I haven't posted here in years, but now I come full circle and return
to ask for assistance once again.

I just obtained a copy of the english translation by Wirtz and
MacGuire of Le Gout du Pain by Raymond Calvel. I think I've sorted
through many of the details; I have a starter raring to go, and this
coming weekend I should be ready to make my apartment smell good, but
I need some help first.

I think I may be over thinking this, but in the book, autolysis is
mentioned many times as being one of the magic discoveries to making
bread taste good, although Calvel never actually says what it is
except in the recipes, and that still leaves me wishing more
information was given.

In the recipe for Pain au Levain (Exhibit 10-1), there are 2 sponge
steps and the final dough stage includes autolysis for 30 minutes.

The footnote in this recipe for autolysis says: "Dough autolysis
refers to a rest period that occurs after 5 min of mixing a fraction
of the flour and part of the water excluding the remaining
ingredients."

I guess I am most baffled that there are no amounts (or even hydration
percentages) for autolysis given.

Could someone point me in the right direction?? What is autolysis, and
how do you do it?? What hydration level do you autolyse at? What
percentage of the final dough?? At what temperature??

By the way... I am really enjoying calvel's work. I can't wait to see
what it does to my bread.

Thanks,

-Matt

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 19:14:41 -0700 (PDT), Matt
> wrote:

>I haven't posted here in years, but now I come full circle and return
>to ask for assistance once again.
>
>I just obtained a copy of the english translation by Wirtz and
>MacGuire of Le Gout du Pain by Raymond Calvel. I think I've sorted
>through many of the details; I have a starter raring to go, and this
>coming weekend I should be ready to make my apartment smell good, but
>I need some help first.
>
>I think I may be over thinking this, but in the book, autolysis is
>mentioned many times as being one of the magic discoveries to making
>bread taste good, although Calvel never actually says what it is
>except in the recipes, and that still leaves me wishing more
>information was given.
>
>In the recipe for Pain au Levain (Exhibit 10-1), there are 2 sponge
>steps and the final dough stage includes autolysis for 30 minutes.
>
>The footnote in this recipe for autolysis says: "Dough autolysis
>refers to a rest period that occurs after 5 min of mixing a fraction
>of the flour and part of the water excluding the remaining
>ingredients."
>
>I guess I am most baffled that there are no amounts (or even hydration
>percentages) for autolysis given.
>
>Could someone point me in the right direction?? What is autolysis, and
>how do you do it?? What hydration level do you autolyse at? What
>percentage of the final dough?? At what temperature??
>
>By the way... I am really enjoying calvel's work. I can't wait to see
>what it does to my bread.
>
>Thanks,
>
>-Matt

Hi Matt,

Calvel was of the opinion that there was some great benefit
to mixing the wet and dry ingredients (less the salt if I
recall correctly) just enough to moisten, and then letting
that mass of "dough" rest before kneading.

I do not remember ever seeing anything about the specific
proportions and so have tried it with everything in the
dough (again, except the salt.)

I will add that I have not seen any great benefit, but hey,
I'm not Calvel.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 19:14:41 -0700 (PDT), Matt >
wrote:

>I haven't posted here in years, but now I come full circle and return
>to ask for assistance once again.
>
>I just obtained a copy of the english translation by Wirtz and
>MacGuire of Le Gout du Pain by Raymond Calvel. I think I've sorted
>through many of the details; I have a starter raring to go, and this
>coming weekend I should be ready to make my apartment smell good, but
>I need some help first.
>
>I think I may be over thinking this, but in the book, autolysis is
>mentioned many times as being one of the magic discoveries to making
>bread taste good, although Calvel never actually says what it is
>except in the recipes, and that still leaves me wishing more
>information was given.
>
>In the recipe for Pain au Levain (Exhibit 10-1), there are 2 sponge
>steps and the final dough stage includes autolysis for 30 minutes.
>
>The footnote in this recipe for autolysis says: "Dough autolysis
>refers to a rest period that occurs after 5 min of mixing a fraction
>of the flour and part of the water excluding the remaining
>ingredients."
>
>I guess I am most baffled that there are no amounts (or even hydration
>percentages) for autolysis given.

There is a decent, plain language definition:

http://www.heartlandmill.com/baker_pages/basics.htm

"Autolyse (or dough autolysis) A process in which the flour and water
in a formula are mixed together at low speed and allowed to sit for a
rest period, usually of 20 minutes. This pre-hydration allows for
better links between gluten and starches and results in shorter mix
times and improved dough extensibility. Loaves made with autolysed
dough will be easier to shape and will have more volume and better
crumb structure. Due to the shorter mix time (less oxidation), the
dough may retain more of the carotenoid pigment responsible for the
creamy-yellow color desired in well-crafted bread."

