Mike Romain wrote:

I don't know bread machines, can they even take SD with it's odd
timings?

You can mix up a dough in an ABM, sure. But that's all.

I had a request yesterday for Pizza, so grew up some SD for the
crust. Turned out nice and airy thick with a crispy crust.

How did you build your starter up and rise the dough in less than one
day? Only way I can think of doing that is adding commercial yeast to it.

Well, ok, I'm sure the Neapolitan pizzerias of a hundred years ago made
their crusts with sourdough, but they also didn't have "toppings" the
way we do, and were also in continuous production--they didn't "grow up
some SD" when someone had a whim for pizza.

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:
Mike Romain wrote:

I don't know bread machines, can they even take SD with it's odd
timings?

You can mix up a dough in an ABM, sure. But that's all.

I had a request yesterday for Pizza, so grew up some SD for the
crust. Turned out nice and airy thick with a crispy crust.

How did you build your starter up and rise the dough in less than one
day? Only way I can think of doing that is adding commercial yeast to it.

Well, ok, I'm sure the Neapolitan pizzerias of a hundred years ago made
their crusts with sourdough, but they also didn't have "toppings" the
way we do, and were also in continuous production--they didn't "grow up
some SD" when someone had a whim for pizza.

B/

If I get my starter out of the fridge early in the day, I will have a
wake up grow finished by 2:00 or 3:00. It usually takes about 4-5 hours
these days to get a double in my preheated oven. My starter seems to
have stabilized nicely.

I then add the oil and flour and water for the final grow and it came up
double by 7:00 pm sitting in the again newly pre-warmed oven. I then
stretched it out and let it rise or rest for about a half hour or so and
then added toppings.

It made for a bit of a late supper, but 8:00 PM is normal around here
for dinnertime. We have night shifters here so the pizza request came
in at 8:00 AM or so before he went to bed.

The difference in the crust between a standard bread and the SD starter
is really nice and very noticeable. That 'sour' comes through and the
crust consistency is totally different. Crispy chewy.

Mike

Dick Adams wrote:

There are people creating their sourdough legacies by making all kinds
of unlikely stuff with SD culture, and you will never catch up with them.


Not for lack of trying... ;-)


I am sure you are very versatile. But, you know, by the time you get salami,
anchovies, garlic, cheese, onions, hot pepper, and all that stuff on top, what is
underneath is largely inconsequential.


We all really do notice the difference in the crust texture and taste
with the SD starter vs the commercial yeast dough. There is a large
difference that does come through despite the toppings and other
'impurities' added.

It is well worth the extra work. Now my market doesn't alway want SD,
they like plain white bread and commercial yeast products also, but they
do get specific some days.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

I don't know bread machines, can they even take SD with it's odd timings?
Mike

Well at the risk of blasphemy here, yes they can - if you get one with
a french bread (or similar) setting that is at least four hours
long.

I add about a cup and a half of batter consistency starter to about 2
cups of flour, plus 1T sugar, 1/2t salt, and about 1/4 cup of olive
oil. Using those proportions, I usually need to add an extra dribble
of water to the ball of dough as it starts it first fast mixing cycle
to get everything to stick together. Loaf rises great- often
threatening to push up the lid of the machine....

Not the way to go if you're looking for that signature sourdough
taste, but it's healthy and a good excuse to refresh your starter in
the middle of the week.

Stacey

On Feb 8, 4:18 pm, Mike Romain wrote:
Dick Adams wrote:
"Mike Romain" wrote in shosting.com...
Anyone else have photos of their daily bread so to speak?
Yeah, me, for instance. I even tell how it is made.
http://mysite.verizon.net/DickyA/breadJan2008.jpg
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ctions_Rev.doc

Nice, Anyone else?

Mike
Some bread photos:http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

Here is a photo of my very first sourdough loaf I made last week (100%
rye starter; KA white bread flour).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattandvicki/2263062756/

Matt

wrote:
On Feb 8, 4:18 pm, Mike Romain wrote:
Dick Adams wrote:
"Mike Romain" wrote in shosting.com...
Anyone else have photos of their daily bread so to speak?
Yeah, me, for instance. I even tell how it is made.
http://mysite.verizon.net/DickyA/breadJan2008.jpg
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ctions_Rev.doc
Nice, Anyone else?

Mike
Some bread photos:http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

Here is a photo of my very first sourdough loaf I made last week (100%
rye starter; KA white bread flour).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattandvicki/2263062756/

Matt

You are off to a good start, that's for sure. That bread looks good.

Mike

I made some 'no knead' French sticks this weekend out of a batch I had
grown for English muffins. I started off Friday morning feeding my cold
starter up for a 8 hour 'wake up' grow period with a sour or long
ferment time at 72F planned, then fed it milk and AP flour for an
overnight grow at the same 72F.

