On 9/17/04 1:28 PM, "Joe Doe" wrote:

The real rational for large irregular holes and shaping is the following:

When you stretch and fold you are creating layers of dough with large
air pockets. The number and distribution of the pockets will depend on
how hard you handle the dough - If you merely fold, one large air sheet
can be imagined. If you then stretch and fold again, the sheet will
have smaller pockets because smaller pockets will form as you handle the
dough (you are sticking together opposing sheets of dough by handling).
So with 2 or 3 cycles of stretching and folding you will have created a
larger network of air pockets irregularly distributed. If you handle
the dough very hard and squeeze all the air by squeezing the opposing
dough halves together in a stretch and fold cycle, you will have few
irregular holes. On the other hand if you are too gentle the final loaf
will have obvious sheets of air separating sheets of dough.

What I do is stretch and then roll up the dough (same effect as above).
The dough is then flattened out (gently so as to not squeeze out too
many air pockets) and rolled up at 90 degrees to the previous cycle. A
few cycles of this and you will get the effect you desire.

So the secret for large holes is during the shaping.

Roland

I really liked the idea of mechanically introducing air into the final
proof. Made lots of sense. So for this afternoon's bake, I gave Mr. Roland's
technique a try. I didn't have a wet dough available, I had a 65%'er,
straight white flour with a hint of rye, very slightly kneaded, retarded
overnight. Same as I always do, except I gave it a "stretch and roll" twice
before I bouled it up. No resting between the stretch and rolls either.

Works like a dream. Loaves literally soared in the oven. Beautiful wide-open
crumb. I would add the following modest addendum to the technique:

Be very sure to slash the loaves deeply and be thorough about it. The loaves
will tear if you don't.

Will


_______________________________________________
rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

"williamwaller" wrote in message =
news:mailman.0.1095552750.243.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
=20
[ ... ]

("Roland hits a homer!")

Works like a dream. Loaves literally soared in the oven. Beautiful =
wide-open
crumb.=20

We don't know what results Roland gets, or you either, until we get some
photos.

Here is another experiment by me, thinking about what Roland and Dusty
said in this thread. Still not the holey big-time, but maybe =
interesting to
some. The dough got really bucky with the S&F's.

http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/Francense/
--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"williamwaller" wrote in message =
news:mailman.0.1095552750.243.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
=20
[ ... ]

("Roland hits a homer!")

Works like a dream. Loaves literally soared in the oven. Beautiful =
wide-open
crumb.=20

We don't know what results Roland gets, or you either, until we get some
photos.

Here is another experiment by me, thinking about what Roland and Dusty
said in this thread. Still not the holey big-time, but maybe =
interesting to
some. The dough got really bucky with the S&F's.

http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/Francense/
--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

In article
,
"Dick Adams" wrote:

"williamwaller" wrote in message
news:mailman.0.1095552750.243.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

[ ... ]

("Roland hits a homer!")

Works like a dream. Loaves literally soared in the oven. Beautiful
wide-open
crumb.

We don't know what results Roland gets, or you either, until we get some
photos.





Well, I did bake over the weekend. 100 %sourdough, 25% Whole wheat, 65%
hydration. The results were not a show off loaf, but I can mail you
photos that you are welcome to post on your site. Can you accept large
pictures( 4 pics 500-650 KB each)?

The loaf did not have any oven spring because of constraints I had wrt
to timing but nonetheless illustrates my main point:

You will see that the large irregular holes (& incipient large holes
that did not swell) in the loaf I show actually follow a swirl pattern
that reflects how I rolled up the loaf (clear in at least a few of the
photos I will send you). Had there been better gassing and oven spring
(you will see the loaf is compressed on the bottom) the texture of the
crumb would have been better with the hole size range in the main body
of the crumb matching the large uneven holes - the swirl pattern of the
holes would not have been so obvious because the holes would have been
evenly matched.

Here is a link from a flour supplier whose ideas wrt to mixing are in
consonance with my own.

http://www.progressivebaker.com/class/section5.htm#


By the way they are a division of Cargil, and supply a number of Artisan
bakeries. While you can easily dismiss my opinions you can be assured
they would be stupid to promote misinformation because this is their
business.


Incidentally, I do not dispute that stretch and fold develops the dough.
With respect to the irregular hole texture I feel that it is really the
process of creating dough laminations (like puff pastry - only instead
of butter to separate layers, you are using a little flour) that is most
important. Secondly, I am not claiming that all holes originate this way
- only the large irregular holes.

Since I am a scientist I offer an experiment that might falsify my
theory:

Next time wcsjohn (or others) use the technique instead of stretching
the dough roll it out with a rolling pin with heavy pressure. Make the
same folds and roll out with heavy pressure with a rolling pin again.
Repeat cycles with rolling pin and heavy pressure. This will squeeze
out most of the trapped air bubbles and I would predict that the crumb
would not have the same amount of large irregular holes as simple
stretch and fold (fingers crossed ).

