Hi All,

It's been a long time since I've been here. Learned so much from all of
you.

I was talking with friends about sourdough starters and spores. We were
discussing what happens to your starter when you move to a different
location. I thought the starter picks up the spores from the new
location and develops the taste of the locallity. My friend says that
all sourdoughs eventually end up tasting the same.

What do you folks think?

Cheers, Linda

--
remove invalid to reply

"linda" wrote in message . com...
... I thought the starter picks up the spores from the new
location and develops the taste of the locallity. My friend says that
all sourdoughs eventually end up tasting the same.
What do you folks think?

They all thought something different. But it seems they are all gone.
Such a question, in olden times, would have inspired an avalance of
debate.

I think that, if you keep one starter and maintain it responsibly, it
will probably not change. I do not think that location has much to
do with it. Your starter is mostly aware of the jar you keep it in, and,
to a lesser extent, your kitchen.

But, if you keep a bunch, and you are not skilled as a bacteriologist,
the strongest will, over sufficient time, replace the weaker ones. It
is the law of the jungle.

Boron has seven starters, and I am sure she would tell you they are
mutually distinct. Possibly it is on account of having a green thumb.

Some information is available in FAQs, but it is not definitive on this
matter. For instance, try http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughqa.html

--
Dicky

In article ,
Dick Adams wrote:

"linda" wrote in message
. com...
... I thought the starter picks up the spores from the new
location and develops the taste of the locallity. My friend says that
all sourdoughs eventually end up tasting the same.
What do you folks think?

They all thought something different. But it seems they are all gone.
Such a question, in olden times, would have inspired an avalance of
debate.

I think that, if you keep one starter and maintain it responsibly, it
will probably not change. I do not think that location has much to
do with it. Your starter is mostly aware of the jar you keep it in, and,
to a lesser extent, your kitchen.

But, if you keep a bunch, and you are not skilled as a bacteriologist,
the strongest will, over sufficient time, replace the weaker ones. It
is the law of the jungle.

Boron has seven starters, and I am sure she would tell you they are
mutually distinct. Possibly it is on account of having a green thumb.

Some information is available in FAQs, but it is not definitive on this
matter. For instance, try http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughqa.html

--
Dicky

Thanks Dicky

That seems to make sense. But I must say I liked the idea that bread
tastes different in different places because of the spores it picks up.

I'm going to look at the link later when I have time to fool around.

I was surprised to see this list was so slow. I'm glad I was here when
it was busy. You folks taught me so much. I don't think I could have
got the wonderful starter I have without the help.

thanks again, Linda





--
remove invalid to reply

Hi Linda,

I don't have any articles you can read but if sourdough lactobacilli
and yeast get into your flour by floating in the air then they won't
respect boarders. They are pretty small so if they float about in the
air then they will travel vast distances. What is to stop them from
making New York their new base of operations rather than San Jose?
Surely the kitchens of NY aren't that different to those of SJ or San
Francisco, London, you name it? Why would my culture in my Kitchen
experience such vastly different conditions that a London culture
could survive them so much better than a San Franciscan culture?

In the years that people have been moving around the US with their
different cultures wouldn't you have thought that they would all now
be the same? That also leads one to wonder where these cultures in the
US came from if they are so different to those that we have here in
the Old World. I suppose you could argue that they evolved, but why
are they so local if they can float about in the air so readily?

If cultures are so local as some folk make out then what are they
breeding on? Where is the source of these local cultures?

One quote I do have is from the FAQ "Despite the existence of several
varieties of yeast and lactobacilli they showed that the dominant
yeast was a non spore forming variety of Saccharomyces exigus called
Torulopsis holmii" Since this is a non sporing variety of yeast how do
you reconcile this with the theory of spores floating in the air? Do
lactobacilli spore?

Ed Wood still is selling his cultures from his single locality without
any complaints that I've heard of about the 'samyness' of the
cultures. My experience of them is that they are different from each
other, we're not talking chalk and cheese, more Pinot Grigio V.
Chardonnay

I don't know the answers to these questions and I really don't think
that it matters that much anyway. As you say you'd like to think that
the cultures are local and I suppose that you're not alone. So the
answer to why the idea of locality is so steadfastly held on to could
probably be more to do with what folk would like to think than the
reality of the situation. Personally speaking I'd like the culture I'm
using at the moment to turn into my original, home grown culture that
I carelessly lost but there's no signs of that happening.

