Hey guys,

I've been baking with sourdough for a little while now, and have
pretty much
gotten the hang of working with my whole wheat starter, though I do
usually
use the same recipe every time.

Anyway, the King Arthur Whole Grain Baking book that I have been using
has a
recipe using a spelt starter, so I made one from scratch, and that
went
well; within a few of days it was bubbling up quite nicely. So I
tried
making the bread. The recipe calls for one tablespoon levian to be
mixed up
with 1 cup spelt flour and 1/2 cup unchlorinated water, and left
overnight
at room temperature. The next day, the levian is supposed to be
bubbly and
expanded.

However, the next day there was barely any activity. I decided to
leave it
be, and see what happened, and after about another 12 hours, it did
look
bubbly. Of course, then I didn't have time to bake.

What went wrong?

Could it be:
a) that too small an amount of starter was used? To me, a tablespoon
seemed
a pretty small amount...The other breads I've made have used more,
even the
ones left overnight.

b) the (possibly) too cool temperature of the room? It's winter here
in
montreal, and I have baseboard heating...

c) something else???

What should I do next time?

Should I:
a) use more starter? If so, how should I adjust the liquid/flour
content of
the recipe?
b) expect the pre-ferment to take twice as long? Will this make the
bread
really sour?
c) use a different recipe altogether? (suggestions...)

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Sarah

On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 12:41:03 -0800 (PST), Sarah
wrote:

Hey guys,

I've been baking with sourdough for a little while now, and have
pretty much
gotten the hang of working with my whole wheat starter, though I do
usually
use the same recipe every time.

Anyway, the King Arthur Whole Grain Baking book that I have been using
has a
recipe using a spelt starter, so I made one from scratch, and that
went
well; within a few of days it was bubbling up quite nicely. So I
tried
making the bread. The recipe calls for one tablespoon levian to be
mixed up
with 1 cup spelt flour and 1/2 cup unchlorinated water, and left
overnight
at room temperature. The next day, the levian is supposed to be
bubbly and
expanded.

However, the next day there was barely any activity. I decided to
leave it
be, and see what happened, and after about another 12 hours, it did
look
bubbly. Of course, then I didn't have time to bake.

What went wrong?

Could it be:
a) that too small an amount of starter was used? To me, a tablespoon
seemed
a pretty small amount...The other breads I've made have used more,
even the
ones left overnight.

b) the (possibly) too cool temperature of the room? It's winter here
in
montreal, and I have baseboard heating...

c) something else???

What should I do next time?

Should I:
a) use more starter? If so, how should I adjust the liquid/flour
content of
the recipe?
b) expect the pre-ferment to take twice as long? Will this make the
bread
really sour?
c) use a different recipe altogether? (suggestions...)

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Sarah

Hi Sarah,

My guess is that the small amount of spelt starter you had
was not really stable, and vigorous enough at the outset.

So, I would suggest that you keep a very small amount of it,
and feed that for a few days until it has some muscle. Then,
try the recipe again.

All that said, spelt is (a form of) wheat, and I do wonder
if there is any reason to have a spelt starter if you
already have a wheat starter.

I know that I bake very frequently with spelt (I have four
loaves in their final rise right now) and I use a wheat
starter when I bake with spelt.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

G'day "Kenneth", Sara and all;

"Kenneth" wrote in message
...
....
What went wrong?
Hard to say. As others have mentioned, it could be youth of the starter,
temp or other environmental conditions, or "stuff" just happens sometime
(esp. in SD baking...(:-o)!).

I'm with "Kenneth", I bake spelt often...in fact my "Provender" loaf:
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br.../provender.htm is just
about ready for the oven, and it uses spelt. Since the spelt is an addition
to my base flour (Harvest King), I always use my normal starter. I don't
know why you'd want a special spelt-only starter...unless of course maybe
you wanted to make a spelt-only loaf. Don't know how that would come
out...not too good I would think (although to be honest, I've never tried
that).


....
L8r all,
Dusty -- in Everett, Wa. for the moment...

On Jan 5, 4:26*pm, Kenneth wrote:

All that said, spelt is (a form of) wheat, and I do wonder
if there is any reason to have a spelt starter if you
already have a wheat starter.

I know that I bake very frequently with spelt (I have four
loaves in their final rise right now) and I use a wheat
starter when I bake with spelt.

Well, I just wanted to try it....but do you really think that there
would be no difference between two breads made with two different
types of starter (rye, spelt, whole wheat, etc.)? I don't know, I'm
just wondering...

Thanks for the suggestions. I think I'll try my spelt starter in a
recipe that calls for more starter...or maybe I'll just try tweaking
the original recipe. I really don't think that the problem was the
starter itself, because, as I said, it seemed active enough.

