On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:12:12 -0800 (PST), TG
wrote:

On 29 Feb, 15:04, Kenneth wrote:
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 06:20:53 -0800 (PST), TG


Howdy,

Though your "teaspoon" of starter approach will certainly
work,

Yep, and that's all that matters.

matters are not quite a simple as you suggest.

No shit.


That is because the proportion of starter to other
ingredients is a significant variable.

What are you talking about Kenneth, are you seriously going to argue
about unknowns, about hypothetical recipes? Kenneth you must rally
need to feel clever about something. My advice was general as is your
criticism. What ingredients are you talking about? What a load of
hypothetical, meaningless waste of time.
....

Also, what is your beef with Nancy Silverton?

She's a nut. Not only does she suggest making buckets of starter from
grapes, which is utterly pointless and counter productive if you want
to make a sourdough starter, okay if you're stranded in the middle of
nowhere and you need to make bread and all you have is grapes and
flour, wait, oh yeah, you don't need the grapes. Not only that, she
advocates eating it. You can't seriously tell people to get a big
bucket of rotting flour and grapes and then eat it without some advice
to the nuts daft enough to try.


Jim

Hi Jim,

Her reputation speaks for itself, but I will mention that I
had an occasion to talk with Nancy Silverton a while ago.

She was obviously smart, and very knowledgeable, but more
than that, was extraordinarily generous with her time, and
her efforts to assist me.

Beyond that, I have no idea what set you off, but your
hostility is a far greater burden to you than it is to me.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Mike Romain wrote:
Dick Adams wrote:
There is no good way to know the leavening activity of someone else's
sponge, or even your own unless you have grown quite clever about such
things.

I did actually qualify that in my first answer.

Quote: The rise times will be different than the recipe also, but
letting something 'double' is still double no matter if it takes 1 hour
or 3. End Quote.

The commercial yeast 'doses' also use the same 'time variable' word,
'double'.

Mike
As I have a very viable starter going at present, and we had some very
old, outta date by about 10 days,buttermilk, I decided to take some of
that starter and instead of using filtered water with the flour, use
some of that old buttermilk. Well, the resulting mix doubled in about 2
hours, I stirred it down and it bounced right back up again, this time
in less than an hour! Now, as Marie just did an oatmeal bread, and we do
not use more than a loaf a week, I will just have to wait until she does
another loaf to see how that tastes. But it sure did surprise me, and my
starter smells more sour, as well as the buttermilk odor. I will let
everyone know how it pans out...cheers, Doug in BC

"Doug Irv" wrote in message ...
I decided to ... instead of using filtered water ... use ....buttermilk.

That is really silly, Doug-Irv. Sourdough starters don't need dairy.
S'matter of fact, dairy makes 'em rotten.

Now, as Marie just did an oatmeal bread, and we do
not use more than a loaf a week, I will just have to wait until she does
another loaf to see how that tastes.

Well, you could feed Marie's oatmeal stuff to the birds, and get
the other urge out of your system before an unhealthy condition
develops.

But it sure did surprise me, and my starter smells more sour,
as well as the buttermilk odor.

Active starter is not sour, does not smell sour (unless maybe if
you are doing rye).

Buttermilk could be used as part of the fluid in sourdough, but
I can predict that the use of it in the starter culture will not become
popular. There is a lot of stuff in the Google r.f.s. archive about what
can and can't usefully be done with buttermilk as regards sourdough.

--
Dicky

lol, Oh Kenneth, you really do read my posts. I can assure you I have
no hostility towards you at all. If you mean to Nancy, I've already
explained that and that's as far as my feelings about her go. But if
reputation were a good measure of someones worth then I think there
would be no bad leaders. But anyway, I'm sure she's a lovely lady. I
really have no feelings about her as a person. I simply comment on her
advice as a baker. When I said, 'she's a nut' I was using American
vernacular and so joking.

It seems to me Kenneth that you like to feel someone has been 'set
off'. The amount of time you wrote to me off list bad mouthing a
certain person on the list and advising me not to reply to him speaks
volumes.

Jim

On 1 Mar, 18:45, Kenneth wrote:...

Hi Jim,

Her reputation speaks for itself, ...
Beyond that, I have no idea what set you off, but your
hostility is a far greater burden to you than it is to me.

All the best,
--
Kenneth
.

Hi Doug,

there's more to a naturally leavened bread than sour dough. Of course
fermenting milk will leaven dough, it doesn't mean that you've got a
sourdough starter, just a culture that lives on milk. And of course if
you let it ferment for 10 days past it's date it will smell sour. I
make kefir and it produces a lot of acid when you over ferment it, you
can even use it to make bread but it is nothing like that made with a
true sourdough culture.

But any how, none of that really matters if you enjoy eating the
bread, just don't pretend that it's sourdough. If you want milk buy a
cow, don't buy a bull and pretend you get milk.

Jim


On 1 Mar, 21:30, Doug Irv wrote:
....

As I have a very viable starter going at present, and we had some very
old, outta date by about 10 days,buttermilk, I... Doug

Dick Adams wrote:
"Doug Irv" wrote in message ...
I decided to ... instead of using filtered water ... use ...buttermilk.

