On Jan 1, 6:38 am, viince wrote:
Good luck, keep us informed with the results, so we can learn from
your solutions

The experiment is done and the results can be seen he

http://picasaweb.google.com/DocDough...abatta?p li=1

Longer bench proof time seems to make for better ciabatta (at least up
to 40 min for this starting condition), but neither loaf showed the
big hole defect from the prior batch, so I don't think it was a good
experiment - something was not controlled. But really, from the
tightness of the crumb I think that the dough was probably not bulk
fermented long enough. Perhaps the temperature was lower today. I did
not record the dough temp at the end of bulk ferment last time so I
don't know if it was higher then, but it could have been.

With a smaller loaf (500 gm) there is less weight for the gas to lift
so it would seem possible to get a more open crumb that way, but even
these loaves at 1 Kg each nearly round out in the oven (you can see
the difference between them in the photos). Vince, did you say that
yours are about 1/2 Kg? Is that for marketing reasons or because that
is the right size to make it come out the way you want it? I remember
seeing one of your homemade ciabatta photos and it had a beautiful
uniform open cell structure.

Doc

Very good experiment Doc, it's good to see how big the difference on
the opening of the crumb. This might be the reason to the problem,
consider that the top of the loaf does really separate, it's more like
a big bubble being formed in the middle, and this will not happen
everytime, let's say it's about luck as well. Maybe if you were
conducting the same experiment with 20 loaves of each, you could see
that the 40mn bench rests has less tendency to have a huge bubble in
the middle.
Still, that's only speculation
I weigh my ciabattas 360g I think it's for marketting reasons
(everybakery I worked scaled them at this same weigh, they should
weigh around 280g after baking), but I'm not sure the reason why.
It's also much easier to handle small loaves.

I meant:

" consider that the top of the loaf does NOT really separate"

On Jan 2, 7:28 am, viince wrote:
Maybe if you were
conducting the same experiment with 20 loaves of each, you could see
that the 40mn bench rests has less tendency to have a huge bubble in
the middle. Still, that's only speculation
I weigh my ciabattas 360g I think it's for marketing reasons
(every bakery I worked scaled them at this same weigh, they should
weigh around 280g after baking), but I'm not sure the reason why.
It's also much easier to handle small loaves.

Vince,
Thanks again. I am going to think about how to better control the
maturity of the starter and the end point for the bulk fermentation. I
will run a few more trials with the 1 Kg loaf size, but as you point
out the big ones are harder to handle gently. At that size just the
weight of the dough does the stretching of the loaf without any
additional effort. Then I want to go to the other end of the spectrum
and master ciabatini as a sandwich bun.
Doc

Dear Dick Adams:

On Dec 31 2007, 12:09*pm, "Dick Adams" wrote:
...
For home baking, taking full rise before baking, and baking from
cold start works OK in my hands, with incidences of flying
crust and crust rupture quite rare. *I have confessed that only
bromated bread flour affords the kind of rise (5X) needed for
my process to be fully effective. Bromate is known to be
poisonous in California (but marijuana is just fine).

Bromate is only "poisonous" in massive quantities. Potassium bromate
has proven to be a carcinogen in a particular variety of rat (one that
also has issues with potassium carbonate). Sodium bromate has been
added to the diets of mice in large quantities (80,000 times EPA's MCL
in drinking water) and developed no cancer.

Could one bake with sodium bromate as an additive? Functionally, I
mean... not "legally". Nothing will satisfy those government types
that pass rules based on "statistical science".

David A. Smith

http://picasaweb.google.com/DocDough...fTimeOnCellStr...

Nice looking bread, but I would have to say that the loaves are pretty
round for ciabatta. Are you dimpling them before baking? It seems to
work well with high hydration dough to keep the loaf flat, and it also
helps with the flying crust problem.
Sharon

"dlzc" wrote in message ...

Could one bake with sodium bromate as an additive? Functionally, I
mean... not "legally".

Bromated flour does not seem to be a consumer item, though bread made
with bromated flour is available most places.

