gas development. So, how would one know if it still huffs or if it
stopped? Solution: punchdown. Gas is taken out, the capacity to observe
bubble development or rise and with it to get an idea about activity is
regained.

B.) Oxygenation

Organisms benefit from oxygen. It is not necessary and feasible with
sourdough baking but it is an undisputable fact that it helps. When growing
a starter, extra boost from added air helps spurring growth and this is the
basic direction this thing moves: promote growth, not retard.

C.) Nutrition supply

The winning sourdough organisms coming out of this process are not able to
move on their own. Stirring at regular intervals moves nutritions around
and promotes growth of desired organisms.

The points are not only helpful and apply to growing starters from scratch
but also for growing starters or "pre ferments" for making. When making
final dough, punchdown also can improve the dough structure besides
shuffling the nutrients around.

That does not mean it won't work without stirring.

Samartha




At 04:48 PM 10/19/2004, you wrote:
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:42:28 GMT, "Ginny" wrote:

I'm new at creating a "new starter" from "The basics by S. John Ross to use
for bread making....my question is do I stir the starter daily ? or just let
it ferment (every day)for the time it takes to have a bubbly froth....?? new
at this Ginny..


Howdy,

No need to stir... Also, if you did, it would be nearly impossible to
know when it was "frothy."

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
______________________________________________ _
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough


Hi Samartha,

As always, your comments make great sense...

(Please don't top-post... It is maddening enough to try to understand
some of these threads without having to read:

Post 5
Post 2
Post 1
Post 3
Post 4)

Sincere thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:10:08 -0600, Samartha
wrote:

Hi Kenneth - it's me again - contrary opinion as usual ;-)

There are several aspects to it.

If you look at my web site with growing your own starter from scratch
(http://samartha.net/SD/ ) -isch, you may get some more ideas about it.

A couple of points:

A.) Activity monitoring

To observe the current activity, it's probably a good idea to punch it down
in regular intervals, if it does not overflow and one _has_ to in order to
avoid a mess.

It all depends on hydration, of cause - too high and it won't rise, too
low, and it won't rise either; and on material - fine white flour behaves
differently from coarser whole grain.

That said, there is a limited capacity to rise in a container and once it
has risen to it's capacity (if it does not overflow), it won't rise anymore
despite gas development. So, how would one know if it still huffs or if it
stopped? Solution: punchdown. Gas is taken out, the capacity to observe
bubble development or rise and with it to get an idea about activity is
regained.

B.) Oxygenation

Organisms benefit from oxygen. It is not necessary and feasible with
sourdough baking but it is an undisputable fact that it helps. When growing
a starter, extra boost from added air helps spurring growth and this is the
basic direction this thing moves: promote growth, not retard.

C.) Nutrition supply

The winning sourdough organisms coming out of this process are not able to
move on their own. Stirring at regular intervals moves nutritions around
and promotes growth of desired organisms.

The points are not only helpful and apply to growing starters from scratch
but also for growing starters or "pre ferments" for making. When making
final dough, punchdown also can improve the dough structure besides
shuffling the nutrients around.

That does not mean it won't work without stirring.

Samartha




At 04:48 PM 10/19/2004, you wrote:
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:42:28 GMT, "Ginny" wrote:

I'm new at creating a "new starter" from "The basics by S. John Ross to use
for bread making....my question is do I stir the starter daily ? or just let
it ferment (every day)for the time it takes to have a bubbly froth....?? new
at this Ginny..


Howdy,

No need to stir... Also, if you did, it would be nearly impossible to
know when it was "frothy."

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
______________________________________________ _
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough


Hi Samartha,

As always, your comments make great sense...

(Please don't top-post... It is maddening enough to try to understand
some of these threads without having to read:

Post 5
Post 2
Post 1
Post 3
Post 4)

Sincere thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

Hi Samartha,

As always, your comments make great sense...

(Please don't top-post... It is maddening enough to try to understand
some of these threads without having to read:

Post 5
Post 2
Post 1
Post 3
Post 4)

Sincere thanks,

Or, *always* top-post. With long, much-quoted, recent discussions, it
makes sense to read the latest at the top, without having to scroll.
Standard is bottom though, I agree.

Dave

Kenneth wrote:

Hi Samartha,

As always, your comments make great sense...

(Please don't top-post... It is maddening enough to try to understand
some of these threads without having to read:

Post 5
Post 2
Post 1
Post 3
Post 4)

Sincere thanks,

Or, *always* top-post. With long, much-quoted, recent discussions, it
makes sense to read the latest at the top, without having to scroll.
Standard is bottom though, I agree.

Dave

"Samartha" wrote in message =
news:mailman.1098245469.14661.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c=
om...

[ ... ] (material extraneous to below comments was deleted)

To observe the current activity, it's probably a good idea to punch it =
down=20
in regular intervals ...

I never heard about punching down a starter. Assuming that it is made =
to
the consistency of being just barely stirable with a chopstick, it will =
rise to=20
a level where it will stay for a good while, notwithstanding that the =
optimum
time to feed it or use it for inoculation is slightly before its height =
stabilizes.

... how would one know if it still huffs or if it stopped?

Why should one care? If it is up and not moving, one could assume
that it is close enough to stationary phase, as in
http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC9

Solution: punchdown.=20

Mike Avery was/is? big on punchdowns. Maybe the condition is
contagious? Punching down dough two or three times, now=20
punching down starters.

to get an idea about (whether?) activity is regained.