Sarah

Sarah,

if you grow starters from scratch i. e. from grain flour + water + time,
chances are high that two starters grown independently, even at the same
time may come out differently.

As documented the http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html

They may become similar over time - or not.

Grow a starter from rye out of Canada and another from FG wheat from
Montana, you introduce even more variance.

One factor is the grain you grow your starter in - FG makes different
characteristics in the same starter when compared to finer flour.
The other factor are the organisms growing - yeasts and bacteria.

Also, you wrote:
I really don't think that the problem was the
starter itself, because, as I said, it seemed active enough.
There can be high activity in the beginning - first 1 - 2,3 days or so,
but this does not necessarily indicate a viable sourdough starter.

A thing to find out with a new starter is to determine if it gets sour
to a degree that it stops fermenting. Then revive it by feeding and you
can sure that the sourdough bacteria are enjoying themselves.

A good way to find out if it's sour is to taste it. Litmus paper or pH
meter are more precise and cost $$'s.

Once you have done that, you have "exercised" your starter through all
it's phases:

http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#GC

and know it is working.

There probably will be more to say to this...

Sam

Sarah wrote:
On Jan 5, 4:26 pm, Kenneth wrote:


All that said, spelt is (a form of) wheat, and I do wonder
if there is any reason to have a spelt starter if you
already have a wheat starter.

I know that I bake very frequently with spelt (I have four
loaves in their final rise right now) and I use a wheat
starter when I bake with spelt.


Well, I just wanted to try it....but do you really think that there
would be no difference between two breads made with two different
types of starter (rye, spelt, whole wheat, etc.)? I don't know, I'm
just wondering...

Thanks for the suggestions. I think I'll try my spelt starter in a
recipe that calls for more starter...or maybe I'll just try tweaking
the original recipe. I really don't think that the problem was the
starter itself, because, as I said, it seemed active enough.

Sarah
_______________________________________________
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough

On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:59:34 -0800 (PST), Sarah
wrote:

Well, I just wanted to try it....but do you really think that there
would be no difference between two breads made with two different
types of starter (rye, spelt, whole wheat, etc.)? I don't know, I'm
just wondering...

Hi Sarah,

I agree with the comments Sam offered, but would add (and
repeat) that spelt is (a type of) wheat. So, is it likely
that a rye starter would produce different results from a
whole wheat? Well, probably. But I suspect that finding
differences between breads made using a whole wheat starter
and one made with whole spelt is less likely.

I will add that just a few days ago, I received a call that
some spelt I had ordered was in, and the sack had a bunch of
information printed on it (much related to its certification
as organic.) In addition, there was a section about the sort
of grain the bag contained, and it said "spelt wheat."

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Sarah wrote:

Well, I just wanted to try it....but do you really think that there
would be no difference between two breads made with two different
types of starter (rye, spelt, whole wheat, etc.)?

Take your starter and feed it spelt when you're in the beginning
building stages. Voila, a spelt starter.

Take the same starter and feed it rye when you want to make rye bread.
Presto-Chango, it's a rye starter.

B/

On Jan 6, 8:48*pm, Brian Mailman wrote:
Sarah wrote:
Well, I just wanted to try it....but do you really think that there
would be no difference between two breads made with two different
types of starter (rye, spelt, whole wheat, etc.)?

Take your starter and feed it spelt when you're in the beginning
building stages. *Voila, a spelt starter.

Take the same starter and feed it rye when you want to make rye bread.
Presto-Chango, it's a rye starter.

B/

Well, I know that you can change a starter to a different type by
feeding it with different flour for a couple of days, but I didn't
want to do that, as I'll be baking with my whole wheat starter soon.
Anyway, the question regarded whether different types of starter make
a difference when used to make bread.

Sarah

On Jan 6, 4:13*pm, Kenneth wrote:

I agree with the comments Sam offered, but would add (and
repeat) that spelt is (a type of) wheat. So, is it likely
that a rye starter would produce different results from a
whole wheat? Well, probably. But I suspect that finding
differences between breads made using a whole wheat starter
and one made with whole spelt is less likely.

I see what you're saying, but I just googled spelt, and general
consensus seems to be that though it is closely related to wheat, it
is in fact a different grain.

Sarah

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 01:20:32 -0800 (PST), Sarah
wrote:

I see what you're saying, but I just googled spelt, and general
consensus seems to be that though it is closely related to wheat, it
is in fact a different grain.

Sarah

Hi Sarah,

As I said three times, "spelt is a (type of) wheat."

Of course they are different. Were they not, they would
probably have the same name.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 7 Jan, 09:07, Sarah wrote:
On Jan 6, 8:48*pm, Brian Mailman wrote:

Sarah wrote:
Well, I just wanted to try it....but do you really think that there
would be no difference between two breads made with two different
types of starter (rye, spelt, whole wheat, etc.)?

