On 3 Jan, 21:30, doughnut wrote:
As I recall, ciabatta literally means *"slipper". Never did see a
round slipper. *But each to their own.
Dimpling does not take the air out if done 15-30 minutes before baking-
just helps distribute it..
Sharon

They don't have holes for your feet either. But perhaps thats why some
American bakers slash them. g

They don't look that different to these slippers though.

http://tinyurl.com/3a79w6


Jim

On Jan 2, doughnut wrote:
Are you dimpling them before baking? It seems to
work well with high hydration dough to keep the loaf flat, and it also
helps with the flying crust problem.

On Jan 2, 3:23 pm, viince wrote:
They're round because they have only 73% hydratation. I wouldn't ever
dimple a ciabatta, that just wouldn't make any sense, you would take
the air out, and make a fake ciabatta!
If you want ciabatta to be flat like a ciabatta, put more water on
it

When I started making ciabatta a few years ago I was following Nancy
Silverton's guidance and using both yeast and a sourdough preferment,
and dimpling the dough too. I was not very happy with the results.
Along the way I made at least two ciabatta where I forgot to do the
dimple trick just before putting the loaf in the oven and got the
"flying crust" result and along with it a dense crumb below the big
hole. Looking back, I think that if I wanted a relatively flat loaf I
would do as Vince suggests and go with a 75%-78% hydration which will
flow enough that you can't make it round except in very small
(diameter) loaves.

I have seen very nice, large ciabatta, made by dimpling, and they have
good crumb texture though the cell structure is different from what I
am making at the moment. A good example of that style is produced at
Il Fornaio here in California, and by their example we have evidence
that there is a combination of hydration, dough maturity, loaf
thickness (handling), and dimple spacing that gets you there.
Personally, I like a little more crust/crumb ratio with an easier to
handle dough. The 73% hydration that I am currently using is similar
to Nancy Silverton's formulation, but the process came from Jeffrey
Hamelman's book "Bread - A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes"
which I bought on Sam's recommendation. And I would strongly recommend
this book to others for the insights it provides on a wide range of
subjects.

Doc

Doc wrote:
[..]
When I started making ciabatta a few years ago I was following Nancy
Silverton's guidance and using both yeast and a sourdough preferment,
and dimpling the dough too. I was not very happy with the results.
Along the way I made at least two ciabatta where I forgot to do the
dimple trick just before putting the loaf in the oven and got the
"flying crust" result and along with it a dense crumb below the big
hole.
Were you using a baking stone and/or steam at that time?

Sam

TG wrote:
On 3 Jan, 21:30, doughnut wrote:
As I recall, ciabatta literally means "slipper". Never did see a
round slipper....

They don't have holes for your feet either. But perhaps thats why some
American bakers slash them. g

They don't look that different to these slippers though.

http://tinyurl.com/3a79w6

grumpgrumpgrump "jack-in-the-box" grumpgrumpgrump "ciabatta bread"
grumpgrumpgrump "roll, besides ciabbatta *is* bread" grumpgrump

"Doc" wrote in message ...

[ ... ]

I have seen very nice, large ciabatta, made by dimpling, and they have
good crumb texture though the cell structure is different from what I
am making at the moment.

It seems to me that large ciabatta, made by dimpling, would come
out closer to foccacia than ciabatta. Check Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciabatta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focaccia
Of course nobody can take Wiki seriously. But you can try to
change it if you do not agree.

The 73% hydration that I am currently using is similar
to Nancy Silverton's formulation, but the process came from Jeffrey
Hamelman's book "Bread - A Baker's Book of Techniques and
Recipes" which I bought on Sam's recommendation. And I would
strongly recommend this book to others for the insights it provides
on a wide range of subjects.

Well, you cannot change Silverton and Hamelman. In that respect,
I think that Wikipedia is better.