Some recipes will be specific in the amounts of flour and water
included in the autolyze, and hold some back. Some include all the
flour and water. The pre-ferment is added later, usually. Can it vary?
You bet. Depends on who has written the recipe,

If you are using a recipe that does not include an autolyse, you can
easily add one in by combining your flour and water up front, giving
it a bit of a mix, then letting the whole thing sit for 20-30 minutes.
There is nothing hard and fast about its use insofar as hydration
levels for a home baker. Use the proportions your recipe calls for.

You are not forbidden to add more flour or water later on, either.

Boron

On 2008-10-07, Kenneth > wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 19:14:41 -0700 (PDT), Matt
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Could someone point me in the right direction?? What is autolysis, and
>>how do you do it?? What hydration level do you autolyse at? What
>>percentage of the final dough?? At what temperature??
>
> Calvel was of the opinion that there was some great benefit
> to mixing the wet and dry ingredients (less the salt if I
> recall correctly) just enough to moisten, and then letting
> that mass of "dough" rest before kneading.
>
> I will add that I have not seen any great benefit, but hey,
> I'm not Calvel.

I follow Kenneth's direction. While I too have not seen any marked
difference in the final product, my mixer (Kenwood Chef) has been most
grateful.

Felix Karpfen


--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 19:14:41 -0700 (PDT), Matt
> wrote:
> Could someone point me in the right direction?? What is autolysis, and
> how do you do it??

Autolysis is a perfectly good word with a traditional meaning which
does not include the Calvel misappropriation.

For the baker it can be one of many words for letting the dough
sit ... in this case sitting before the yeast is added.

It is really hard to add yeast after the dough is made, so I don't
even try. "Carlos" thinks it does some good, but I dunno why.

Sourdough, properly made, sits for a very long time, so what
difference can sitting even a little while longer before leavening is
added make?

Autolysis implies the dissolution of (biological) cells, but there are not
likely to be biological cells in dough before the leavening is added.

It is really irritating how people, when they write books, get the
idea that they can just change the language around any stupid way
they want. Writers are really nothing but talkers who have figured
out how to write down what they are talking about. Books can be
pretty thoroughly bullshit in some cases. It really ****es me when I
think about it. I have a lot of respect for books. Sometimes I read
a whole book which is solid bullshit because I just cannot believe it,
and keep hoping there is something there worth knowing.

--
Dicky
(who read Dianetics, among other things)

as someone who actually has Calvel's book I can say Calvel was
promoting autolysis in very specific response to changes in French
baking practices that came in in the early 1960's in particular that
most French bakers were persuaded they needed to make bread as white
and fluffy and as fast as possible. To this end they were sold new
high two speed mixers and adding of fava bean flour both of which gave
a bread that was highly oxgenised/white and light (almost whipped
rather than kneaded) at the expense of flavour. Calvel wanted fava
bean flour out and mechanical kneading reduced to a minimum and
certainly the 20 minutes rest between initial mixing and main kneading
that he uses 'autolysis' to mean is the most significant way to reduce
actual total mechanical mixing, by hand or by machine.

In my reckoning this 20 minutes cuts total kneading by about a third.
I can't really imagine why anybody kneading by hand would want to do
this extra work but on the other hand there is no real comparison
between the damage to dough structure that a high speed continuous
mix can do (leading to complete breakdown of dough structure, over-
mixing) and any thing that can be done by hand. In my opinion the most
obvious likely effect is that gluten gets a chance to unfurl gently in
an autolysis period whereas in continuous mixing its brutally
unravelled and probably snapped in some cases. When mixing with my
Arotofex mixer I do find that if the last 3% or so of water is added
to a dough after an autolysis period an hydration can be achieved that
is higher (less likely to over mix, dough easier to handle
afterwards.more self cohesive) than if all water is added at
beginning.

I don't think it is necessarily true that Calvel's use of the word is
so inappropriate if you believe the biological sense to be the
correct one (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autolysis) since it is
certainly true that amalyse enzymes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amylase
either naturally occurring in wheat flour or included by an addition
of rye flour (in which they are much more significantly present - in
most years) or by including diastatic malt extract may start their
work of breaking down starch into sugars, and complicated sugars into
simpler sugars in this 20 minutes. I would therefore suggest that in
this respect the nature of a dough after autolysis may be quite
different and therefore performs differently when kneaded than dough
without this rest.

Interestingly another of Calvel's shibboleths was that he advocated
adding salt at beginning of mix whereas the prevalent artisanal bakers
practice of today seems to be to add at beginning of or during final
mix after autolysis.

yours
Andy Forbes