Take your starter and feed it spelt when you're in the beginning
building stages. *Voila, a spelt starter.

Take the same starter and feed it rye when you want to make rye bread.
Presto-Chango, it's a rye starter.

B/

Well, I know that you can change a starter to a different type by
feeding it with different flour for a couple of days, but I didn't
want to do that, as I'll be baking with my whole wheat starter soon.
Anyway, the question regarded whether different types of starter make
a difference when used to make bread.

Sarah

Hi Sarah,

It's my experience that what you do with the starter has far more of
an effect on the bread than anything to do with how and where the
starter was made. I'm not saying that you can get different starters,
you can, I have many backed up and dried but only ever use one.

However that said. The moment I read "Anyway, ... so I made one from
scratch, and
that went well; within a few of days it was bubbling up quite nicely.
So I tried making the bread. " I knew what was coming next.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard this. I'm surprised none of
the others mentioned it. You say that all was going well, but
sometimes all can look well at the start, 'bubbling up' can be caused
by other things other than the yeasts and lactobacilli that you're
after. It has a very distinctive smell that most describe as 'sour' so
confusing 'sourdough' with the starter the conclusion tends to be that
all is going as it should but it isn't at all. One can get a starter
going from scratch in just a few days but it can often take a week or
more to get a starter that is ready to bake good bread with. If a
starter smells sour, for me at least, that means I've been neglecting
it and I should get to work feeding, I'd never use it to bake because
I've had too many disastrous loves from starters like this, it's just
a waste of flour and effort.

Well, you can do two things, keep feeding your spelt starter because
you may get a better starter than the more common wheat type starter
or you can just use your established starter to bake with. Start from
just a teaspoon and build up using spelt. As someone said spelt is
wheat, just an old variety.

Jim

Sarah wrote:
On Jan 6, 8:48 pm, Brian Mailman wrote:
Sarah wrote:
Well, I just wanted to try it....but do you really think that there
would be no difference between two breads made with two different
types of starter (rye, spelt, whole wheat, etc.)?
Take your starter and feed it spelt when you're in the beginning
building stages. Voila, a spelt starter.

Take the same starter and feed it rye when you want to make rye bread.
Presto-Chango, it's a rye starter.

B/

Well, I know that you can change a starter to a different type by
feeding it with different flour for a couple of days, but I didn't
want to do that, as I'll be baking with my whole wheat starter soon.
Anyway, the question regarded whether different types of starter make
a difference when used to make bread.

Sarah

I have made rye bread from a dedicated rye starter and made rye bread
from a tablespoon of unbleached flour starter and haven't been able to
tell the difference. Because of that, I am just keeping the flour
starter active now.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 05:19:24 -0800 (PST), TG
wrote:

I'm surprised none of
the others mentioned it. You say that all was going well, but
sometimes all can look well at the start, 'bubbling up' can be caused
by other things other than the yeasts and lactobacilli that you're
after.

Hi Jim,

Sam wrote to Sarah earlier in this thread:

"There can be high activity in the beginning - first 1 - 2,3
days or so, but this does not necessarily indicate a viable
sourdough starter."

So the info is out there, but your comments are certainly
correct (and it does seem to be a common problem: "I have a
starter that I made this morning, but...")

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Sarah wrote:
On Jan 6, 8:48 pm, Brian Mailman wrote:
Sarah wrote:
Well, I just wanted to try it....but do you really think that
there would be no difference between two breads made with two
different types of starter (rye, spelt, whole wheat, etc.)?

Take your starter and feed it spelt when you're in the beginning
building stages. Voila, a spelt starter.

Take the same starter and feed it rye when you want to make rye
bread. Presto-Chango, it's a rye starter.

Well, I know that you can change a starter to a different type by
feeding it with different flour for a couple of days,

I didn't say "for a couple of days."

but I didn't want to do that, as I'll be baking with my whole wheat
starter soon.

Perhaps dividing your starter, then, would be an option. I'm all for
simplicity, though, and keep utensil usage to a minimum.

Anyway, the question regarded whether different types of starter make
a difference when used to make bread.

As Dick points out, people have written books and made money on the
subject, if you didn't understand the answer implicit in what I wrote.

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:
Sarah wrote:


Well, I just wanted to try it....but do you really think that there
would be no difference between two breads made with two different
types of starter (rye, spelt, whole wheat, etc.)?


Take your starter and feed it spelt when you're in the beginning
building stages. Voila, a spelt starter.

Take the same starter and feed it rye when you want to make rye bread.
Presto-Chango, it's a rye starter.


That's a great concept - you should get a patent on it and then maybe
approach those guys:

http://www.sauerteig.de/site/index_e...d_liste_en.htm

and tell them how they could expand their sourdough product variety
with little effort, just using different flour and - viola!


Sam