There is something around here (Boston area) called Francense
(by Iggy): http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/iggys.htm
Is it Ciabatta or Focaccia? Or what? There is also some supermarket
bread called Italian Dipping Bread. It looks like Iggy's Francense, but
it is not sourdough. Here is another local supermarket bread:
http://mysite.verizon.net/DickyA/Ciabatta.jpg
Certainly it is quite unlike any "very nice, large ciabatta, made by dimpling".

Do I really care by what names loaves are called! Not really. Almost all
conversation is fuzzy. Today kids are telling me that you can say one
thing and some listener can take your words to mean something quite
different from what you thought you meant, and that is OK. Poetry,
for instance. Or political persuasion.

But, like I say, I do not really care.

But, "Doc Dough"???! C'mon!

--
Dicky

On Jan 4, 10:03 am, Brian Mailman wrote:
TG wrote:
On 3 Jan, 21:30, doughnut wrote:
As I recall, ciabatta literally means "slipper". Never did see a
round slipper....

They don't have holes for your feet either. But perhaps thats why some
American bakers slash them. g

They don't look that different to these slippers though.

http://tinyurl.com/3a79w6

grumpgrumpgrump "jack-in-the-box" grumpgrumpgrump "ciabatta bread"
grumpgrumpgrump "roll, besides ciabbatta *is* bread" grumpgrump

Hey!
Isn't the purpose of this group to work out the important issues???
Sharon

When I started doing good ciabatta in my job (as opposite of flatening
white dough), the french idiot who was working with me told me: But
they are ugly, they're all flat!
I told him: Look up in the dictionary what ciabatta means.

Anyway I think even though ciabatta should be rather flat, it should
be judged first by the aeration of the crumb, because to me that's
what makes a ciabatta a ciabatta, nice open crumb.

On 4 Jan, 21:23, doughnut wrote:
On Jan 4, 10:03 am, Brian Mailman wrote:

TG wrote:
On 3 Jan, 21:30, doughnut wrote:
As I recall, ciabatta literally means *"slipper". Never did see a
round slipper....

They don't have holes for your feet either. But perhaps thats why some
American bakers slash them. g

They don't look that different to these slippers though.

http://tinyurl.com/3a79w6

grumpgrumpgrump "jack-in-the-box" grumpgrumpgrump "ciabatta bread"
grumpgrumpgrump "roll, besides ciabbatta *is* bread" grumpgrump

Hey!
Isn't the purpose of this group to work out the important issues???
Sharon

Hi Sharon,

I thought it was obvious that I was joking. As for Brian, I've got no
idea what that's about. Mickey Mouse shoes - grump, how? lol. Oh well.

Jim

tony wrote:
On 4 Jan, 21:23, doughnut wrote:
On Jan 4, 10:03 am, Brian Mailman wrote:

TG wrote:
On 3 Jan, 21:30, doughnut wrote:
As I recall, ciabatta literally means "slipper". Never did
see a round slipper....

They don't have holes for your feet either. But perhaps thats
why some American bakers slash them. g

They don't look that different to these slippers though.

http://tinyurl.com/3a79w6

grumpgrumpgrump "jack-in-the-box" grumpgrumpgrump "ciabatta
bread" grumpgrumpgrump "roll, besides ciabbatta *is* bread"
grumpgrump

Hey! Isn't the purpose of this group to work out the important
issues??? Sharon

Hi Sharon,

I thought it was obvious that I was joking. As for Brian, I've got no
idea what that's about.

Well, "tg," "tony," or "jim"--you're supposed to be English, no? If
that's the case, you wouldn't get the pop culture reference.

B/

On Jan 4, 8:20 am, Sam wrote:
Doc wrote:
[..]
When I started making ciabatta a few years ago I was following Nancy
Silverton's guidance and using both yeast and a sourdough preferment,
and dimpling the dough too. I was not very happy with the results.
Along the way I made at least two ciabatta where I forgot to do the
dimple trick just before putting the loaf in the oven and got the
"flying crust" result and along with it a dense crumb below the big
hole.

Were you using a baking stone and/or steam at that time?

