i recently ordered starter from friends of carl, activated the starter and
the starter get very active. make bread using 1 cup of starter, let rise,
usually 1st rise is 3-4 hours, 2nd rise 2 hours. bake the bread. when
done bread tastes good but sourdough taste. i use unbleached flour in the
starter and bleached flour in the bread. tried with both tap and bottled
water.

0oh, where has my sour gone?

TIA
don

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:27:56 -0700, dj
wrote:

i recently ordered starter from friends of carl, activated the starter and
the starter get very active. make bread using 1 cup of starter, let rise,
usually 1st rise is 3-4 hours, 2nd rise 2 hours. bake the bread. when
done bread tastes good but sourdough taste. i use unbleached flour in the
starter and bleached flour in the bread. tried with both tap and bottled
water.

0oh, where has my sour gone?

TIA
don

Hi Don,

You have not described your situation clearly...

Are you saying that you were able to get a taste that you
liked at some prior point with the same starter?

Provide some more detail, and folks are likely to help,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:27:56 -0700, dj wrote:
sorry, more details. I recieved the starter about a month ago, activated
the starter using 1/4 cup flour and a 1/4 cup water. the starter is very
active. fed the start 2 times a day for 5 days. everythig appears normal
with the starter, i just don't get any sourdough taste from this starter.

i recently ordered
starter from friends of carl, activated the starter
and the starter get very active. make bread using 1 cup of starter, let
rise, usually 1st rise is 3-4 hours, 2nd rise 2 hours. bake the bread.
when done bread tastes good but sourdough taste. i use unbleached flour
in the starter and bleached flour in the bread. tried with both tap and
bottled water.

0oh, where has my sour gone?

TIA
don

"Kenneth" wrote in message news
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:27:56 -0700, dj
wrote:

i recently ordered starter from friends of carl, activated the starter and
the starter get very active. make bread using 1 cup of starter, let rise,
usually 1st rise is 3-4 hours, 2nd rise 2 hours. bake the bread. when
done bread tastes good but sourdough taste. i use unbleached flour in the
starter and bleached flour in the bread. tried with both tap and bottled
water.

0oh, where has my sour gone?

You have not described your situation clearly...

Kenneth, in what respect(s) do you feel that he has failed to clearly
describe his situation? Could you be more specific about that?

Are you saying that you were able to get a taste that you
liked at some prior point with the same starter?

It seemed pretty clear to me, from what he wrote, that he is a first-
timer. Kenneth, did you find some evidence to the contrary?

Provide some more detail, and folks are likely to help.

We can hope! Or, more likely, folks will just confuse the crap
outta him, like they usually do.

Didn't there used to be a brochure and a web site about Carl's
starter, how to use it, and all the stuff that can be done with it?

Weren't there some FAQs posted here quite recently? Like,
for instance: http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

--
Dicky

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:25:34 -0700, dj
wrote:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:27:56 -0700, dj wrote:
sorry, more details. I recieved the starter about a month ago, activated
the starter using 1/4 cup flour and a 1/4 cup water. the starter is very
active. fed the start 2 times a day for 5 days. everythig appears normal
with the starter, i just don't get any sourdough taste from this starter.

Hi again,

Perhaps I did not describe my question clearly:

Have you used this starter (or others) before? If so, have
you baked bread that had the taste you were after?

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:52:47 -0500, Kenneth wrote:
a little history, this is thr first time i have used carls starter, years
ago i had a starter i recieved from some in new mexico. use lost the
starter when i got divorced. i wanted to start making sourdough again and
ordered carls starter. the starter activatedwhen i first started, maybe
i did something to kill the sour, but the starter is very active. i did
not use the isntructions from carls site, i use instructions save from
years ago. start with dried starter add 1/4 cup water and 1/4 flour wait
until it is active and feed it.

thanks
don

On Sat,
21 Feb 2009 20:25:34 -0700, dj wrote:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:27:56 -0700, dj wrote: sorry, more details. I
recieved the starter about a month ago, activated the starter using 1/4
cup flour and a 1/4 cup water. the starter is very active. fed the start
2 times a day for 5 days. everythig appears normal with the starter, i
just don't get any sourdough taste from this starter.

Hi again,

Perhaps I did not describe my question clearly:

Have you used this starter (or others) before? If so, have you baked
bread that had the taste you were after?

Thanks,

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:06:00 -0700, dj
wrote:

On Sat,
21 Feb 2009 20:25:34 -0700, dj wrote:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:27:56 -0700, dj wrote: sorry, more details. I
recieved the starter about a month ago, activated the starter using 1/4
cup flour and a 1/4 cup water. the starter is very active. fed the start
2 times a day for 5 days. everythig appears normal with the starter, i
just don't get any sourdough taste from this starter.

