On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" wrote:
snip good description of folding process...

Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until
doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The
dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle.

John,

At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason
why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise?

Will


HTH

John




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On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" wrote:
snip good description of folding process...

Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until
doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The
dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle.

John,

At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason
why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise?

Will


HTH

John




_______________________________________________
rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" wrote:
snip good description of folding process...

Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until
doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The
dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle.

John,

At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason
why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise?

Will


HTH

John




_______________________________________________
rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" wrote:
snip good description of folding process...

Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until
doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The
dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle.

John,

At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason
why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise?

Will


HTH

John




_______________________________________________
rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" wrote:
snip good description of folding process...

Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until
doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The
dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle.

John,

At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason
why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise?

Will


HTH

John




_______________________________________________
rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" wrote:
snip good description of folding process...

Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until
doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The
dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle.

John,

At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason
why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise?

I just find I get a little more volume if I give a bulk rise and then cut into
loaves with as little deflation as possible.

A small point but achieving this kind of open structure is does require
attention to a number of small points.

John

On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" wrote:
snip good description of folding process...

Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until
doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The
dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle.

John,

At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason
why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise?

I just find I get a little more volume if I give a bulk rise and then cut into
loaves with as little deflation as possible.

A small point but achieving this kind of open structure is does require
attention to a number of small points.

John

On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" wrote:
snip good description of folding process...

Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until
doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The
dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle.

John,

At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason
why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise?

I just find I get a little more volume if I give a bulk rise and then cut into
loaves with as little deflation as possible.

A small point but achieving this kind of open structure is does require
attention to a number of small points.

John

On 9/18/04 10:48 PM, "Dick Adams" wrote:


"williamwaller" wrote in message
news:mailman.0.1095552750.243.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

[ ... ]

("Roland hits a homer!")

Works like a dream. Loaves literally soared in the oven. Beautiful wide-open
crumb.

We don't know what results Roland gets, or you either, until we get some
photos.

Dick,

My @#$%^&* camera is on the fritz. It was one of those cheap H-P's that came
with my Mac. So I cannot accommodate you. Sadly, the big hole loaves are
about to be toast this morning g.

Moving on...I am quite anxious to see how this lamination process works for
whole grain loaves.

Will


Here is another experiment by me, thinking about what Roland and Dusty
said in this thread. Still not the holey big-time, but maybe interesting to
some. The dough got really bucky with the S&F's.

http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/Francense/

"williamwaller" wrote in message =
news:mailman.0.1095609415.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

My @#$%^&* camera is on the fritz. It was one of those cheap H-
P's that came with my Mac. So I cannot accommodate you. Sadly, the=20
big hole loaves are about to be toast this morning g.

That is understandable. Kenneth, who has been here for years,=20
and who has every gadget known to mankind, has never succeeded to=20
produce a graphic. "Bob", who was the most prodigious exploiter=20
ever of effusive nomenclature at r.f.s. finally produced an image=20
of a Schlotzky Bun wannabe, as I recall, but I can't find it=20
anymore. Maybe that should give us some hope, anyway.

Bob's wife would not let him use the scanner for bread, which was=20
very sad. But not so sad as a busted crappy digital camera, I=20
guess.

Moving on...I am quite anxious to see how this lamination process=20
works for whole grain loaves.

Well, you will probably have better luck than I would,=20
particularly since you have no way to create a record of your=20
results. The secret is to just wait a few days before attempting=20
to recall and describe the degree of success you achieved. =20
Actually, waiting several weeks is better. My doctor always=20
waits for several months before recording the results of my=20
physical examinations. That is why I am so healthy.

Maybe it is time to revisit the Schlotzky Bun. It is something=20
like we have been talking about. Scroll down at=20
http://www.schlotzskys.com/. I have been thinking about=20
making one bun at a time in my experiments so as not to waste=20
flour.

--=20
DickA=20

On 9/22/04 3:07 PM, "Dick Adams" wrote:


"Ed Bechtel" wrote in message
...

