When I make bread or pizza dough, many times I basically throw some dough
together. I calculate as I'm mixing:

1-1/2 teaspoons yeast
1-1/4 cup water
3/4 tsp. salt
flour until it gets where I want it (3-4 cups, depending upon oz.
measurements in cup)


Using the above as an illustration as to my desire to not be beholden to any
particular recipe, and to logically and reasonably decide: am I using enough
or too much levain for this recipe,

Is there a standard (or ballpark figure) whereby one can calculate (of
course, not 'exactly') the amount of refreshed levain (either/both liquid
or stiff) one would/might use for 4 cups of flour with a hydration of 65%
+/-.

Thanks so much.
Dee

Dee Randall wrote:
When I make bread or pizza dough, many times I basically throw some dough
together. I calculate as I'm mixing:

1-1/2 teaspoons yeast
1-1/4 cup water
3/4 tsp. salt
flour until it gets where I want it (3-4 cups, depending upon oz.
measurements in cup)


Using the above as an illustration as to my desire to not be beholden to any
particular recipe, and to logically and reasonably decide: am I using enough
or too much levain for this recipe,

Is there a standard (or ballpark figure) whereby one can calculate (of
course, not 'exactly') the amount of refreshed levain (either/both liquid
or stiff) one would/might use for 4 cups of flour with a hydration of 65%
+/-.

Thanks so much.
Dee


I have had good luck a couple different ways.

One is to substitute 2 cups of active foamy starter for each 'dose' of
yeast. A 'dose' of yeast is commonly one packet or 2 1/4 tsp or one
scant tbsp and the dissolving liquid. I got this from the Joy of
Cooking cookbook and it seems to work quite well.

With this method, I get a 'double' in volume in 2.5-4 hours depending on
temperature. I normally use a preheated to 200 oven for my growing.

The second method I got from Dicky.
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ctions_Rev.doc

That is to use only one tsp of starter and let the sucker grow for at
'least' 8 hours. It really does give a 5X volume grow like Dicky claims!

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

"Mike Romain" wrote in message
g.com...
Dee Randall wrote:
When I make bread or pizza dough, many times I basically throw some dough
together. I calculate as I'm mixing:

1-1/2 teaspoons yeast
1-1/4 cup water
3/4 tsp. salt
flour until it gets where I want it (3-4 cups, depending upon oz.
measurements in cup)


Using the above as an illustration as to my desire to not be beholden to
any
particular recipe, and to logically and reasonably decide: am I using
enough
or too much levain for this recipe,

Is there a standard (or ballpark figure) whereby one can calculate (of
course, not 'exactly') the amount of refreshed levain (either/both
liquid
or stiff) one would/might use for 4 cups of flour with a hydration of 65%
+/-.

Thanks so much.
Dee


I have had good luck a couple different ways.

One is to substitute 2 cups of active foamy starter for each 'dose' of
yeast. A 'dose' of yeast is commonly one packet or 2 1/4 tsp or one
scant tbsp and the dissolving liquid. I got this from the Joy of
Cooking cookbook and it seems to work quite well.

With this method, I get a 'double' in volume in 2.5-4 hours depending on
temperature. I normally use a preheated to 200 oven for my growing.

The second method I got from Dicky.
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ctions_Rev.doc

That is to use only one tsp of starter and let the sucker grow for at
'least' 8 hours. It really does give a 5X volume grow like Dicky claims!

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com



Thanks, I really appreciate your reply.
Dee Dee

Dee Randall wrote:
[..]
Is there a standard (or ballpark figure) whereby one can calculate (of
course, not 'exactly') the amount of refreshed levain (either/both liquid
or stiff) one would/might use for 4 cups of flour with a hydration of 65%
+/-.


Bakers % of starter flour for white flour breads with 15 % - 20 % works.

Cup measurements and hydrations of 65 % are an oxymoron to me.

Sam

Dee,

it maybe that the English and American English are drifting so far
apart that I can't understand what you're saying exactly or I've not
woken up yet. Either way I'll have a guess and forgive me if I
misunderstood.

First of all if you're using yeast. Then forget about calculating
anything to do with a leaven (unless 'yeast' is what you mean by
'levain', sorry neither my French nor American are good today).
Whatever amount of starter you use 0.001g to 60% it isn't going to
make much difference.

I can calculate from less than a gram of my starter for kilos of dough
up to 80% starter depending how wet the dough is going to be and very
reliable too at any normal temperature but, starters vary so my
calculations won't be so accurate for you. I am of course assuming you
aren't adding any yeast because, like I said, forget the starter in
that case unless you have one of those sets of scales that drug users
use to measure your yeast.

Anyway, your question is too vague (in that you're talking in volume)
to give you any other answer that you might be looking for other than
'no' or any amount of starter at any temperature works as long as your
starter is fresh, i.e. active, using yeast or not.

Hope that makes sense in American, or English if it's me that hasn't
woken up. g

Jim

On 11 Jul, 18:59, "Dee Randall" wrote:
When I make bread or pizza dough, many times I basically throw some dough
together. *I calculate as I'm mixing:

1-1/2 teaspoons yeast
1-1/4 cup water
3/4 tsp. salt
flour until it gets where I want it (3-4 cups, depending upon oz.
measurements in cup)

Using the above as an illustration as to my desire to not be beholden to any
particular recipe, and to logically and reasonably decide: am I using enough
or too much levain for this recipe,

Is there a standard (or ballpark figure) whereby one can calculate (of
course, not 'exactly') *the amount of refreshed levain (either/both liquid
or stiff) one would/might use for 4 cups of flour with a hydration of 65%
+/-.

Thanks so much.
Dee

On Jul 17, 4:12*am, TG wrote:


Thank you so much for your time.