Jim



That seems to make sense. But I must say I liked the idea that bread
tastes different in different places because of the spores it picks up.

I'm going to look at the link later when I have time to fool around.

I was surprised to see this list was so slow. I'm glad I was here when
it was busy. You folks taught me so much. I don't think I could have
got the wonderful starter I have without the help.

thanks again, Linda



--
remove invalid to reply

On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 23:59:33 -0400, linda
wrote:

Hi All,

It's been a long time since I've been here. Learned so much from all of
you.

I was talking with friends about sourdough starters and spores. We were
discussing what happens to your starter when you move to a different
location. I thought the starter picks up the spores from the new
location and develops the taste of the locallity. My friend says that
all sourdoughs eventually end up tasting the same.

What do you folks think?

Cheers, Linda

Hi Linda,

I don't have any scientific proof of this but my mouth says that there
are both regional and local differences in SD cultures. To me, San
Francisco SD tastes different that Alaskan SD and Carl's is different
from each of these.

When you stop to think about it, this makes sense. There is more than
one strain of yeast and more than one strain of lactobacilli. Each
strain has it's own preferences and requirements and each will produce
slightly different waste products which will give the bread a
different taste. So a culture's taste will be depend on where the
culture matured and what it is fed. My wife's culture is fed instant
potato flakes and water, mine is fed flour and water. Even though
both are kept in the same refrigerator, the dough uses the same
ingredients and they are baked in the same kitchen, they taste
entirely different and the bread has different textures.

Enjoy the differences.

Jack

Hi Jack,

My Nanny's mouth often said things I wouldn't repeat in polite company
but one of the things it frequently said was that this bad weather was
caused by 'them bloody aeroplanes'. Well, it may have been smarter
than many gave it credit for put the point is the mouth is want to say
many things that are not true.

That there are differences between a starter named San Francisco or
Alaskan is neither here nor there. I have a starter that is supposedly
San Franciscan and I have no doubt that it came from San Francisco
what is notable is that this San Franciscan is really quite different
to another starter that is also said to be from San Francisco. It is
also interesting to note that the first San Franciscan starter I have
is most like the starter that I have that is supposed to be from
France. I have made at least six starters here in London all of them
significantly different from each other. All could easily be called
London starters English starter but if I have made six starters all
quite different in my tiny flat here in this part of London how
relevant is calling any of them Waterloo, London, English or even UK
starters?

I don't think that it is hard to believe that different bacilli and
yeasts have different preferences for environment but since the
preferred environment for all my starter is flour and water at room
temperature I think that whatever is going on with the weather
outside, aeroplane induced or not, is of no consequence.

I can also add that the only time my very first starter changed was
when I dried it. I preffered it after drying so kept the reactivated
starter and chucked the original. It never changed after that. Not
surprising I hear you say since it was made hear in my kitchen but
what of the other starters that I made which all equally held true? Do
I have a middle counter starter, and end counter starter, or is it
more a March 2000 starter or May 2001? If this is the case then
perhaps we should rename our regional starters with dates.

One thing that markedly defined my different starters was the source
of the flour. One was grown in the south-east of England, in Wales,
the North west of England, from France and Italy. If region has
anything at all to do with it I think the only thing that makes any
sense to my experience is where your flour came from. But that's just
what my fingers are saying my mouth is chewing on Bologna sausage at
the moment.

Jim

On 29 Jun, 15:49, Retired VIP
wrote:
...

Hi Linda,

I don't have any scientific proof of this but my mouth says that there
are both regional and local differences in SD cultures. *To me, San
Francisco SD tastes different that Alaskan SD and Carl's is different
from each of these.