All is fine and I am about to do the final grow in the morning when I
got an early morning call informing us we had a beautiful cottage up in
Northern Canada open for my wife and I this weekend for her 3 days off,
outdoor hot tub, indoor whirlpool tub, fireplace, BBQ, etc... so I
packed the crock of sponge in the trunk and away we went. The crock
stayed in 55F until Sunday when I woke it up again. It was really nice
and sour smelling so I went for a 'no knead' French Bread instead of the
muffins.

The bread recipe in The Joy of Cooking did call for long ferments and a
milk base of a half cup, just less milk than the one cup the muffin
recipe called for so I tried it anyway.

I had about 4 cups of sponge made with one cup milk at the double point,
added one cup warm water with 1 tbsp butter melted in it and 1 tbsp
sugar to that. I then made a well shape in a large bowl of 3 cups flour
and 2 tsp sugar and 2 tsp salt and poured the liquid in. I stirred it
up to a really soft dough, adding just enough flour to take the serious
sticky off as I am stirring, (just enough flour so the dough ball pulls
away from the sides as it is stirred) then let it set covered with a
damp cloth in a pre-warmed oven for 2 hours. I was ready to leave it
longer if needed to start rising, but it had just about doubled already.
It did stick to the cloth and bowl a bit, but not to bad.

At that point I punched it down and put it out on the dusted with flour
counter, cut it in half and made rectangles by stretching it and
pressing it light.

I then tried two loaf shapes, one a single scroll roll and one a double
scroll roll just to see which one shaped better. I used scissors to
snip diagonal slices in the top and brushed it with a mix of egg white
and water near the end of the baking. I let these rise for about an
hour and a bit or until the were not quite doubled in volume. It was
interesting, they both went the same height, just one loaf was fatter.
neither one 'spread'. I like the single roll shape better I think.

I warmed the oven to 400, put a pan of boiling water on the bottom shelf
and baked for 15 minutes before lowering to 350 for another 30 minutes.

My act of punching it down and pressing it into the rectangle makes the
crumb airy, but no big monster holes. I think the milk, water and
butter mix make a softer crumb than plain water. I personally prefer
bread that has the big holes punched out of it, so does my wife, so that
is what I aimed for on these loaves.

It turned out really nice! A thick, really chewy crust with a nice airy
soft crumb. Wicked as garlic bread and for steak sandwiches.

There are two photos of these loaves in my photo album site's featured
album of 'Today's Photo'. http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

What have you folks baked lately?

Mike

Mike Romain wrote:
I am really pleased with my homemade sourdough starter that is now 8
months old. It has become nicely predictable so I can end up with the
type of bread I am aiming for that day. I am learning the times vs temp
of it's moods and tastes also.

Yesterday I made a couple sour 'tasting' loaves with some dinner rolls
and while that was rising, another batch I also gave a couple long room
temp grows to for the sour to make English Muffins got fried up. Mmmm.
I think the English Muffins are one of the best uses for sourdough
starter besides a loaf, our extended family loves them so a batch is a
weekly thing.

I/we also like sourdough pizza and made a nice one the other day.

The photos of both endeavors is the featured album in my photo site.

http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

Mike

I've been baking a lot of 1.5 pound sourdough Boules, trying different
blends of bread flour and whole wheat or Rye. I think I decided on 85% bread
flour ( Harvest King) and 15% Whole Rye (Hodgson Mills), this makes a bread
that is definitely not made with plain white flour, but it is white enough
to use as an everyday bread, rather than being a whole grain type of
specialty bread. I have been making these loaves with both my own starter
and with one from Carl's friends, both work well, the 'Carl's Oregon Trail'
starter rises a little faster and makes a less sour bread with a rather pale
but tasty crust, the 'Mikey's NJ ' starter rises slower but makes a more
sour loaf, with a richer golden brown crust that I love.

My procedure is to refresh the culture the day before, then after 14 hours
make the dough. About a 4 or 5 hour bulk fermentation with 2 foldings during
it, then the boules are shaped, risen for an hour, and then retarded
overnight. The next morning I take them out of the fridge ( or garage..in
the winter I retard there), give them 3 or 4 hours to warm up and finish
proofing, then into the oven at 550 with steam, reduced to 450 after 5
minutes. 40 minutes later, they are done, internal temperature 203-205 and
the crust just starting to look almost too dark..perfect!
I need to take some pictures of these loaves, they look as good as they
taste! With all the tinkering I actually made too many and had to give a few
away to friends and neighbors, they all told me to keep baking, they don't
mind eating the extras at all :-)

I want to try using a blend of bread flour, whole wheat, and whole rye next,
and then maybe some kind of seeds, maybe sunflower. The idea of olives in
sourdough appeals to me for some reason, I want to try that as well after
reading about it in a few books.