Hi again,

Perhaps I did not describe my question clearly:

Have you used this starter (or others) before? If so, have you baked
bread that had the taste you were after?

Thanks,


On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:52:47 -0500, Kenneth wrote:
a little history, this is thr first time i have used carls starter, years
ago i had a starter i recieved from some in new mexico. use lost the
starter when i got divorced. i wanted to start making sourdough again and
ordered carls starter. the starter activatedwhen i first started, maybe
i did something to kill the sour, but the starter is very active. i did
not use the isntructions from carls site, i use instructions save from
years ago. start with dried starter add 1/4 cup water and 1/4 flour wait
until it is active and feed it.

thanks
don

Hi Don,

(I put your response after my question because that it the
order in which we read...)

I have asked a very simple question of you twice, but you
have not answered it.

The first time, I asked:

"Are you saying that you were able to get a taste that you
liked at some prior point with the same starter?"

and the second time, I asked:

"Have you used this starter (or others) before? If so, have
you baked bread that had the taste you were after?"

If you care to, could you answer that question?

Have you used a sourdough starter to produce bread with the
taste you like?

Please read what I have written. I am not asking about the
starter, I am asking about the taste of the resulting bread.

Thanks yet again,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

dj wrote:
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:52:47 -0500, Kenneth wrote:
a little history, this is thr first time i have used carls starter, years
ago i had a starter i recieved from some in new mexico. use lost the
starter when i got divorced. i wanted to start making sourdough again and
ordered carls starter. the starter activatedwhen i first started, maybe
i did something to kill the sour, but the starter is very active. i did
not use the isntructions from carls site, i use instructions save from
years ago. start with dried starter add 1/4 cup water and 1/4 flour wait
until it is active and feed it.

thanks
don


Grow your starter longer at higher temperature with more whole grain flour.
Ferment your dough longer at higher temperature.

Your starter has lactic acid bacteria producing sourness. If your bread
is not sour enough, you are not giving them enough opportunity to do
their work.

If you want more specific answers, please write as much information as
you have:


- temperatures you do your growing and rising

- times how long you do every step

- amounts used

- moon phases, altitude and general mood ( for more entertainment)

Sam

"dj" wrote in message news
[ ... ]
0oh, where has my sour gone?

Rising takes longer than what you mentioned. For example,
here (linked) is my current bake:
http://mysite.verizon.net/DickyA/bread22FEB09.jpg

Times we
Start refreshing: Midnight Friday
Feed refreshment: 9 AM Saturday
Stir down refreshment: Noon Saturday
Make and reform dough: 6 PM until Midnight Saturday
Bake: 10 AM until 10:45 AM Sunday
(Details at http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ctions_Rev.doc )

That's about 16 hours rising, altogether. It is at room temperature
including 8 hours. nighttime setback (55°F) cf. OP's 6 hours.

The bread is sour enough, though Carl's is not known to
be the souringnest starter around.

i did not use the isntructions from carls site

Of course you didn't. Why would anybody want to use instructions
from that place? (Well, somebody else might.)

--
Dicky

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 00:23:22 -0500, Kenneth wrote:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:06:00 -0700, dj
wrote:

On Sat,
21 Feb 2009 20:25:34 -0700, dj wrote:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:27:56 -0700, dj wrote: sorry, more details. I
recieved the starter about a month ago, activated the starter using 1/4
cup flour and a 1/4 cup water. the starter is very active. fed the start
2 times a day for 5 days. everythig appears normal with the starter, i
just don't get any sourdough taste from this starter.

Hi again,

Perhaps I did not describe my question clearly:

Have you used this starter (or others) before? If so, have you baked
bread that had the taste you were after?

Thanks,


On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:52:47 -0500, Kenneth wrote:
a little history, this is thr first time i have used carls starter, years
ago i had a starter i recieved from some in new mexico. use lost the
starter when i got divorced. i wanted to start making sourdough again and
ordered carls starter. the starter activatedwhen i first started, maybe
i did something to kill the sour, but the starter is very active. i did
not use the isntructions from carls site, i use instructions save from
years ago. start with dried starter add 1/4 cup water and 1/4 flour wait
until it is active and feed it.

thanks
don

Hi Don,

(I put your response after my question because that it the
order in which we read...)

I have asked a very simple question of you twice, but you
have not answered it.

The first time, I asked:

"Are you saying that you were able to get a taste that you
liked at some prior point with the same starter?"

and the second time, I asked:

"Have you used this starter (or others) before? If so, have
you baked bread that had the taste you were after?"
i made bread years ago from a starter i got from new mexico, liked the
sourdough taste, this is the first time i have used carls starter and
have not been able to get any sourdough taste from the starter in the
bread i make


If you care to, could you answer that question?

Have you used a sourdough starter to produce bread with the taste you
like?

Please read what I have written. I am not asking about the starter, I am
asking about the taste of the resulting bread.