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/MyCiabatta.jpg

This bread wasn't very good. It took forever to make toast. The wife
wouldn't eat it and I saw a sparrow making funny faces trying to eat the
crumbs I threw in the back yard.

"Wcsjohn" wrote in message
...

Was the crumb unpleasantly moist and gummy?

"Ed Bechtel" wrote in message
...

Yes.

Well, I made another "loaf", but it was so bad I do not even want
to talk about it. Woe is me! I guess it's bread at the store for me.
Too bad about Wonderbread! What will be left at the store?

---
DickA

This is your Karma for insisting on pictures g and your generally
suspicious nature bg. Get with the program: retard your bread. It will
taste better and be easier to stretch and fold very bg.

Will



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"williamwaller" wrote in message =
news:mailman.2.1095884692.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

On 9/22/04 3:07 PM, "Dick Adams" wrote:

Woe is me! I guess it's bread at the store for me.
=20
This is your Karma for insisting on pictures g and your generally
suspicious nature bg.=20

Politely asking is not insisting on. How can one avoid being suspicious
of people who say things like:
"Works like a dream. Loaves literally soared in the oven. Beautiful =
wide-open
crumb."
???
as in =
news:mailman.0.1095552750.243.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com

Well, "Joe Doe", who appeared about that time, came up with some =
pictures,
though seeming a bit lukewarm about them. All we have from you, =
however, is
exuberation, and complaints about certain cameras that come with =
Macintoshes.

---
DickA

On 9/26/04 9:39 AM, "Dick Adams" wrote:


"Joe Doe" wrote in message
...

[ ... ]

So to get large holes you need:
1) a very extensible gluten web at optimum maturity and strength
2) very good yeast gassing to fully inflate this web
3) avoid deflating cells by handling especially close to bake time.
4) hot oven and steam to maximize oven spring ...

Except for 4) I agree. I am still trying to believe that it is possible
to make the holey loaf in a cold-started, and not-particularly-hot,
oven. Mrs. Adams does not like the heat and water vapor in he
kitchen. Maybe she will start sleeping late eventually, but so far
she is up with the dawn each day.

Cold-start is good from an environmentally-conservative point of
view*. Now I ask you (anybody) this: What is the difference between
taking the last part of the rise in the oven, and taking it before baking?
Quicker in the oven! What else?

Dick,

I have struggled with #4 myself as well. My gas oven retains a lot of water
vapor (is damp) during the early stages of heating. But that hasn't
translated into keeping the crust soft enough to fully develop the crumb. I
get better loaves from a very hot start and proper slashing to facilitate
the final push. I bake this way when I proof in baskets and invert.

As to your question "what else..."

I also use La Cloche covered bakers, primarily when I want a long, extensive
proof, almost an over-proof situation, where the dough becomes too flaccid
to handle. Most of my heavier whole grain breads get this treatment. These
loaves work best with a covered cold start while the oven builds to 500 F.
Then I heat soak the loaves uncovered for 12-15 minutes to mature the crust.
I suppose that would translate into "taking the last part of the rise in the
oven", except the doughs are usually so mature there is little spring
potential. It is more trapping the outgassed dough moisture as an analogue
for "steam" than anything else. This works quite well (not to the point of
ebullience) but has proven far superior, and simpler, than any other
machination for generating "steam" like pans with water, spritzing the oven,
etc...

Will
Will

"williamwaller" wrote in message =
news:mailman.5.1096214652.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

I have struggled with #4 myself as well. My gas oven retains a lot of =
water
vapor (is damp) during the early stages of heating. But that hasn't
translated into keeping the crust soft enough to fully develop the =
crumb.

My point would be: if you take the whole rise before baking, there is =
not
a need to keep the crust pliable.

So, to revise the question: can the crumb be developed as the dough
rises on the bench, and if not, why not??=20

In other words, exactly why is it that we need a hot oven to make the
loaves holey?