Hey Dicky and Jim...I already had a very viable starter before I did
that. And two days later, and a couple more feedings, I still have. That
was just an experiment to see what would happen, and as I said, the
start doubled in a big hurry. That starter now has been fed three times
with unbleached white flour and filtered water, which is what I usually
do, and is still growing, bubbling away like gangbusters. When I stirred
it this morning the bubbles just became more numerous. Might add that
this starter is now a couple of months old and has been used for several
great sourdoughs, one whole wheat/rye loaf that was exceptional. Gonna
start a sponge this morning.
Cheers, old Doug in BC

On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:01:59 -0800 (PST), TG
wrote:

lol, Oh Kenneth, you really do read my posts. I can assure you I have
no hostility towards you at all. If you mean to Nancy, I've already
explained that and that's as far as my feelings about her go. But if
reputation were a good measure of someones worth then I think there
would be no bad leaders. But anyway, I'm sure she's a lovely lady. I
really have no feelings about her as a person. I simply comment on her
advice as a baker. When I said, 'she's a nut' I was using American
vernacular and so joking.

It seems to me Kenneth that you like to feel someone has been 'set
off'. The amount of time you wrote to me off list bad mouthing a
certain person on the list and advising me not to reply to him speaks
volumes.

Jim

On 1 Mar, 18:45, Kenneth wrote:...

Hi Jim,

Her reputation speaks for itself, ...
Beyond that, I have no idea what set you off, but your
hostility is a far greater burden to you than it is to me.

All the best,
--
Kenneth
.

Hi Jim,

Well, as is evident to all, my trust in you was grossly
misplaced...

One can only wonder how you would treat someone's trust were
you to be aware of your hostility,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 17:22:24 GMT, Doug Irv wrote:

Dick Adams wrote:
"Doug Irv" wrote in message ...
I decided to ... instead of using filtered water ... use ...buttermilk.

Hey Dicky and Jim...I already had a very viable starter before I did
that. And two days later, and a couple more feedings, I still have. That
was just an experiment to see what would happen, and as I said, the

great sourdoughs, one whole wheat/rye loaf that was exceptional. Gonna
start a sponge this morning.
Cheers, old Doug in BC

All that really matters, "Old Doug" is that you are enjoying the
experimenting. And this one cost nothing more than a bit of
buttermilk past its pull date. I'd call that cheap fun.

I hope you'll post the final results of this morning's sponge.

Burney, down south in WA




Burney dot Huff at Mindspring dot com

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 14:23:20 -0800, BH
wrote:


All that really matters, "Old Doug" is that you are enjoying the
experimenting. And this one cost nothing more than a bit of
buttermilk past its pull date. I'd call that cheap fun.

I hope you'll post the final results of this morning's sponge.

Burney, down south in WA


Hi Burney,

I agree completely. Far too often, it seems that folks want
to advocate some sort of baking orthodoxy.

Your comment about "cheap fun" seems exactly right to me.

I would also suggest to Doug (if you are not already in the
habit) that it is a good idea to jot down what you did.

More times than I care to describe, I have slapped something
together (because of having some extra starter, running out
of a particular ingredient, or having an unanticipated
appointment interfering with my intended baking schedule
etc.) and had thought that I could remember just what I did
should the results prove to be of interest when they came
out of the oven.

When the result is a mess, I suppose I am happy to forget my
method, but when something of value comes from such
experiments I want to be able to duplicate it. (I also
realize that such records would probably be of value in
avoiding a duplicate mess.)

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 3 Mar, 17:22, Doug Irv wrote:
Dick Adams wrote:
"Doug Irv" wrote in ...
I decided to ... instead of using filtered water ... use ...buttermilk.

Hey Dicky and Jim...I already had a very viable starter before I did
that. And two days later, and a couple more feedings, I still have. That
was just an experiment to see what would happen, and as I said, the
start doubled in a big hurry. That starter now has been fed three times
with unbleached white flour and filtered water, which is what I usually
do, and is still growing, bubbling away like gangbusters. When I stirred
it this morning the bubbles just became more numerous. Might add that
this starter is now a couple of months old and has been used for several
great sourdoughs, one whole wheat/rye loaf that was exceptional. Gonna
start a sponge this morning.
Cheers, old Doug in BC

Hi Doug,

I'm sure it does work, fermenting liquids do just that, the resulting
gas leavens the dough. An Indian lady I used to work with used
lemonade to make naan. I've used kefir quite a few times to make
bread but the starter won't hold up to big feeds, I suppose if you
keep feeding little feeds like most people seem to do for a long time
it gets taken over by flour flora. I don't know. But it isn't
sourdough until it has been taken over. I only commented because I got
the impression you were suggesting it was.

Thanks

Jim

Kenneth, what are you talking about? What trust are you talking about,
how have you had to depend on me for anything? I respond to what's
written, I have no feelings towards you because I don't know you, you
could for all I know be Dicky's alter ego. That would be funny. lol.