Roland

In article
,
"Dick Adams" wrote:

"williamwaller" wrote in message
news:mailman.0.1095552750.243.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

[ ... ]

("Roland hits a homer!")

Works like a dream. Loaves literally soared in the oven. Beautiful
wide-open
crumb.

We don't know what results Roland gets, or you either, until we get some
photos.





Well, I did bake over the weekend. 100 %sourdough, 25% Whole wheat, 65%
hydration. The results were not a show off loaf, but I can mail you
photos that you are welcome to post on your site. Can you accept large
pictures( 4 pics 500-650 KB each)?

The loaf did not have any oven spring because of constraints I had wrt
to timing but nonetheless illustrates my main point:

You will see that the large irregular holes (& incipient large holes
that did not swell) in the loaf I show actually follow a swirl pattern
that reflects how I rolled up the loaf (clear in at least a few of the
photos I will send you). Had there been better gassing and oven spring
(you will see the loaf is compressed on the bottom) the texture of the
crumb would have been better with the hole size range in the main body
of the crumb matching the large uneven holes - the swirl pattern of the
holes would not have been so obvious because the holes would have been
evenly matched.

Here is a link from a flour supplier whose ideas wrt to mixing are in
consonance with my own.

http://www.progressivebaker.com/class/section5.htm#


By the way they are a division of Cargil, and supply a number of Artisan
bakeries. While you can easily dismiss my opinions you can be assured
they would be stupid to promote misinformation because this is their
business.


Incidentally, I do not dispute that stretch and fold develops the dough.
With respect to the irregular hole texture I feel that it is really the
process of creating dough laminations (like puff pastry - only instead
of butter to separate layers, you are using a little flour) that is most
important. Secondly, I am not claiming that all holes originate this way
- only the large irregular holes.

Since I am a scientist I offer an experiment that might falsify my
theory:

Next time wcsjohn (or others) use the technique instead of stretching
the dough roll it out with a rolling pin with heavy pressure. Make the
same folds and roll out with heavy pressure with a rolling pin again.
Repeat cycles with rolling pin and heavy pressure. This will squeeze
out most of the trapped air bubbles and I would predict that the crumb
would not have the same amount of large irregular holes as simple
stretch and fold (fingers crossed ).

Roland

In article
,
"Dick Adams" wrote:

"williamwaller" wrote in message
news:mailman.0.1095552750.243.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

[ ... ]

("Roland hits a homer!")

Works like a dream. Loaves literally soared in the oven. Beautiful
wide-open
crumb.

We don't know what results Roland gets, or you either, until we get some
photos.





Well, I did bake over the weekend. 100 %sourdough, 25% Whole wheat, 65%
hydration. The results were not a show off loaf, but I can mail you
photos that you are welcome to post on your site. Can you accept large
pictures( 4 pics 500-650 KB each)?

The loaf did not have any oven spring because of constraints I had wrt
to timing but nonetheless illustrates my main point:

You will see that the large irregular holes (& incipient large holes
that did not swell) in the loaf I show actually follow a swirl pattern
that reflects how I rolled up the loaf (clear in at least a few of the
photos I will send you). Had there been better gassing and oven spring
(you will see the loaf is compressed on the bottom) the texture of the
crumb would have been better with the hole size range in the main body
of the crumb matching the large uneven holes - the swirl pattern of the
holes would not have been so obvious because the holes would have been
evenly matched.

Here is a link from a flour supplier whose ideas wrt to mixing are in
consonance with my own.

http://www.progressivebaker.com/class/section5.htm#


By the way they are a division of Cargil, and supply a number of Artisan
bakeries. While you can easily dismiss my opinions you can be assured
they would be stupid to promote misinformation because this is their
business.


Incidentally, I do not dispute that stretch and fold develops the dough.
With respect to the irregular hole texture I feel that it is really the
process of creating dough laminations (like puff pastry - only instead
of butter to separate layers, you are using a little flour) that is most
important. Secondly, I am not claiming that all holes originate this way
- only the large irregular holes.

Since I am a scientist I offer an experiment that might falsify my
theory:

Next time wcsjohn (or others) use the technique instead of stretching
the dough roll it out with a rolling pin with heavy pressure. Make the
same folds and roll out with heavy pressure with a rolling pin again.
Repeat cycles with rolling pin and heavy pressure. This will squeeze
out most of the trapped air bubbles and I would predict that the crumb
would not have the same amount of large irregular holes as simple
stretch and fold (fingers crossed ).

Roland

Roland AKA "Joe Doe" wrote in message=20
...

I can mail you photos that you are welcome to post on your site.=20
Can you accept large pictures( 4 pics 500-650 KB each)?

If you mean me, I can accept them, but accept them better if they
are sent one with each of 4 emails. =20

You could post them yourself at some place like www.zippyimages.com
but that is not to say that I would not enjoy posting them.

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com

Roland AKA "Joe Doe" wrote in message=20
...

I can mail you photos that you are welcome to post on your site.=20
Can you accept large pictures( 4 pics 500-650 KB each)?