My daughter did take 2 pictures of some really big ( for me at least) 5
pound miches that I baked for my Boy Scout troop's dinner, these were 10%
whole wheat, made with 'Mikey's NJ' starter, and a big hit at the dinner.
Not the best photography, but you can see how pretty these were
http://photo.mike721.com/gallery/baking/P1010345


--
Mikey S.
"Mike Romain" wrote in message

What have you folks baked lately?

On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 00:29:26 GMT, "Mikey S." wrote:


specialty bread. I have been making these loaves with both my own starter
and with one from Carl's friends, both work well, the 'Carl's Oregon Trail'
starter rises a little faster and makes a less sour bread with a rather pale
but tasty crust, the 'Mikey's NJ ' starter rises slower but makes a more
sour loaf, with a richer golden brown crust that I love.

Will someone help me understand why / how a starter can affect the
color and taste of the crust?

TIA

Burney




Burney dot Huff at Mindspring dot com

Hi Burney,

if you mean one good starter against another good starter, I don't
think it can. If you mean an over fermented starter in over fermented
dough as apposed to properly fermented starter in well fermented dough
then yes it can and a lot.

Over fermented dough with over fermented starter is off tasting and
has a pale crust unless you've added heaps of sugar or painted it with
washes as so many do to hide bad dough management. The crumb is
needless to say dense and grey. Then of course all the gradations in
between.

I suspect what is being seen in this case is due to different starter
working a slightly different speeds. But unless Mikey has baked dozens
of loaves all simultaneously with the different starter all treated in
exactly the same way it's pretty difficult to make the conclusions
that he does, I'm not saying he's wrong, he could be lucky but my
experience over the years says otherwise. The difference to a loaf
from the subtlest of changes in manipulation of method, timing and
ingredients, not to mention temperature which has a massive difference
for just a few degrees far out ways any differences in starter. IMHO
at least. : -)

Jim


On 6 Mar, 06:55, BH wrote:
...
Will someone help me understand why / how a starter can affect the
color and taste of the crust?

*TIA

Burney

On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 22:55:08 -0800, BH
wrote:

On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 00:29:26 GMT, "Mikey S." wrote:


specialty bread. I have been making these loaves with both my own starter
and with one from Carl's friends, both work well, the 'Carl's Oregon Trail'
starter rises a little faster and makes a less sour bread with a rather pale
but tasty crust, the 'Mikey's NJ ' starter rises slower but makes a more
sour loaf, with a richer golden brown crust that I love.

Will someone help me understand why / how a starter can affect the
color and taste of the crust?

TIA

Burney

Hi Burney,

I am not sure that I am understanding your question
correctly, but...

Do you mean why / how "different" starters can affect the
color and taste?

If that's is it, I have always thought of it in this way:

Different starters can contain different critters, or, at
least, can have 'em in different proportions.

As a result, they eat (metabolize) the various nutrients in
the dough in different ways, and perhaps at different rates.
Once that happens, the resulting dough bakes differently.

One example of this that I have mentioned here in a
different context may be useful:

I have had two starters side-by-side in my refrigerator for
something like fifteen years. When I feed them (again,
side-by-side, and in exactly the same way) one of them
(ACME) always increases in volume more rapidly than does the
other (Poilâne.)

I've understood that as an expression of the rate of
metabolism of the two.

If I am not responding to the question you intended, please
say something more.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 09:44:01 -0500, Kenneth
wrote:


Different starters can contain different critters, or, at
least, can have 'em in different proportions.

As a result, they eat (metabolize) the various nutrients in
the dough in different ways, and perhaps at different rates.
Once that happens, the resulting dough bakes differently.

One example of this that I have mentioned here in a
different context may be useful:

I have had two starters side-by-side in my refrigerator for
something like fifteen years. When I feed them (again,
side-by-side, and in exactly the same way) one of them
(ACME) always increases in volume more rapidly than does the
other (Poilâne.)

I've understood that as an expression of the rate of
metabolism of the two.

If I am not responding to the question you intended, please
say something more.

All the best,
Jim and Kenneth, thanks to both of you for your kind responses. I
think I understand both and I believe you are essentially saying the
same thing. I'll try to paraphrase to make sure I've got it.

If two good starters happened to contain the same species of critters
in the same proportions, and the starters were developed and the bread
fermented and baked with all potential variables kept constant, the
color and taste of the crust (and the bread) would be the same. BUT,
different "brands" of starters (Carl's and Acme, for example) do not
contain the same species of critters and the quanties of each species
is different. This would cause the starters to consume the nutrients
at different rates, resulting in less residual sugar, at baking time,
in the dough that had the faster acting combination of critters.
Again, if everything else were kept constant (handling, fermenting
times, temperature, etc.) this could result in the over-fermented
dough that Jim described - at least as compared to the dough with the
slower-acting starter.