When you stop to think about it, this makes sense. *There is more than
one strain of yeast and more than one strain of lactobacilli. *Each
strain has it's own preferences and requirements and each will produce
slightly different waste products which will give the bread a
different taste. *So a culture's taste will be depend on where the
culture matured and what it is fed. *My wife's culture is fed instant
potato flakes and water, mine is fed flour and water. *Even though
both are kept in the same refrigerator, the dough uses the same
ingredients and they are baked in the same kitchen, they taste
entirely different and the bread has different textures.

Enjoy the differences.

Jack

Hi Jim,

When I said "my mouth" I meant my taste buds, my tongue, my lips, etc.
In short, everything that defines taste and texture in food.

The OP was asking if SD starters changed if moved from one area to
another or if they would all change until they all were the same. I
was attempting to answer that and giving my reasons.

Short and sweet: No, they won't change according to the area of the
country they are moved to but yes they will change if you feed them
different nutrients.

As for your different starters, did they change to resemble each other
or are they each still distinctive?

Jack

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 09:40:44 -0700 (PDT), TG
wrote:

Hi Jack,

My Nanny's mouth often said things I wouldn't repeat in polite company
but one of the things it frequently said was that this bad weather was
caused by 'them bloody aeroplanes'. Well, it may have been smarter
than many gave it credit for put the point is the mouth is want to say
many things that are not true.

That there are differences between a starter named San Francisco or
Alaskan is neither here nor there. I have a starter that is supposedly
San Franciscan and I have no doubt that it came from San Francisco
what is notable is that this San Franciscan is really quite different
to another starter that is also said to be from San Francisco. It is
also interesting to note that the first San Franciscan starter I have
is most like the starter that I have that is supposed to be from
France. I have made at least six starters here in London all of them
significantly different from each other. All could easily be called
London starters English starter but if I have made six starters all
quite different in my tiny flat here in this part of London how
relevant is calling any of them Waterloo, London, English or even UK
starters?

I don't think that it is hard to believe that different bacilli and
yeasts have different preferences for environment but since the
preferred environment for all my starter is flour and water at room
temperature I think that whatever is going on with the weather
outside, aeroplane induced or not, is of no consequence.

I can also add that the only time my very first starter changed was
when I dried it. I preffered it after drying so kept the reactivated
starter and chucked the original. It never changed after that. Not
surprising I hear you say since it was made hear in my kitchen but
what of the other starters that I made which all equally held true? Do
I have a middle counter starter, and end counter starter, or is it
more a March 2000 starter or May 2001? If this is the case then
perhaps we should rename our regional starters with dates.

One thing that markedly defined my different starters was the source
of the flour. One was grown in the south-east of England, in Wales,
the North west of England, from France and Italy. If region has
anything at all to do with it I think the only thing that makes any
sense to my experience is where your flour came from. But that's just
what my fingers are saying my mouth is chewing on Bologna sausage at
the moment.

Jim

On 29 Jun, 15:49, Retired VIP
wrote:
...

Hi Linda,

I don't have any scientific proof of this but my mouth says that there
are both regional and local differences in SD cultures. *To me, San
Francisco SD tastes different that Alaskan SD and Carl's is different
from each of these.

When you stop to think about it, this makes sense. *There is more than
one strain of yeast and more than one strain of lactobacilli. *Each
strain has it's own preferences and requirements and each will produce
slightly different waste products which will give the bread a
different taste. *So a culture's taste will be depend on where the
culture matured and what it is fed. *My wife's culture is fed instant
potato flakes and water, mine is fed flour and water. *Even though
both are kept in the same refrigerator, the dough uses the same
ingredients and they are baked in the same kitchen, they taste
entirely different and the bread has different textures.

Enjoy the differences.

Jack

About "spores" - afaik& read, most "common" organisms in SD cultures -
yeasts and LB's are _not_ "sporulating" i. e. don't develop spores. They
survive by going into some kind of dormant stage from which they can be
re-awakened less and less the longer they stay in it.

Also - the "sourdough air catching" theory has been abandoned here by
most honoring the theory that germ counts in flour outweighs the germ
count and infection possibility from air - sometimes air catching comes
here up and is immediately squashed or causes a troll thread which is
anyway ignored by most except the trolls.