Thanks yet again,

thanks for your patience Kenneth
don

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:56:31 -0700, dj
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 00:23:22 -0500, Kenneth wrote:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:06:00 -0700, dj
wrote:

On Sat,
21 Feb 2009 20:25:34 -0700, dj wrote:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:27:56 -0700, dj wrote: sorry, more details. I
recieved the starter about a month ago, activated the starter using 1/4
cup flour and a 1/4 cup water. the starter is very active. fed the start
2 times a day for 5 days. everythig appears normal with the starter, i
just don't get any sourdough taste from this starter.

Hi again,

Perhaps I did not describe my question clearly:

Have you used this starter (or others) before? If so, have you baked
bread that had the taste you were after?

Thanks,


On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:52:47 -0500, Kenneth wrote:
a little history, this is thr first time i have used carls starter, years
ago i had a starter i recieved from some in new mexico. use lost the
starter when i got divorced. i wanted to start making sourdough again and
ordered carls starter. the starter activatedwhen i first started, maybe
i did something to kill the sour, but the starter is very active. i did
not use the isntructions from carls site, i use instructions save from
years ago. start with dried starter add 1/4 cup water and 1/4 flour wait
until it is active and feed it.

thanks
don

Hi Don,

(I put your response after my question because that it the
order in which we read...)

I have asked a very simple question of you twice, but you
have not answered it.

The first time, I asked:

"Are you saying that you were able to get a taste that you
liked at some prior point with the same starter?"

and the second time, I asked:

"Have you used this starter (or others) before? If so, have
you baked bread that had the taste you were after?"
i made bread years ago from a starter i got from new mexico, liked the
sourdough taste, this is the first time i have used carls starter and
have not been able to get any sourdough taste from the starter in the
bread i make


If you care to, could you answer that question?

Have you used a sourdough starter to produce bread with the taste you
like?

Please read what I have written. I am not asking about the starter, I am
asking about the taste of the resulting bread.

Thanks yet again,

thanks for your patience Kenneth
don

Hi Don,

Thanks for clarifying...

I asked because sometimes folks have an idea of what they
want to bake but have never actually tasted the thing that
is their goal.

So, with that out of the way, here are some thoughts:

As you may already know, sourdough breads can have that sour
taste (not all of 'em do, by the way) because the culture
produces acids as the dough rises (or ferments.)

Generally speaking, the longer the fermentation, the more
sour the bread... to a point.

There is a balancing act to all this:

That's because the bread dough is "held together" by a
rubbery protein called gluten. But the gluten will degrade,
and lose it's glue like elasticity, if the dough becomes too
acidic.

Once you have some success, there are other variables to
consider, most particularly the temperature at which the
dough matures, but those are more subtle in their effect
than the big one: T-i-m-e.

So, with all that, here's my suggestion:

You will need a thermometer (any cheap one is fine), and
some discipline in recording the times and temps for each
attempt.

Bake a loaf (and since you might have to experiment a bit,
you could make something tiny. A roll will tell you what you
need.) Record everything you did, and then repeat the
process but with a significantly longer rise. For starters
(pun intended) you might want to double your first rising
time. Don't go by volume (such as, "let dough rise until
doubled") but go strictly by the clock.

At some point the rise will be so long that the dough will
collapse rather than holding its shape. Bake it, even if you
have to "pour" it into a pan. You are likely to find it to
be lip puckering sour, but very dense (because the gluten
will have broken down, decreasing its ability to hold the
gas generated by its fermentation). That super sour test
loaf will not be what you are trying to bake, but it will
tell you important things. With it, you will know the amount
of time to the "breakdown" point.

Back off from there, and you should be able to make a loaf
as sour as you might wish.

I hope that this is of some help, and wish you the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 12:28:59 -0500, Kenneth wrote:
Thank You Kenneth, you have given me very good and useful information. i
will proceed with your recomendations.

thanks again
don
On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:56:31
-0700, dj wrote:

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 00:23:22 -0500, Kenneth wrote:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:06:00 -0700, dj wrote:

On Sat,
21 Feb 2009 20:25:34 -0700, dj wrote:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:27:56 -0700, dj wrote: sorry, more details. I
recieved the starter about a month ago, activated the starter using
1/4 cup flour and a 1/4 cup water. the starter is very active. fed
the start 2 times a day for 5 days. everythig appears normal with
the starter, i just don't get any sourdough taste from this starter.

Hi again,

Perhaps I did not describe my question clearly:

Have you used this starter (or others) before? If so, have you baked
bread that had the taste you were after?