Mike Romain answered the question for me when he said:

" .... substitute 2 cups of active foamy starter for each 'dose' of
yeast. A 'dose' of yeast is commonly one packet or 2 1/4 tsp or one
scant tbsp and the dissolving liquid."

Best wishes from
Dee Dee
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia, USA

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:25:08 -0700 (PDT), Dee Dee
wrote:

On Jul 17, 4:12*am, TG wrote:


Thank you so much for your time.

Mike Romain answered the question for me when he said:

" .... substitute 2 cups of active foamy starter for each 'dose' of
yeast. A 'dose' of yeast is commonly one packet or 2 1/4 tsp or one
scant tbsp and the dissolving liquid."

Best wishes from
Dee Dee
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia, USA


Sorry - I am jumping into the middle of a thread and may be on the
wrong track...

When I convert any recipe from yeast to sourdough-based, I always make
a preferment.

I take about a half cup of active starter (figure out your hydration &
calculate how much flour and water to SUBTRACT from that required in
the recipe.

I then add about 1 cup of flour & 1 cup of water from the recipe and
combine that with the starter, again, being sure to subtract that from
the recipe requirements.

I let this ferment overnight, them proceed with the recipe (with
revised amounts) the next day.

If you want, you can begin your preferment with more starter, but that
is up to you. Beginning with half a cup has never failed to yield a
very active pre-ferment the next day.

Boron

Boron Elgar wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:25:08 -0700 (PDT), Dee Dee
wrote:

On Jul 17, 4:12 am, TG wrote:


Thank you so much for your time.

Mike Romain answered the question for me when he said:

" .... substitute 2 cups of active foamy starter for each 'dose' of
yeast. A 'dose' of yeast is commonly one packet or 2 1/4 tsp or one
scant tbsp and the dissolving liquid."

Best wishes from
Dee Dee
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia, USA


Sorry - I am jumping into the middle of a thread and may be on the
wrong track...

When I convert any recipe from yeast to sourdough-based, I always make
a preferment.

I take about a half cup of active starter (figure out your hydration &
calculate how much flour and water to SUBTRACT from that required in
the recipe.

I then add about 1 cup of flour & 1 cup of water from the recipe and
combine that with the starter, again, being sure to subtract that from
the recipe requirements.

I let this ferment overnight, them proceed with the recipe (with
revised amounts) the next day.

If you want, you can begin your preferment with more starter, but that
is up to you. Beginning with half a cup has never failed to yield a
very active pre-ferment the next day.

Boron

I would be thinking my feeding of the starter when it comes out of the
fridge and the overnight grow I normally do to get the 2 cups of active
foamy starter in the morning to make bread would be what you call a
preferment?

I normally do that and probably should have mentioned how I get the
starter active and foamy. I also adjust the other dry ingredients for
texture.

Mike

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:51:11 -0400, Mike Romain
wrote:

Boron Elgar wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:25:08 -0700 (PDT), Dee Dee
wrote:

On Jul 17, 4:12 am, TG wrote:


Thank you so much for your time.

Mike Romain answered the question for me when he said:

" .... substitute 2 cups of active foamy starter for each 'dose' of
yeast. A 'dose' of yeast is commonly one packet or 2 1/4 tsp or one
scant tbsp and the dissolving liquid."

Best wishes from
Dee Dee
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia, USA


Sorry - I am jumping into the middle of a thread and may be on the
wrong track...

When I convert any recipe from yeast to sourdough-based, I always make
a preferment.

I take about a half cup of active starter (figure out your hydration &
calculate how much flour and water to SUBTRACT from that required in
the recipe.

I then add about 1 cup of flour & 1 cup of water from the recipe and
combine that with the starter, again, being sure to subtract that from
the recipe requirements.

I let this ferment overnight, them proceed with the recipe (with
revised amounts) the next day.

If you want, you can begin your preferment with more starter, but that
is up to you. Beginning with half a cup has never failed to yield a
very active pre-ferment the next day.

Boron

I would be thinking my feeding of the starter when it comes out of the
fridge and the overnight grow I normally do to get the 2 cups of active
foamy starter in the morning to make bread would be what you call a
preferment?

Could be called so. I rarely only use one type of flour in my breads,
and make up my preferment with some of what will ultimately wind up in
the bread - high protein, maybe AP, or rye or semolina, etc. I like to
use a small amount of starter and grow it with the other flours.

I normally do that and probably should have mentioned how I get the
starter active and foamy. I also adjust the other dry ingredients for
texture.

Always a smart thing.

Boron

Hi Dee,

Ah, so you were asking for a sourdough recipe at 65% hydration for
about 700g of dough but given in volume. Sorry, I really didn't get
that at all. I should drink coffee before I sign on.

But Mikes, granted simple to convey, method of subbing starter for
yeast will change your recipe quite a bit. The best way to convert a
recipe is to measure out the ingredients from the recipe then use that
flour and water measured out to feed a tsp of your starter, take note
how long it takes to make a dough/bread to your taste and there's your
sourdough recipe. Like I said, how much starter you use depends solely
on your taste and what you want the crumb to be like. You could add
that tsp of starter directly to your ingredients and wait 22 hours to
baking, or you can build in stages and take the same amount of time.

Jim

On 17 Jul, 16:25, Dee Dee wrote:
On Jul 17, 4:12*am, TG wrote:

Thank you so much for your time.

Mike Romain answered the question for me when he said:

" .... substitute 2 cups of active foamy starter for each 'dose' of
yeast. *A 'dose' of yeast is commonly one packet or 2 1/4 tsp or one
scant tbsp and the dissolving liquid."

Best wishes from
Dee Dee
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia, USA