atty wrote:
Here are a couple photos of the last 2 loaves in the 'featured' album:http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

There another photo of this type of French stick in my misc. cooking
shots album. Photo #2.


Hi Mike,

I wouldn't say I am a purist but I think you must have missed Vince's
note about not slashing at right angles to the length of loaf and I
would have one or two other quibbles about whether your pics/loaves
can be termed baguette

maybe compare with
http://www.viamichelin.fr/viamicheli...ries-paris.htm

having said that one does have the strange dichotomy nowadays that
quite a few trendy artisanal pro bakers, in France and elsewhere, are
striving to produce loaves (including baguette) that have an obviously
handmade/homemade style, irregular width and shape etc. whilst us
amateurs strive for the opposite.

yours
atty



To get more of a store bought taste and texture, you can use the same
recipe Vince uses which calls for an addition of commercial yeast.

I also think if I had of hand kneaded the dough a bit, it would have a
smoother crust texture, but that was a 'no knead' recipe.

Most store bought 'sourdough' bread has commercial yeast in it from what
'I' have seen and read about. I have used it as called for in some
recipes and I do get results like the grocery store bakeries, but like
the pure 'one way or the other' breads better I think.

I might try Vince's diagonal cuts next time. My recipe called for cross
cuts with scissors. I am warming and refresh feeding up my 'mother'
batch for a new loaf of something, haven't decided yet.

Mike

Mike, there's a common theme to your posts where you relinquish all
responsibility to something, be it the recipe or the starter. Think
for yourself. It's bread, there's three basic ingredients. You don't
have to have it written down in front of you to try it. Most of the
tricks of the trade are never written down in a recipe anyway.

Go wild, be impulsive.

Jim

On 11 Mar, 17:37, Mike Romain wrote:
...

To get more of a store bought taste and texture, you can use the same
recipe Vince uses which calls for an addition of commercial yeast.

I also think if I had of hand kneaded the dough a bit, it would have a
smoother crust texture, but that was a 'no knead' recipe.

Most store bought 'sourdough' bread has commercial yeast in it from what
'I' have seen and read about. *I have used it as called for in some
recipes and I do get results like the grocery store bakeries, but like
the pure 'one way or the other' breads better I think.

I might try Vince's diagonal cuts next time. *My recipe called for cross
cuts with scissors. *I am warming and refresh feeding up my 'mother'
batch for a new loaf of something, haven't decided yet.

Mike- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

People have been making bread recipes for more than 5000 years and you
want me to go re-invent the wheel?

Why don't 'you' go knock yourself out and post photos. Or do you even
bake bread?

Mike

TG wrote:
Mike, there's a common theme to your posts where you relinquish all
responsibility to something, be it the recipe or the starter. Think
for yourself. It's bread, there's three basic ingredients. You don't
have to have it written down in front of you to try it. Most of the
tricks of the trade are never written down in a recipe anyway.

Go wild, be impulsive.

Jim

On 11 Mar, 17:37, Mike Romain wrote:
...
To get more of a store bought taste and texture, you can use the same
recipe Vince uses which calls for an addition of commercial yeast.

I also think if I had of hand kneaded the dough a bit, it would have a
smoother crust texture, but that was a 'no knead' recipe.

Most store bought 'sourdough' bread has commercial yeast in it from what
'I' have seen and read about. I have used it as called for in some
recipes and I do get results like the grocery store bakeries, but like
the pure 'one way or the other' breads better I think.

I might try Vince's diagonal cuts next time. My recipe called for cross
cuts with scissors. I am warming and refresh feeding up my 'mother'
batch for a new loaf of something, haven't decided yet.

Mike- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Mike, try to understand what it is I'm trying to say to you. Don't
assume I'm having a go. If you take the stand point that I'm trying to
help, even if I'm not you'll still gain.

I know people have been making bread for a long time. That is besides
the point. The point I was trying to get across to you Mike, is to
realise that a recipe for something as simple as bread is rarely a
totally integrated method with all bits being essential to the end
result. You can easily take the gist from a bread recipe and make good
bread. If you have no clue what you're doing then yes follow each and
every bread recipe to the letter, but doing that forever more won't
give you much understanding if you have the attitude that that loaf
owes everything to that exact recipe.

You want me to show off my bread? Why? Why would I go to the trouble
of uploading photos to a site just to show people here what I've
baked? I don't think anyone here gives a stuff what my bread looks
like so I'm certainly not wasting time uploading photos. If my
experience can't show through in my words then tough. I don't have
anything to prove to you Mike or anyone else. It's not a competition.
Believe it or not I'm trying to help you Mike. I don't have to listen
though just as you don't have to eat a cake offered to you at a party.