If you mean me, I can accept them, but accept them better if they
are sent one with each of 4 emails. =20

You could post them yourself at some place like www.zippyimages.com
but that is not to say that I would not enjoy posting them.

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com

Roland AKA "Joe Doe" wrote in message=20
...

I can mail you photos that you are welcome to post on your site.=20
Can you accept large pictures( 4 pics 500-650 KB each)?

If you mean me, I can accept them, but accept them better if they
are sent one with each of 4 emails. =20

You could post them yourself at some place like www.zippyimages.com
but that is not to say that I would not enjoy posting them.

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com

In article
,
"Dick Adams" wrote:

Roland AKA "Joe Doe" wrote in message
...

I can mail you photos that you are welcome to post on your site.
Can you accept large pictures( 4 pics 500-650 KB each)?

If you mean me, I can accept them, but accept them better if they
are sent one with each of 4 emails.

You could post them yourself at some place like www.zippyimages.com
but that is not to say that I would not enjoy posting them.http://www.zippyimages.com/files/111252/bread__loaf.jpg


Ah good site discovery.

The images are posted to zippyimages.com with links below.

My commentary from the previous post applies.


http://www.zippyimages.com/files/111252/bread__loaf.jpg

http://www.zippyimages.com/files/111...ead_loaf_2.jpg

http://www.zippyimages.com/files/111254/slice.jpg

http://www.zippyimages.com/files/111255/slice2.jpg

Roland

In article
,
"Dick Adams" wrote:

Roland AKA "Joe Doe" wrote in message
...

I can mail you photos that you are welcome to post on your site.
Can you accept large pictures( 4 pics 500-650 KB each)?

If you mean me, I can accept them, but accept them better if they
are sent one with each of 4 emails.

You could post them yourself at some place like www.zippyimages.com
but that is not to say that I would not enjoy posting them.http://www.zippyimages.com/files/111252/bread__loaf.jpg


Ah good site discovery.

The images are posted to zippyimages.com with links below.

My commentary from the previous post applies.


http://www.zippyimages.com/files/111252/bread__loaf.jpg

http://www.zippyimages.com/files/111...ead_loaf_2.jpg

http://www.zippyimages.com/files/111254/slice.jpg

http://www.zippyimages.com/files/111255/slice2.jpg

Roland

In article
,
"Dick Adams" wrote:

Roland AKA "Joe Doe" wrote in message
...

I can mail you photos that you are welcome to post on your site.
Can you accept large pictures( 4 pics 500-650 KB each)?

If you mean me, I can accept them, but accept them better if they
are sent one with each of 4 emails.

You could post them yourself at some place like www.zippyimages.com
but that is not to say that I would not enjoy posting them.http://www.zippyimages.com/files/111252/bread__loaf.jpg


Ah good site discovery.

The images are posted to zippyimages.com with links below.

My commentary from the previous post applies.


http://www.zippyimages.com/files/111252/bread__loaf.jpg

http://www.zippyimages.com/files/111...ead_loaf_2.jpg

http://www.zippyimages.com/files/111254/slice.jpg

http://www.zippyimages.com/files/111255/slice2.jpg

Roland

I have almost been able to follow the many posts about s&f (is that shipping
and fondling). So I got all excited and made some 78% hydration bread last
week.

I used a few s&f's and John's method of pulling the loaves to shape at the last
minute before going in the oven. A photo link is enclosed. I have labeled the
photo. While many large holes are from a "mechanical" substrate due to folding,
I like to think there are also large holes to be had from "Thermodynamic"
activity. I prefer these. The cell wall structure is different and more
attractive.

Unfortunately my thermodynamic holes all seem to be near the surface and on the
verge of flying crust. There's got to be a way to get the gas pocket type cells
without flour lined folds.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/MyCiabatta.jpg

Ed Bechtel

PS. This bread wasn't very good. It took forever to make toast. The wife
wouldn't eat it and I saw a sparrow making funny faces trying to eat the crumbs
I threw in the back yard.

I have almost been able to follow the many posts about s&f (is that shipping
and fondling). So I got all excited and made some 78% hydration bread last
week.

I used a few s&f's and John's method of pulling the loaves to shape at the last
minute before going in the oven. A photo link is enclosed. I have labeled the
photo. While many large holes are from a "mechanical" substrate due to folding,
I like to think there are also large holes to be had from "Thermodynamic"
activity. I prefer these. The cell wall structure is different and more
attractive.

Unfortunately my thermodynamic holes all seem to be near the surface and on the
verge of flying crust. There's got to be a way to get the gas pocket type cells
without flour lined folds.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/MyCiabatta.jpg

Ed Bechtel

PS. This bread wasn't very good. It took forever to make toast. The wife
wouldn't eat it and I saw a sparrow making funny faces trying to eat the crumbs
I threw in the back yard.

Ed Bechtel

PS. This bread wasn't very good. It took forever to make toast. The wife
wouldn't eat it and I saw a sparrow making funny faces trying to eat the
crumbs
I threw in the back yard.

Was the crumb unpleasantly moist and gummy?

John