Can anybody suggest why the top of this loaf is separating from the
crumb?
This was the first time I have made a ciabatta this big (1Kg) and the
first time I have seen this behavior.
It was bulk fermented 3 hr at ~95°F then bench proofed for 30 min
before baking at 460°F for 19 min.

http://picasaweb.google.com/DocDough...vZwOpDmk&pli=1

Doc

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:39:31 -0800 (PST), Doc
wrote:

Can anybody suggest why the top of this loaf is separating from the
crumb?
This was the first time I have made a ciabatta this big (1Kg) and the
first time I have seen this behavior.
It was bulk fermented 3 hr at ~95°F then bench proofed for 30 min
before baking at 460°F for 19 min.

http://picasaweb.google.com/DocDough...vZwOpDmk&pli=1

Doc

Hi Doc,

The link fails for me, but...

Google "flying crust" and you might get some useful info...
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Doc

Hi Doc,

The link fails for me, but...

Google "flying crust" and you might get some useful info...

Kenneth,
I think ciabatta is too fluid to slash, so I don't think that is the
same problem as described under "flying crust", but I have made the
photo public at

http://picasaweb.google.com/DocDough/Why

see if this works better for you.

Doc

It might be because you put it in the oven too early. Because it's so
big, you might need to bench proov it longer. I usually get this
problem with my ciabattas (one huge bubble in the middle) When I load
them underprooved, in a too hot oven, or not enough steam in the
oven.)

"viince" wrote in message ...

http://picasaweb.google.com/DocDough/Why

It might be because you put it in the oven too early. Because it's so
big, you might need to bench proov it longer. I usually get this
problem with my ciabattas (one huge bubble in the middle) When I load
them underprooved, in a too hot oven, or not enough steam in the
oven.

Here is another theory, partially consistent with the above:
Some portion of the doughloaf (here the top) heats slower, therefore
the web in this region remains fragile (not gelled) and ruptures to
become the last conduit for escaping gases. But these, not being
able to escape via the top crust after it gels, blow a bubble in it
instead.

--
Doc Dicky

Here is another theory, partially consistent with the above:
Some portion of the doughloaf (here the top) heats slower, therefore
the web in this region remains fragile (not gelled) and ruptures to
become the last conduit for escaping gases. *But these, not being
able to escape via the top crust after it gels, blow a bubble in it
instead.

--
Doc Dicky

Yep, I agree. So now what could be the solution to this problem?
I'd say after 5 minutes baking take a big needle and pop the loaf!

Just kidding. Maybe pierce the entire loaf with a needle before
loading. I never tried this, but that might help!

"viince" wrote in message ...

http://picasaweb.google.com/DocDough/Why

( Dicky hypothesized as follows

Some portion of the doughloaf (here the top) heats slower, therefore
the web in this region remains fragile (not gelled) and ruptures to
become the last conduit for escaping gases. But these, not being
able to escape via the top crust after it gels, blow a bubble in it
instead.

Yep, I agree. So now what could be the solution to this problem?
I'd say after 5 minutes baking take a big needle and pop the loaf!

Just kidding. Maybe pierce the entire loaf with a needle before
loading. I never tried this, but that might help!

Evenly applied heat would be the best solution. Cutting the tops before
baking is the one most frequently proposed, but I think it rather misses
the point. Anything that moderates transfer of heat from the oven to
the loaf, like a loaf pan or a baking stone, can be problematic, insofar
as some portions of the loaf may be affected more than others.

That is not to say that cutting the tops is without value -- cutting can
add visual appeal and prevent the crust from splitting. I do feel that
baking stones are useless. Cloches and well-designed ceramic oven
inserts could be good, but are a big pain in the butt to use. Best idea,
of course, is a commercial baking oven. But not everybody has one of
those. Kenneth does, but his wife does not permit him to use it, at least
as far as the steam is concerned, because of what it does to the kitchen
atmosphere. That is not to consider the absurd carbon footprint entailed
by the use of a commercial oven for occasional home baking.