SD starters, once established, are very stable - mostly, so to say...
Starter properties i. e. ratio of organisms - yeast/LB's or, if one runs
the starter differently, a not so dominant species can become more
dominant and changes properties. My thinking is that this could be best
accomplished by running the starter in a different temperature range.

Note, that a variances of a few degrees are having effect. So - who as a
hobby baker is anal enough to do this, do comparisons between different
parameters and all that?

With all that said, there is a known starter at a SD company which has
been maintained, repeatedly scientifically analyzed and found to be the
same for over 50 years.

Doing the same for Carl's is highly desired but any promises to either
fund money or ask the new "brother in law" working at a chemical lab to
do an analysis all have failed over the years.

If your "friend" says what you quote here, I would say s/he is a smart
ass. "All starters..." yeah, sure....

So, what's best to keep a starter doing the same thing?

- do the same thing with the starter, same amount of flour and water,
same temperature etc.
- grow it in moderation, double or triple the starter flour, so the
ratio of new germs (in the flour) to existing germs (in the starer)
stays low
- keep it happy, when keeping in the fridge, refresh it at least once a
month and make sure the germ count stays high. This can be accomplished
by observation.

If you Google for sourdough growth curve, you will find a graph, where
you can see that the activity will become very strong and then (after
punching it down to check if it's still active) it will become less.
That's when the germ count is highest.

With all that said - I found it simpler to just do the Detmold 3-Stage
with water tanks and be done with observing and figuring where it is and
all that. Works great for a couple of years now.

When does a starter change? Well, in the beginning, when one starts one
from flour. After that, an established starter will change, when the
treatment changes - more or less detectable as long as it's healthy.

To let it become sick, one has to miss-treat it, by letting the germ
count get too low so other organisms can take over - molds and such.

Hope this helps to some degree - and please tell your "Friend" to post
his findings on this newsgroup, so we can all learn from it.

Sam


linda wrote:
Hi All,

It's been a long time since I've been here. Learned so much from all of
you.

I was talking with friends about sourdough starters and spores. We were
discussing what happens to your starter when you move to a different
location. I thought the starter picks up the spores from the new
location and develops the taste of the locallity. My friend says that
all sourdoughs eventually end up tasting the same.

What do you folks think?

Cheers, Linda

Hi Jack and Linda,

okay sorry I misunderstood.

all my starters are stored dry on the whole, until something spurs me
on to wake them up then I use that one. The one I'm using at the
moment is the Gold Rush starter given to me by a friend. I am not a
bit impressed with it. I wanted to give it a really good shot since a
friend gave it to me but I will go back to Carl's or one of the
others. I honestly think that they have all stayed true and not become
alike. If I felt they were all the same then I'd chuck them all but
one.

I really think that this whole 'local' thing was invented and
perpetrated by the San Franciscan bakers who wanted tourists to buy
their bread and keep coming back because they 'wouldn't be able to
take it home.' We tend to repeat what we've heard as if it were fact,
then the more that say the same thing the more it must be true right?
I don't know very much at all but I have some experience that leads me
to feel more strongly in favour of starters maintained properly will
stay true. I have to say I personally have only ever heard the
drifting theory from newbies who say, "I've heard..."

If anyone isn't convinced they only need buy two different starter
from someone like Ed Wood who's maintained many different starter in
one place for many years.

Jim

On 29 Jun, 19:24, Retired VIP
wrote:
Hi Jim,
...
As for your different starters, did they change to resemble each other
or are they each still distinctive?

Jack
...

Enjoy the differences.
....

Hi Jim,

No apology needed, you can't offend me because I refuse to be
offended.

As for you storing your starters dry, have you had any trouble
reviving them? How, or where, do you store them?

My wife and I both store our starters wet, mine is about 50/50 flour
and water. Her's is mostly liquid with a little bit (about 2
Teaspoons) of potato flakes in the bottom of the jar. We usually bake
about every other week and only feed the starters the day before we
mix the dough. Mine is on the kitchen counter now.