Jim



On 12 Mar, 14:38, Mike Romain wrote:
People have been making bread recipes for more than 5000 years and you
want me to go re-invent the wheel?

Why don't 'you' go knock yourself out and post photos. *Or do you even
bake bread?

Mike

TG wrote:
Mike, there's a common theme to your posts where you relinquish all
responsibility to something, be it the recipe or the starter. Think
for yourself. It's bread, there's three basic ingredients. You don't
have to have it written down in front of you to try it. Most of the
tricks of the trade are never written down in a recipe anyway.

Go wild, be impulsive.

Jim

On 11 Mar, 17:37, Mike Romain wrote:
...
To get more of a store bought taste and texture, you can use the same
recipe Vince uses which calls for an addition of commercial yeast.

I also think if I had of hand kneaded the dough a bit, it would have a
smoother crust texture, but that was a 'no knead' recipe.

Most store bought 'sourdough' bread has commercial yeast in it from what
'I' have seen and read about. *I have used it as called for in some
recipes and I do get results like the grocery store bakeries, but like
the pure 'one way or the other' breads better I think.

I might try Vince's diagonal cuts next time. *My recipe called for cross
cuts with scissors. *I am warming and refresh feeding up my 'mother'
batch for a new loaf of something, haven't decided yet.

Mike- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

TG wrote:
You can easily take the gist from a bread recipe and make good
bread.

Figure it this way, I am the guy using my SD starter in place of
commercial yeast for all kinds of recipes so am experimenting pretty
good right now.

I look for consistency in results, then I play more, but my recipes are
'made up' basically following a tried and true recipe.

The SD French stick loaves I am baking today are cut like viince did his
just to see how they turn out.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

I give up. You're one of those guys Mike that evades and side steps
everthing said to him. There's just no point getting involved. It's as
if you see every discussion as a battle to be won. I lose, you win
Mike.

Good luck

Jim

On 12 Mar, 20:58, Mike Romain wrote:
... but my recipes are
'made up' basically following a tried and true recipe.
..
Mike

Why you people always have to fight like this? geez this is a bread
forum

TG is right: recipes are stupid and if you follow them to the letter
you'll make crap, and whenever your bread looks like crap, it's your
fault, not the oven, not the flour, not the recipe.

Mike is right: there is a purpose to upload pictures: When I see
people talking about bread making as if they know so much, they are so
great and so on, and then I see their pictures it makes me laugh and I
stop giving much attention to what they write. If people see you can
make good bread, they give you a bit more respect. I reckon.

That's why whenever I make bread that looks like shit, I certainly
won't take pictures of it. I even happened to put a loaf of bread
straight from the oven to the bin because it was so horrible.

Take it easy guys. Bread is life! Bread should make everybody happy

Vince, I think 'fight' is a bit of a strong word, it's text, it's
sharing ideas. If we all agreed on everything there'd be no discussion
at all. You can't expect adults not to have a bit of banter, there's a
difference between aggression, abuse, and a bit of banter.

Yeah some people take it very personally, but some people would take
it personally if you didn't comment that their bread was lovely. Some
people have an ego the size of a planet and consequently take
everything personally, they can never be honest for fear of how they
look, they can never just say what they think for fear of it being
misinterpreted to make them look bad. You can see those people they
dodge and dive and they say they meant something else, you can't pin
them down to anything and they'd never say, 'yep, fair cop, I was
wrong.' Everyone sees the world a little differently, and even then
that changes from moment to moment. What you'd write at 10:00 isn't
what you'd write at half past. I've rewritten this twice. lol.

Don't accuse people of things like fighting, trolling, abusing, it
isn't very polite. You don't know their intention, you can't.

As for me not uploading my pictures. Again. It's my choice. I don't
have to sell myself, I have no need to. I have also nothing to hide
but I do have the same freedom to write how I see fit to this NG. I
make a big effort not to be abusive. I do make comments on peoples
thoughts and words from time to time, which some people take
personally, but as I showed above, your thoughts and words are no who
you are, if that were true you'd never change your mind. But that's a
whole different philosophical issue altogether.

Anything that I write if it's wrong with regard to bread baking, you
can be sure Sam, Dicky or even you Vince are going to put me straight.
There are also people more qualified than I am to comment on many
things so I don't. I avoid many issues, like Rye, and weird things
like Coccodrillo, whatever on this earth that is.