Have I got it?

I, also, maintain two starters, Carl's and one I got from a friend.
I've never tried to be very scientific about it, but I have noticed
that Carl's does "grow" much faster than the other. I have had the
experience of getting a pale (ugly, actually) crust. This has
happened when I was distracted from making bread to other things. I
just always chalked the experience up to over-proofing. If I have
understand your explanations correctly, this helps me better
understand what happens in over-proofing. I think the solution to
over-proofing is still the same - pay attention to what I'm doing and
don't get distracted by other things!

Thanks, again, to both of you. And, if I've not understood correctly,
I'd appreciate being corrected.

Best regards,
Burney




Burney dot Huff at Mindspring dot com

On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:18:30 -0500, Mike Romain
wrote:

There are two photos of these loaves in my photo album site's featured
album of 'Today's Photo'. http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

I'd say that's some pretty good-looking bread, Mike.

What have you folks baked lately?

I've not been doing anything unsual lately. Just a couple of "basic
4" pan loaves and a couple of batches of mini-boules to use as bread
bowls for chowder, chili, etc. For these I just use the basic 4, too,
and use long ferments to get them sour to compliment the soup or
chili.

I am going to try some sourdough pita this afternoon or tomorrow
morning. I plan to start with a basic 4 recipe for that, too, just to
get my bearings. Then, based on the results, I may add milk or
shortening to get the texture similar to the pita loaves I have been
making using commercial yeast. Or, I may just go back to the yeast
recipe. It's so easy and quick and produces great bread. I generally
use half AP white and half stone ground WW for those and make small
batches so it can be eaten while still fresh.

Thanks for the report and the photos. I always enjoy seeing what you
are doing.

Mike





Burney dot Huff at Mindspring dot com

On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 10:26:02 -0800, BH
wrote:

Hi Burney,

Please see my comments inline below...

On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 09:44:01 -0500, Kenneth
wrote:


Different starters can contain different critters, or, at
least, can have 'em in different proportions.

As a result, they eat (metabolize) the various nutrients in
the dough in different ways, and perhaps at different rates.
Once that happens, the resulting dough bakes differently.
One example of this that I have mentioned here in a
different context may be useful:

I have had two starters side-by-side in my refrigerator for
something like fifteen years. When I feed them (again,
side-by-side, and in exactly the same way) one of them
(ACME) always increases in volume more rapidly than does the
other (Poilâne.)

I've understood that as an expression of the rate of
metabolism of the two.

If I am not responding to the question you intended, please
say something more.

All the best,
Jim and Kenneth, thanks to both of you for your kind responses. I
think I understand both and I believe you are essentially saying the
same thing. I'll try to paraphrase to make sure I've got it.

If two good starters happened to contain the same species of critters
in the same proportions, and the starters were developed and the bread
fermented and baked with all potential variables kept constant, the
color and taste of the crust (and the bread) would be the same.

I would say that the situation above would be better
described as having one starter in two different containers
g.


BUT,
different "brands" of starters (Carl's and Acme, for example) do not
contain the same species of critters and the quanties of each species
is different. This would cause the starters to consume the nutrients
at different rates, resulting in less residual sugar, at baking time,
in the dough that had the faster acting combination of critters.
Again, if everything else were kept constant (handling, fermenting
times, temperature, etc.) this could result in the over-fermented
dough that Jim described - at least as compared to the dough with the
slower-acting starter.

Have I got it?

Yup...



I, also, maintain two starters, Carl's and one I got from a friend.
I've never tried to be very scientific about it, but I have noticed
that Carl's does "grow" much faster than the other.

I was certainly not doing anything very scientific. I happen
to have had two identical, small, plastic graduates. I just
weighed out the same amount of starter, flour, and water to
each, and then could easily (and quite accurately) see the
speed of volume increase.


I have had the
experience of getting a pale (ugly, actually) crust. This has
happened when I was distracted from making bread to other things. I
just always chalked the experience up to over-proofing. If I have
understand your explanations correctly, this helps me better
understand what happens in over-proofing. I think the solution to
over-proofing is still the same - pay attention to what I'm doing and
don't get distracted by other things!

Yes, but my take on the specifics would be this:

For the crust to brown properly, it needs to have sugar in
the dough.

If the critters have eaten too much of the sugar, there will
be little left to brown. That is what causes that
"yellowish" color we sometimes see.

I hope that you are having fun with all this...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

Yes, but my take on the specifics would be this:

For the crust to brown properly, it needs to have sugar in
the dough.

If the critters have eaten too much of the sugar, there will
be little left to brown. That is what causes that
"yellowish" color we sometimes see.

I hope that you are having fun with all this...

All the best,

I think I have the same take on it.

My loaves with no sugar are pale unless over baked a lot.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com