Does it matter? For a stored starter, activity will continue slowly
for a while as the peak height is approached, no doubt in part slowed
by nutrient diffusion as well as nutrient depletion.

Organisms benefit from oxygen.=20

Not always. Our sourdough organisms are anaerobes for practical
purposes, though yeasts may be facilitative aerobes. In fact, in dough
and in stout starters (and unstirred batters) insignificant oxygen is =
available.

Stirring at regular intervals moves nutritions around and promotes=20
growth of desired organisms.

Also ploughs under the undesirable aerobes, like molds, which grow
at the surface where oxygen is available.

When making final dough, punchdown also can improve the=20
dough structure besides shuffling the nutrients around.

You, of all people, should understand the difference between
punching and massaging. Take stretching and folding, for instance --
does that seem like punching?

Can we not say punchdown, but rather concentrate on the=20
manipulations which structure and tension dough for good rising
and desired crumb texture?

That does not mean it won't work without stirring.

By me, if you make your starter right, to the point where it is=20
becoming difficult to stir it with a chopstick, it is difficult to stir,
and just as well left alone.

For the newcomer:
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/starter.html
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howshoul...tarterfor.html

--=20
Dick Adams
(Sourdough minimalist)
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Samartha" wrote in message =
news:mailman.1098245469.14661.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c=
om...

[ ... ] (material extraneous to below comments was deleted)

To observe the current activity, it's probably a good idea to punch it =
down=20
in regular intervals ...

I never heard about punching down a starter. Assuming that it is made =
to
the consistency of being just barely stirable with a chopstick, it will =
rise to=20
a level where it will stay for a good while, notwithstanding that the =
optimum
time to feed it or use it for inoculation is slightly before its height =
stabilizes.

... how would one know if it still huffs or if it stopped?

Why should one care? If it is up and not moving, one could assume
that it is close enough to stationary phase, as in
http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC9

Solution: punchdown.=20

Mike Avery was/is? big on punchdowns. Maybe the condition is
contagious? Punching down dough two or three times, now=20
punching down starters.

to get an idea about (whether?) activity is regained.

Does it matter? For a stored starter, activity will continue slowly
for a while as the peak height is approached, no doubt in part slowed
by nutrient diffusion as well as nutrient depletion.

Organisms benefit from oxygen.=20

Not always. Our sourdough organisms are anaerobes for practical
purposes, though yeasts may be facilitative aerobes. In fact, in dough
and in stout starters (and unstirred batters) insignificant oxygen is =
available.

Stirring at regular intervals moves nutritions around and promotes=20
growth of desired organisms.

Also ploughs under the undesirable aerobes, like molds, which grow
at the surface where oxygen is available.

When making final dough, punchdown also can improve the=20
dough structure besides shuffling the nutrients around.

You, of all people, should understand the difference between
punching and massaging. Take stretching and folding, for instance --
does that seem like punching?

Can we not say punchdown, but rather concentrate on the=20
manipulations which structure and tension dough for good rising
and desired crumb texture?

That does not mean it won't work without stirring.

By me, if you make your starter right, to the point where it is=20
becoming difficult to stir it with a chopstick, it is difficult to stir,
and just as well left alone.

For the newcomer:
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/starter.html
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howshoul...tarterfor.html

--=20
Dick Adams
(Sourdough minimalist)
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Dave Bell" wrote in message =
news
Kenneth wrote:
... Please don't top-post...=20

Or, *always* top-post.=20
... it makes sense to read the latest at the top, without having to =
scroll.=20
Standard is bottom though, I agree.

Or maybe we can have a long, deadly polemic on top-loading vs.=20
bottom-loading?

Or you learn to use your editor to focus your comments as suggested
in item #4 at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html

If you take a look at the threads in the Google Archives, you may
gain an appreciation for what a big mess indiscriminant requoting=20
(whether top- or bottom loaded) makes.

---
DickA

"Dave Bell" wrote in message =
news
Kenneth wrote:
... Please don't top-post...=20

Or, *always* top-post.=20
... it makes sense to read the latest at the top, without having to =
scroll.=20
Standard is bottom though, I agree.

Or maybe we can have a long, deadly polemic on top-loading vs.=20
bottom-loading?

Or you learn to use your editor to focus your comments as suggested
in item #4 at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html

If you take a look at the threads in the Google Archives, you may
gain an appreciation for what a big mess indiscriminant requoting=20
(whether top- or bottom loaded) makes.

---
DickA

"Dave Bell" wrote in message =
news
Kenneth wrote:
... Please don't top-post...=20

Or, *always* top-post.=20
... it makes sense to read the latest at the top, without having to =
scroll.=20
Standard is bottom though, I agree.

Or maybe we can have a long, deadly polemic on top-loading vs.=20
bottom-loading?

Or you learn to use your editor to focus your comments as suggested
in item #4 at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html

If you take a look at the threads in the Google Archives, you may
gain an appreciation for what a big mess indiscriminant requoting=20
(whether top- or bottom loaded) makes.

---
DickA

"Dave Bell" wrote in message =
news
Kenneth wrote:
... Please don't top-post...=20

Or, *always* top-post.=20
... it makes sense to read the latest at the top, without having to =
scroll.=20
Standard is bottom though, I agree.

Or maybe we can have a long, deadly polemic on top-loading vs.=20
bottom-loading?

Or you learn to use your editor to focus your comments as suggested
in item #4 at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html

If you take a look at the threads in the Google Archives, you may
gain an appreciation for what a big mess indiscriminant requoting=20
(whether top- or bottom loaded) makes.

---
DickA