As for hostility, please, good grief man, don't be such a drama queen.
It's a news group not the vickers tea party. Don't take things so
bloody seriously.

Jim

On 3 Mar, 19:51, Kenneth ...
Hi Jim,

Well, as is evident to all, my trust in you was grossly
misplaced...

One can only wonder how you would treat someone's trust were
you to be aware of your hostility,
--
Kenneth

Kenneth and Burney I think you forget this is a news group where
people are free to discuss their ideas. If you aren't willing to hear
what other people think about those ideas you probably shouldn't post.
Oh wait, it wasn't your ideas we were talking about was it? No, so
stop trying to be a mother hen. I am quite sure Dicky like me is quite
happy for Doug or anyone else to have fun making mud pies in their
kitchen if that's what they want. But if they try to tell people that
it's sourdough I think it's perfectly acceptable for someone to step
in and say 'hang on a minute...'

Or would you prefer this group to descend into anarchy where all
meaning in words has been so greyed out that nothing makes sense
anymore. It would end up being a load of old dears dribbling into
their knitting.

That may be your ambition Kenneth and Burney but not mine thanks very
much. (By the way as Dicky always says, there's always Yahoo's group
Sourdough if that is what you want.)

Jim


On 3 Mar, 22:36, Kenneth wrote:
On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 14:23:20 -0800, BH
wrote:



All that really matters, "Old Doug" is that you are enjoying the
experimenting. *And this one cost nothing more than a bit of
buttermilk past its pull date. *I'd call that cheap fun.

I hope you'll post the final results of this morning's sponge.

Burney, down south in WA

Hi Burney,

I agree completely. Far too often, it seems that folks want
to advocate some sort of baking orthodoxy.

Your comment about "cheap fun" seems exactly right to me.
....

All the best,
--
Kenneth


If you email... Please remove the "SENSELESS."

Oh, are you talking about when you wrote to me off list slagging off
another member of this NG that I'd keep that to my self? Well, yes, I
did keep that to myself for years but I thought it was time to point
out your hypocrisy.

Perhaps this 'hostility' that you're talking about stems from the
frustration that I feel when I see things aren't the way that they
should be. Just the same emotion that you too are feeling when you
think that I am not reacting the way that you would like. You choose
to try to get your way by trying to make yourself look ritchous by
accusing me of being 'hostile'. I pointed out that you aren't as nice
as you make out. Right or wrong I am honest about what I think. I make
mistakes. So what? I'm human and I'm learning. I try to be a better
person from the inside out rather than white washing over the cracks.

Don't be a hypocrite Kenneth. We all have emotions. Don't pretend you
don't then get personal. I probably shouldn't have said you slagged
off somebody else in a private email but it might make you think twice
about trying to take the moral high ground in future.

Jim


On 4 Mar, 11:43, TG wrote:
Kenneth, what are you talking about? What trust are you talking about,
how have you had to depend on me for anything?...
Jim

On 3 Mar, 19:51, Kenneth ...



Hi Jim,

Well, as is evident to all, my trust in you was grossly
misplaced...

One can only wonder how you would treat someone's trust were
you to be aware of your hostility,
--
Kenneth- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Mar 4, 5:43 am, TG wrote:

I have no feelings towards you because I don't know you...

Well Jim... I suppose I could say I don't know Kenneth either. I've
never seen him, or heard him speak...but I've been reading his posts
for several years and even replied to a few. He's one of the more
knowledgeable contributors to this community. If RFS ever had a
convention, Kenneth is one of the folks I'd want to meet.

Why don't you lighten up... Kenneth's original point about inoculation
was correct and it was polite. That bears repeating... it was correct
and it was POLITE.

Will

Hello Will, you jumping in to take sides now. This is not a
personality contest, it's not Big Brother, I'm sure Kenneth is lovely,
I replied to him in that way because I thought his criticisms were
pointless and meaningless, I thought he was just trying to make out I
was wrong without being able to back it up with anything and concluded
perhaps wrongly or rightly that he was saying more about something
else than bread.

He then got a bit personal by saying " Beyond that, I have no idea
what set you off, but your hostility is a far greater burden to you
than it is to me"

I don't think that's very polite.

Anyway, perhaps it's best left as it is rather than getting one of
those pointless 'he's a nice guy, she's a nice lady' threads going,
because nobody bothers to read what's written past the first comment
resulting in no balance. The whole things becomes just a mess. Kenneth
has also been great and inspired me with one or two things and I've
said so on many occasions. On this occasion he's acting like a prig.
No one's perfect though Will.

Jim


On 4 Mar, 14:40, Will wrote:
On Mar 4, 5:43 am, TG wrote:

*I have no feelings towards you because I don't know you...

Well Jim... I suppose I could say I don't know Kenneth either. I've
never seen him, or heard him speak...but I've been reading his posts
for several years and even replied to a few. He's one of the more
knowledgeable contributors to this community. If RFS ever had a
convention, Kenneth is one of the folks I'd want to meet.

Why don't you lighten up... Kenneth's original point about inoculation
was correct and it was polite. That bears repeating... it was correct
and it was POLITE.

Will