Well, we are heating some gases, and vaporizing a bit of alcohol. And =
getting
a death blast of carbon dioxide from the "critters". But why not just =
arrange
for the critters to do a bit more work as the loaf sits on the counter?

I get better loaves from a very hot start and proper slashing to =
facilitate
the final push. I bake this way when I proof in baskets and invert.

Well, proper slashing is quite a knack, you know! And the basket flip
is a marvelous antic, when mastered. I always had trouble with both.

I also use La Cloche covered bakers, primarily when I want a long, =
extensive
proof, almost an over-proof situation, where the dough becomes too =
flaccid
to handle. Most of my heavier whole grain breads get this treatment. =
These
loaves work best with a covered cold start while the oven builds to =
500 F.
Then I heat soak the loaves uncovered for 12-15 minutes to mature the =
crust.
I suppose that would translate into "taking the last part of the rise =
in the
oven", except the doughs are usually so mature there is little spring
potential. It is more trapping the outgassed dough moisture as an =
analogue
for "steam" than anything else. This works quite well (not to the =
point of
ebullience) but has proven far superior, and simpler, than any other
machination for generating "steam" like pans with water, spritzing the =
oven,
etc...

Well, it sounds like you have got the cloche bake down to a routine. =
Could
you post some photos of your cloche-baked loaves?

(For some reason I thought one started with a preheated cloche, and I =
trepidated
at the very thought of handling such a thing. "Carlos" did some =
admirable work=20
with a flower pot: http://home.att.net/carlospics/ArtisanalLoaf.htm. =
Well, it says
to look for further developments, but so far I have not seen any.)

--=20
Dick Adams
(Sourdough minimalist)
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"williamwaller" wrote in message =
news:mailman.5.1096214652.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

I have struggled with #4 myself as well. My gas oven retains a lot of =
water
vapor (is damp) during the early stages of heating. But that hasn't
translated into keeping the crust soft enough to fully develop the =
crumb.

My point would be: if you take the whole rise before baking, there is =
not
a need to keep the crust pliable.

So, to revise the question: can the crumb be developed as the dough
rises on the bench, and if not, why not??=20

In other words, exactly why is it that we need a hot oven to make the
loaves holey?

Well, we are heating some gases, and vaporizing a bit of alcohol. And =
getting
a death blast of carbon dioxide from the "critters". But why not just =
arrange
for the critters to do a bit more work as the loaf sits on the counter?

I get better loaves from a very hot start and proper slashing to =
facilitate
the final push. I bake this way when I proof in baskets and invert.

Well, proper slashing is quite a knack, you know! And the basket flip
is a marvelous antic, when mastered. I always had trouble with both.

I also use La Cloche covered bakers, primarily when I want a long, =
extensive
proof, almost an over-proof situation, where the dough becomes too =
flaccid
to handle. Most of my heavier whole grain breads get this treatment. =
These
loaves work best with a covered cold start while the oven builds to =
500 F.
Then I heat soak the loaves uncovered for 12-15 minutes to mature the =
crust.
I suppose that would translate into "taking the last part of the rise =
in the
oven", except the doughs are usually so mature there is little spring
potential. It is more trapping the outgassed dough moisture as an =
analogue
for "steam" than anything else. This works quite well (not to the =
point of
ebullience) but has proven far superior, and simpler, than any other
machination for generating "steam" like pans with water, spritzing the =
oven,
etc...

Well, it sounds like you have got the cloche bake down to a routine. =
Could
you post some photos of your cloche-baked loaves?

(For some reason I thought one started with a preheated cloche, and I =
trepidated
at the very thought of handling such a thing. "Carlos" did some =
admirable work=20
with a flower pot: http://home.att.net/carlospics/ArtisanalLoaf.htm. =
Well, it says
to look for further developments, but so far I have not seen any.)

--=20
Dick Adams
(Sourdough minimalist)
firstname dot lastname at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html