Thanks,


On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:52:47 -0500, Kenneth wrote: a little history,
this is thr first time i have used carls starter, years ago i had a
starter i recieved from some in new mexico. use lost the starter when
i got divorced. i wanted to start making sourdough again and ordered
carls starter. the starter activatedwhen i first started, maybe i did
something to kill the sour, but the starter is very active. i did not
use the isntructions from carls site, i use instructions save from
years ago. start with dried starter add 1/4 cup water and 1/4 flour
wait until it is active and feed it.

thanks
don

Hi Don,

(I put your response after my question because that it the order in
which we read...)

I have asked a very simple question of you twice, but you have not
answered it.

The first time, I asked:

"Are you saying that you were able to get a taste that you liked at
some prior point with the same starter?"

and the second time, I asked:

"Have you used this starter (or others) before? If so, have you baked
bread that had the taste you were after?"
i made bread years ago from a starter i got from new mexico, liked the
sourdough taste, this is the first time i have used carls starter and
have not been able to get any sourdough taste from the starter in the
bread i make


If you care to, could you answer that question?

Have you used a sourdough starter to produce bread with the taste you
like?

Please read what I have written. I am not asking about the starter, I
am asking about the taste of the resulting bread.

Thanks yet again,

thanks for your patience Kenneth
don

Hi Don,

Thanks for clarifying...

I asked because sometimes folks have an idea of what they want to bake
but have never actually tasted the thing that is their goal.

So, with that out of the way, here are some thoughts:

As you may already know, sourdough breads can have that sour taste (not
all of 'em do, by the way) because the culture produces acids as the
dough rises (or ferments.)

Generally speaking, the longer the fermentation, the more sour the
bread... to a point.

There is a balancing act to all this:

That's because the bread dough is "held together" by a rubbery protein
called gluten. But the gluten will degrade, and lose it's glue like
elasticity, if the dough becomes too acidic.

Once you have some success, there are other variables to consider, most
particularly the temperature at which the dough matures, but those are
more subtle in their effect than the big one: T-i-m-e.

So, with all that, here's my suggestion:

You will need a thermometer (any cheap one is fine), and some discipline
in recording the times and temps for each attempt.

Bake a loaf (and since you might have to experiment a bit, you could
make something tiny. A roll will tell you what you need.) Record
everything you did, and then repeat the process but with a significantly
longer rise. For starters (pun intended) you might want to double your
first rising time. Don't go by volume (such as, "let dough rise until
doubled") but go strictly by the clock.

At some point the rise will be so long that the dough will collapse
rather than holding its shape. Bake it, even if you have to "pour" it
into a pan. You are likely to find it to be lip puckering sour, but very
dense (because the gluten will have broken down, decreasing its ability
to hold the gas generated by its fermentation). That super sour test
loaf will not be what you are trying to bake, but it will tell you
important things. With it, you will know the amount of time to the
"breakdown" point.

Back off from there, and you should be able to make a loaf as sour as
you might wish.

I hope that this is of some help, and wish you the best,

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

FWIW, the lactobacteria is the component of a dried starter is the
trickiest to propagate. Some feel it isn't even possible to propagate
lactobacteria this way.

One possible explanation of your lack of sour is the lactobacteria are
not up to speed yet, i.e, you have Carl's yeast but insufficient
lactobacteria. Continuous feeding, possibly with the addition of small
amount of vinegar which Carl used on occasion*, may set your starter on
the road to sour, i.e., lots of lactobacteria.

Cheers,

Darrell

*http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...2a6f1d3591cf1?
hl=en



In article , dj
wrote:

i recently ordered starter from friends of carl, activated the starter and
the starter get very active. make bread using 1 cup of starter, let rise,
usually 1st rise is 3-4 hours, 2nd rise 2 hours. bake the bread. when
done bread tastes good but sourdough taste. i use unbleached flour in the
starter and bleached flour in the bread. tried with both tap and bottled
water.

0oh, where has my sour gone?

TIA
don

--
To reply, substitute .net for .invalid in address, i.e., darrell.usenet6 (at)
*telus.net

dj wrote:
....
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:27:56 -0700, dj wrote: sorry, more
details. I recieved the starter about a month ago, activated the
starter using 1/4 cup flour and a 1/4 cup water. the starter is
very active. fed the start 2 times a day for 5 days. everythig
appears normal with the starter, i just don't get any sourdough
taste from this starter.
....
Please read what I have written. I am not asking about the starter,
I am asking about the taste of the resulting bread.
"dj', along Kenneth's line of questioning; would you be so kind as to post
the recipe you are using--being sure to include the timing and methods that
recipe entails?

I ask because your timing seems to be off.

Dusty
....

dj wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 12:28:59 -0500, Kenneth wrote:
Thank You Kenneth, you have given me very good and useful information. i
will proceed with your recomendations.


I have used Kenneth's method to learn how my starter grows and have used
Dick Adams's method also to make wickedly light loaves with a nice sour.
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ctions_Rev.doc

I used my arms instead of a machine and regular AP unbleached flour.

It is the long rise times that makes the sour.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com