For home baking, taking full rise before baking, and baking from cold
start works OK in my hands, with incidences of flying crust and crust
rupture quite rare. I have confessed that only bromated bread flour
affords the kind of rise (5X) needed for my process to be fully effective.
Bromate is known to be poisonous in California (but marijuana is just
fine). Maybe people living in the golden states where the golden grain
grows, or nearby, can get better flour than I can get in the northeast,
flour that holds together without extreme measures.

--
Dicky

viince wrote:

It might be because you put it in the oven too early. Because it's so
big, you might need to bench proov it longer. I usually get this
problem with my ciabattas (one huge bubble in the middle) When I load
them underprooved, in a too hot oven, or not enough steam in the
oven.)
Viince,

I thought you are working in a bakery, so why does not your boss help you
make better bread?

Joe Umstead

On Dec 31, 3:25 am, viince wrote:
It might be because you put it in the oven too early. Because it's so
big, you might need to bench proov it longer. I usually get this
problem with my ciabattas (one huge bubble in the middle) When I load
them underprooved, in a too hot oven, or not enough steam in the
oven.)

Vince,
I like the theory, so I will try proofing a little longer.
With smaller (500g) loaves I have been following your guidance on
bench proofing for 20 min.
I will try 40 min on the bench, but I will cut down on the bulk
ferment by 20 min to compensate.
Slow heat transfer should not be a problem in my oven, but the
expanding CO2 has a larger area to act on in a larger loaf so the
forces available to lift the top crust are larger (force probably
scales with Volume/Surface Area which grows in proportion to loaf
radius).

Another possibility along this line is that the gluten gets wimpy due
to too long of a bulk fermentation and is not strong enough to hold
together when subjected to the pressure of the rising loaf in the
oven. The counter to this would seem to be the excellent texture of
the finished crumb - light and chewy.

Thanks for the critique. I will try again tomorrow with a split batch
(one long and one short on the bench with total times being the same).
That should keep the kitchen smelling good for New Year's Day.

Doc

I thought you are working in a bakery, so why does not your boss help you
make better bread?

Joe Umstead

I don't have a boss, I help myself to make better bread by trying and
experiencing everyday.
One day you make a mistake, you learn from it and the next time you
don't do the mistake.

Thanks for the critique. *I will try again tomorrow with a split batch
(one long and one short on the bench with total times being the same).
That should keep the kitchen smelling good for New Year's Day.

Doc

Good luck, keep us informed with the results, so we can learn from
your solutions

viince wrote:


I thought you are working in a bakery, so why does not your boss help you
make better bread?

Joe Umstead

I don't have a boss, I help myself to make better bread by trying and
experiencing everyday.
One day you make a mistake, you learn from it and the next time you
don't do the mistake.
O I see you own the bakery, Good luck have a Good New Year

Joe Umstead

viince wrote:
I thought you are working in a bakery, so why does not your boss help you
make better bread?

Joe Umstead


I don't have a boss, I help myself to make better bread by trying and
experiencing everyday.

OK - in a post on June 12, 2007, you wrote:

I've been working in Exeter Street Bakery in Park Royal for 2 years.
They sell their bread to many restaurants and retail it in Kensington.
Their bread is really good, made with long fermentation (no prover).
Their Ciabatta is probably the best in london, made the way it should
be, and their foccacia is very good too!

Just for you to check it out The shop is in 1b Argyll Road
If you have been "working at" and ... "they sell their bread" - this
does not sound you are the owner.

Maybe you "have been" in a sense of past or you "have been working
since..." - language is not very clear with this.

Apparently, the bakery was opened and is owned by:

Richard Polo is one of London's most successful and stylish
restaurateurs. But you will scarcely have heard his name, so reclusive
is this US-born entrepreneur.

Born in Connecticut, to Italian immigrants from Amalfi, Polo has spent
the past 25 years in London. When we met for a coffee and a slice of
pizza bianca, in the first of his two Exeter Street Bakeries, he
confessed that he had only once before given an interview, to his
home-town newspaper in West Haven.