The fact that you only take pictures of your good bread says a great
deal Vince. Everyone can have incredible successes, take a photo and
then, what, everyone thinks you're now the bee's knee's? I make bread
for the flavour and satisfaction of eating good bread. I don't make it
to hang on a wall in a gallery. What it should look like is ********.
Atty's comments about his baguettes make that point. Who cares if your
bread meets the standard of this or that. I could move for laughing
when he said you can't make 100% sd baguettes. As long as it tastes
good to you, that's what matters unless of course you're selling to
the general ignorance, sorry, public. Ever heard The Emperor's New
Clothes?

Jim



On 13 Mar, 11:51, viince wrote:
Why you people always have to fight like this? geez this is a bread
forum

TG is right: recipes are stupid and if you follow them to the letter
you'll make crap, and whenever your bread looks like crap, it's your
fault, not the oven, not the flour, not the recipe.

Mike is right: there is a purpose to upload pictures: When I see
people talking about bread making as if they know so much, they are so
great and so on, and then I see their pictures it makes me laugh and I
stop giving much attention to what they write. If people see you can
make good bread, they give you a bit more respect. I reckon.

That's why whenever I make bread that looks like shit, I certainly
won't take pictures of it. I even happened to put a loaf of bread
straight from the oven to the bin because it was so horrible.

Take it easy guys. Bread is life! Bread should make everybody happy

Yesterday, I decided to split my activated starter and try adding a
little bit of yeast to one part trying to emulate Vince's
description. I also tried using the more parallel slashing technique
as I observed in your video, Vince. I used a 505F oven in the longer
loaves. One the round loaf I reduced the temp after 12 mins to 475F.
The bottoms got too dark on the longer longs. Open for critique. No
actual written recipe used. I did add a little wheat gluten, a little
barley malt powder, sea salt, rye starter, a little flax meal, a
little WW flour, & white bread flour (King Arthur). (1/2 teaspoon
sugar to the dissolving yeast.) 2 long loaves and one 100% sourdough
round loaf with higher hydration.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...4/IMGP1983.jpg

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...4/IMGP1989.jpg

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...4/IMGP1988.jpg

Lucy

Sorry, the photos are larger than I hoped...and they didn't include
the titles/comment.

I would have been happier with the outcome had I increased the
hydration a bit in the longer loaves.

LUcy

Those look really nice. You bake a lot hotter than I do. Something new
to try.

I also made some 'French Sticks' using 'viince's' cut method but stayed
all SD and they turned out nice. I put 3 photos in my sig line link's
album.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

Trix wrote:
Yesterday, I decided to split my activated starter and try adding a
little bit of yeast to one part trying to emulate Vince's
description.

First I think I am quite entitled to doubt whether there is such a
thing as a 100% sourdough baguette, certainly historically there isn't

check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baguette and any other google for
baguette history, though its quite possible that early baguette, at
beginning of 20thC was often made with some addition of SD either
like Vince's or as rotten dough since for a while commercial yeast
was expensive and also even then French public reacted against lack of
flavour of 100% commercial yeast bread

Of course you can make whatever bread you fancy, it you like it fine,
but don't call it 'baguette' if only common thing with this 'type' of
bread is vague shape and/or cut. Nobody is talking about following
exact recipes, there is clearly no one exact recipe for baguette, most
'artisanal' bakers in France nowadays offer at least two different
baguette (cheap and not so cheap 'baguette a la tradition' which is
defined by law in France) - sometimes many more. The point is these
will all be variations on the 'type' which is more than just shape.
The same applies to many other established 'type', caibatta, sangak
bread from Iran http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIfpsxRk_-4 (baked on
gravel) or any classic food or dish, there are things you can vary and
there are others you can't - or else you just say I made a nice bread
which I like, I might even have started from so and so type but where
I have arrived now isn't that 'type' any more.


Mike
Some bread photos:http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

on the question of baguette cut. I never saw recipe with cuts across
the length of baguette (with scissors) unless you are referring to
fancy cuts such as epi or this one like crocodile's back. Surely the
usual point of any slash on loaf is to allow the 'muscle' you have
shaped into the loaf to expand, pump up freely and in nice even
fashion. To do that you cut along or diagonally to the direction of
the fibres of the muscle (to follow the analogy), effectively you are
dissecting off the skin the same way an anatomical demo would go, not
chop the muscle into little bits across its main fibre direction.