Jack


On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 05:56:42 -0700 (PDT), TG
wrote:

Hi Jack and Linda,

okay sorry I misunderstood.

all my starters are stored dry on the whole, until something spurs me
on to wake them up then I use that one.

snip

I think a good source of information can be found in Ed wood's book
http://www.sourdo.com/book.htm also 1993-94 Giza annual Report . ed woods
went to egypt to try to reproduce the ancient strains of yeast that the
egyptions used using irradiated wheat and had a very hard time of it. I
think far more yeasts are in the wheat.


"Sam" wrote in message
news:mailman.28.1214778439.4061.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior.com...
About "spores" - afaik& read, most "common" organisms in SD cultures -
yeasts and LB's are _not_ "sporulating" i. e. don't develop spores. They
survive by going into some kind of dormant stage from which they can be
re-awakened less and less the longer they stay in it.

Also - the "sourdough air catching" theory has been abandoned here by most
honoring the theory that germ counts in flour outweighs the germ count and
infection possibility from air - sometimes air catching comes here up and
is immediately squashed or causes a troll thread which is anyway ignored
by most except the trolls.

SD starters, once established, are very stable - mostly, so to say...
Starter properties i. e. ratio of organisms - yeast/LB's or, if one runs
the starter differently, a not so dominant species can become more
dominant and changes properties. My thinking is that this could be best
accomplished by running the starter in a different temperature range.

Note, that a variances of a few degrees are having effect. So - who as a
hobby baker is anal enough to do this, do comparisons between different
parameters and all that?

With all that said, there is a known starter at a SD company which has
been maintained, repeatedly scientifically analyzed and found to be the
same for over 50 years.

Doing the same for Carl's is highly desired but any promises to either
fund money or ask the new "brother in law" working at a chemical lab to do
an analysis all have failed over the years.

If your "friend" says what you quote here, I would say s/he is a smart
ass. "All starters..." yeah, sure....

So, what's best to keep a starter doing the same thing?

- do the same thing with the starter, same amount of flour and water,
same temperature etc.
- grow it in moderation, double or triple the starter flour, so the ratio
of new germs (in the flour) to existing germs (in the starer) stays low
- keep it happy, when keeping in the fridge, refresh it at least once a
month and make sure the germ count stays high. This can be accomplished by
observation.

If you Google for sourdough growth curve, you will find a graph, where you
can see that the activity will become very strong and then (after punching
it down to check if it's still active) it will become less. That's when
the germ count is highest.

With all that said - I found it simpler to just do the Detmold 3-Stage
with water tanks and be done with observing and figuring where it is and
all that. Works great for a couple of years now.

When does a starter change? Well, in the beginning, when one starts one
from flour. After that, an established starter will change, when the
treatment changes - more or less detectable as long as it's healthy.

To let it become sick, one has to miss-treat it, by letting the germ count
get too low so other organisms can take over - molds and such.

Hope this helps to some degree - and please tell your "Friend" to post his
findings on this newsgroup, so we can all learn from it.

Sam


linda wrote:
Hi All,

It's been a long time since I've been here. Learned so much from all of
you.
I was talking with friends about sourdough starters and spores. We were
discussing what happens to your starter when you move to a different
location. I thought the starter picks up the spores from the new
location and develops the taste of the locallity. My friend says that
all sourdoughs eventually end up tasting the same.

What do you folks think?

Cheers, Linda

Thanks Jack,

I stored them in the fridge until I got a new one and now don't have
quite as much room so store them in the cupboard. I've never had any
problems reviving them. I do store one or two wet too, if you make the
starter into a dough rather than batter they last really well for at
least a year, pack it down to stop the mould once it's calmed down; I
put a bit of water on top to keep the mould from growing. I suppose
oil would work better but I've never tried it.



On 30 Jun, 23:40, Retired VIP
wrote:
Hi Jim,

No apology needed, you can't offend me because I refuse to be
offended.

As for you storing your starters dry, have you had any trouble
reviving them? *How, or where, do you store them?

My wife and I both store our starters wet, mine is about 50/50 flour
and water. *Her's is mostly liquid with a little bit (about 2
Teaspoons) of potato flakes in the bottom of the jar. *We usually bake
about every other week and only feed the starters the day before we
mix the dough. *Mine is on the kitchen counter now.

Jack
...