He came to England in 1975 to open Joe Allen, the Covent Garden
restaurant, and he followed that in 1983 with nearby Orso. In 1992 he
launched Orsino, its sibling, in west London.

Now he has a new passion: bread. He says: "Last autumn, because I love
bread, I started a bakery in Park Royal, north London, specialising in
half-a-dozen Italian breads and pizzas, which has been supplying our
restaurants and others as well as various delicatessens.
And:
BAKERY DETAILS

Exeter Street Bakery, 1b Argyll Street, W8 7DB. Tel: +44 20 7937 8484,
and from March 1 at 15 Exeter Street, WC2E 7DT, +44 20 7379 1881. Open
8am to 6.30pm Mondays to Saturdays, 9am to 6pm Sundays.

Joe Allen, 13 Exeter Street, Covent Garden. Tel: +44 20 7836 0651.

Joe Allen, 326 W46th Street, New York. Tel: +1 212-581 6464.
Sometimes 2 + 3 can be 4, I have no problem with that.
One day you make a mistake, you learn from it and the next time you
don't do the mistake.

Well, who does not, more or less or not a all?

Sam

"Sam" wrote in message news:mailman.30.1199209243.4119.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior..com...
viince wrote:
I don't have a boss, I help myself to make better bread by trying and
experiencing everyday.

OK - in a post on June 12, 2007, you wrote:
I've been working in Exeter Street Bakery in Park Royal for 2 years.

If you have been "working at" and ... "they sell their bread" - this
does not sound you are the owner.

"Apparently, the bakery was opened and is owned by:
Richard Polo ... one of London's most successful and stylish
restaurateurs. But you will scarcely have heard his name, so
reclusive is this US-born entrepreneur."

One day you make a mistake, you learn from it and the next time you
don't do the mistake.

Well, who does not, more or less or not a all?

No, Sam, not everybody is like that. But the few that are move forward rapidly
to be the leaders for the future as the jaded capitalist entrepreneurs fade into the
background. So this Richard Polo is about to become mincemeat when ol' Viince
gets his coordinates.

It is the new order of things.

--
Dicky

If you have been "working at" *and ... "they sell their bread" *- this
does not sound you are the owner.

Maybe you "have been" in a sense of past or you "have been working
since..." - language is not very clear with this.


Excuse my french, as for in June 12 2007 I was still in the process of
learning the past tenses of the english language
What I meant was: I worked in Exeter Street Bakery for 2 years.
This is the first place I ever worked and I learned a lot from there.
(I didn't know anything about baking before that)
They make very good bread (bulk fermented, well hydrated doughs), but
the owner, who I met only a few times, doesn't know shit about bread.

That is what happens with most "owners", they don't know shit about
what they own.

Same for where I work now. I don't own the place, I just bake the
bread for someone who has no idea how to make bread.
But that's a good thing for me now as I get to do what I want/like and
learn by myself, with the other people working with me. It's good to
work somewhere and learn from what they do, but it's even better to
work somewhere and be able to try stuff yourself.

It's nice to see some people are investigating my life , As if my
ego wasn't big enough, I'm gonna need to buy new shoes once again...
Here's another thing that might interest you. 7 month ago I was
working in another bakery (Sally Clarke's Bakery), and the same thing
was happening there, the owner (Sally Clarke), a very good cook, with
a really good restaurant, does not know much about baking, and
unfortunately the head baker at this time was a very useless,
untalented ""baker"" who was producing the worst bread I've seen in my
life. He finally left and today a good baker is running the place (not
me of course, a Slovakian baker)
I don't quite understand why people do this (create a business that
they are not able to run by themselves), as it might work at the
begining (when having a good headbaker), but will never last long (eg.
if you have to hire a new headbaker)
But for myself, it's again a way of learning from other people's
mistake

I'm just 23 years old and when I'll be rich enough to open my own
business, I'll be making the best bread ever (even better than the
bread I make now)




And as Dicky said, not everybody learns from their mistake. I've
worked with many people that are so stubborn they don't even realize
when what they do is wrong. Just because stuck in their mind is: What
I do is best, What I think is best, Everything else is wrong.

That's it for today!