On your pics Mike. I think a baguette crust should when fresh be
first predominantly crunchy, crispy rather than chewy as you says
yours is. Looking at your pics I see that the edge of slashes are
rounded which tells me either you are using a flour too strong for the
'type' and/or you are using too much steam. I have seen the same
effect both in my own bread and commercially when people try to make
baguette with hard spring wheat, Canadian or whatever. Personally I
found in order to avoid this I had take foil covering off my baking
tray after 12 minutes as opposed to 30 minutes with a French flour.
Also from the way slashes look like wounds to me rather than a
liberation of the internal force of loaf that maybe they are over-
proofed? Whether a good approximation of French flour can be obtained
simply by using a mixture of a hard/strong flour and plain I am not
sure, I tend to think really also nature of gluten can be different,
even I have baked with English grown French variety wheat and result
is not the same - but I guess you have to go with what you have
available ...

yours
Andy Forbes

ps
I agree with Vince that short of tasting each others loaves, pics are
good - if people are here genuinely on this list to learn more and
improve their own baking, not just squabble

For what it is worth, I prefer the taste of my 100% sourdough round
loaf. This was also baked about 3 or 4 hours after the
longer/'French' loaves. My husband seems to prefer the 'French' loaf
since it works better with his breakfast.






Lucy

Lol, What a ridiculous thing to say. We aren't talking about the
resurrection of Christ. lol. Atty you totally didn't understand what I
was saying. Are you such a slave to convention you can't make a
baguette from a naturally leavened dough because nobody has written it
down? Fair enough if you don't like it don't make it, but you can't
seriously write that you doubt the existence of a sd baguette. lol.
You'll have to come round so Thomas can put his finger in the hole.

You say 'squabble'. What do you mean? If you mean disagree then you've
just made yourself a hypocrite. Isn't having your say what a
discussion group is all about? If nobody is allowed to disagree, then
what is the point? If you mean be abusive then I totally agree.

Jim

On 14 Mar, 11:34, atty wrote:
First I think I am quite entitled to doubt whether there is such a
thing as a 100% sourdough baguette, certainly historically there isn't

.....
ps
I agree with Vince that short of tasting each others loaves, pics are
good - if people are here genuinely on this list to learn more and
improve their own baking, not just squabble

atty wrote:
some snips
First I think I am quite entitled to doubt whether there is such a
thing as a 100% sourdough baguette, certainly historically there isn't

I like to take any recipe that calls for commercial yeast and try it
with my sourdough starter instead just to see what I get. I use 2 cups
of active (at the double point) starter for one 'dose' or packet or 2.25
tsp of commercial yeast.

Of course you can make whatever bread you fancy, it you like it fine,
but don't call it 'baguette'

I won't disagree which is why I called it a 'French Stick', not a
'Baguette'.

Mike
Some bread photos:http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

on the question of baguette cut. I never saw recipe with cuts across
the length of baguette

Yup, I had that one wrong from looking at a drawing wrong way back and
repeated it.

On your pics Mike. I think a baguette crust should when fresh be
first predominantly crunchy, crispy rather than chewy as you says
yours is.

The crust is crunchy for the first bite, then goes chewy. Second day
after being covered is really nice and chewy.

Looking at your pics I see that the edge of slashes are
rounded which tells me either you are using a flour too strong for the
'type' and/or you are using too much steam.

OK, good call, I 'did' use too much steam. I forgot the recipe said to
pull the pan of boiling water 'out' after 20 minutes. Interesting info.

I also use 'Canadian' all purpose unbleached flour. Five Roses Brand. I
should try some 'bread' flour some day.

Also from the way slashes look like wounds to me rather than a
liberation of the internal force of loaf that maybe they are over-
proofed?

Very possibly over-proofed also. I had issues with the old worn out
oven not wanting to turn on both elements so the bread sat a bit long
while I farted around with hot connections. Even then it took a 'long'
time to get it up to a 425 preheat.

Whether a good approximation of French flour can be obtained
simply by using a mixture of a hard/strong flour and plain I am not
sure, I tend to think really also nature of gluten can be different,
even I have baked with English grown French variety wheat and result
is not the same - but I guess you have to go with what you have
available ...

What about those bags of flour like 'gluten' or 'gluten flour' maybe
they call it I see at the natural food store I get my dark rye flour at?
Would an addition of some of that make a difference?

ps
I agree with Vince that short of tasting each others loaves, pics are
good - if people are here genuinely on this list to learn more and
improve their own baking, not just squabble

I agree also. I have been baking for years, but am new to bread and
really new to SD. My SD starter is just one year old now.

Mike