Sam

No stone, but yes on steam.
I was baking on a Teflon-coated perforated baking sheet in a combi
oven running at high fan speed with lots of steam - preheat to 535°F,
load, inject steam (oven cools to 430°F then recovers in about 60 sec
to 100% humidity and 450°F).

I have since then done a comparison of stone vs no stone and for my
oven find no difference in the result - except that it takes time to
heat the tiles (about 23 min to get 1/2" unglazed tiles up to 450°F
surface temp) and takes much less time to just heat the convection
oven to 535°F (about about 8 min or 1°F/sec)

I think that perhaps there is a tendency for large bubbles to collect
at the top of a loaf during bench proofing. Bubbles on the bottom of
the loaf that don't leak stay compressed by the weight of the dough.
Bubbles on the bottom that do leak are no longer bubbles, but the gas
migrates higher in the loaf. If that is true, then flabby (over-
fermented) dough would exhibit the flying crust phenomenon more
often. And this may be a reason why Nancy Silverton suggests flipping
the bench proofed loaf over AND dimpling again before putting it in
the oven. This would put the larger bubbles on the bottom (if my
speculation is right - otherwise I don't understand it).

I ran a batch of smaller ciabatta yesterday (235 - 350 gm vs 500 gm)
and they came out nicely after 8 min@470°F w/ steam. A little hotter
to get them to brown before the crumb was overcooked and a little
shorter than the 500 gm loaves (11 min) because they are smaller.

Doc

On Jan 5, 7:01 am, viince wrote:
I think even though ciabatta should be rather flat, it should
be judged first by the aeration of the crumb, because to me that's
what makes a ciabatta a ciabatta, nice open crumb.

Vince,
I agree with you. Irrespective of how in is achieved, the open crumb
is it. That is what attracted me to your ciabatta in the first place.
And when I come close to your model, I am very happy.
Doc

On 5 Jan, 18:30, Brian Mailman wrote:
Well, "tg," "tony," or "jim"--you're supposed to be English, no? If
that's the case, you wouldn't get the pop culture reference.

B/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Lol, Hi Brian,

Brian I'm sure you used the computer after someone else and forgot to
change the log in. I access this group from Google; you don't have to
be a member to post. 'TG' is my initials of my given name (on my
passport), 'Jim' is the name I gave myself and that most people know
me by, but that's not really anyone else's business.

Yes I am 'supposed' to be English, whatever that means, so no, I
didn't get the pop culture reference. I hope it made you laugh though.

Jim

TG wrote:
On 5 Jan, 18:30, Brian Mailman wrote:
Well, "tg," "tony," or "jim"--you're supposed to be English, no? If
that's the case, you wouldn't get the pop culture reference.

B/

Lol, Hi Brian,

Brian I'm sure you used the computer after someone else and forgot to
change the log in.

Uh, no. I haven't. Is that like bathing after someone else? I don't
do that, either.

I access this group from Google;...

Sometimes verbalizing a problem goes a long way to solve it.

Yes I am 'supposed' to be English, whatever that means,

It means, you're putatively English.

B/

On 7 Jan, 19:37, Brian Mailman wrote:

Lol, Hi Brian,

Brian I'm sure you used the computer after someone else and forgot to
change the log in.

Uh, no. *I haven't. *Is that like bathing after someone else? *I don't
do that, either.

I access this group from Google;...

Sometimes verbalizing a problem goes a long way to solve it.

Yes I am 'supposed' to be English, whatever that means,

* It means, you're putatively English.

B/

What a rigid world you must live in Brian.

Jim

TG wrote:
On 7 Jan, 19:37, Brian Mailman wrote:

Lol, Hi Brian,

Brian I'm sure you used the computer after someone else and
forgot to change the log in.

Uh, no. I haven't. Is that like bathing after someone else? I
don't do that, either.

I access this group from Google;...

Sometimes verbalizing a problem goes a long way to solve it.

Yes I am 'supposed' to be English, whatever that means,

It means, you're putatively English.

What a rigid world you must live in Brian.

Because I only keep to one nym/personality when I'm posting to Usenet?
I suppose so.

B/