Bromated flour is available to bakers in places where it is not prohibited
by law.

I suppose one could add bromate oneself, but it is easier to buy already
bromated flour bakery supply. One then wrestles with the problem of how
to store 50 lb quantities of flour. Well, the sack it comes in is probably
good enough. White flour keeps pretty well.

It would be interesting for everyone to try baking with bromated flour,
compared with the normal ways. Unfortunately, one needs to buy at least
25 lbs to start, and smuggle it in if one lives in CA (ironically the physician's
shorthand name for what bromate is supposed to give you).

http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/flou...=ESpring#50111

By the time bread is baked, any amount of bromate that was legally there
is gone.

Nothing will satisfy those government types that pass rules based
on "statistical science".

Actually, it is us people that pass the rules, or allow them to be passed by not
keeping in touch with what is going on. Sometimes we send our nation to war
that way. Other times we acquiesce to such immediate problems as global
warming while our government officially palliates. (Well, of course we do
all need our SUVs to go buy our 5 lb sacks of flour at the supermarket.)

--
Dicky

"Dick Adams" wrote in message ...

"dlzc" wrote in message ...

Could one bake with sodium bromate as an additive? Functionally, I
mean... not "legally".

Ooops, now I see what you are asking. I don't see why sodium and potassium
would be any different in this respect. I think I heard some place that the sodium salt
was more hygroscopic. With chlorides, sodium and potassium are physiologically
different, but physiological concentrations are much much higher than would be
got from the residues of bromate salts in baked bread.

I don't think one needs worry about bromate in bread flour, whether sodium-
or postasium-.

Dear Dick Adams:

On Jan 2, 2:49*pm, "Dick Adams" wrote:
"dlzc" wrote in messagenews:ea137350-7e85-471f-
...
Could one bake with sodium bromate as an additive? *Functionally,
I mean... not "legally".

Ooops, now I see what you are asking. *I don't see why sodium
and potassium would be any different in this respect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NaKATPase
... very important for cell function. Dumping a lot of either sodium
or potassium is going to (briefly) alter how individual cells
function. Like for a little rodent that suddenly gorges on uncooked
flour...

*I think I heard some place that the sodium salt was more
hygroscopic. With chlorides, sodium and potassium are
physiologically different, but physiological concentrations are
much much higher than would be got from the residues of
bromate salts in baked bread.

Especially if it is cooked better than I manage to...

I don't think one needs worry about bromate in bread flour,
whether sodium- or postasium-.

Agreed.

David A. Smith

Nice looking bread, but I would have to say that the loaves are pretty
round for ciabatta. Are you dimpling them before baking? It seems to
work well with high hydration dough to keep the loaf flat, and it also
helps with the flying crust problem.
Sharon

They're round because they have only 73% hydratation. I wouldn't ever
dimple a ciabatta, that just wouldn't make any sense, you would take
the air out, and make a fake ciabatta!
If you want ciabatta to be flat like a ciabatta, put more water on
it
I saw people making "ciabatta" using normal white dough and flatening
them. Horrible. Now whenever I see someone dimpling or flatening a
ciabatta, even if it's well hydrated, it makes me shiver!!!

I don't think one needs worry about bromate in bread flour, whether sodium-
or postasium-.

Okay but what's the purpose to put bromate in flour? what does it
change?

I don't like adding stuff to flour, I like to make bread with the most
basic stuff available, which means: flour, water, salt. Idon't like
all these ascorbic acid, etc

"viince" wrote in message ...
Okay but what's the purpose to put bromate in flour? what does it
change?

It facilitates better rising. It is said to do what ascorbate does, but, believe
me, it does it exuberantly moreso. It does away with overproofedness. After
your dough has risen more than your most ebullient expectations, it rises even
more. And, after that it may rise more in the oven, and it is very unlikely
to fall.

I don't like adding stuff to flour, I like to make bread with the most
basic stuff available, which means: flour, water, salt. I don't like
all these ascorbic acid, etc.

Yes, of course, your heart is pure.

But do read the writing on the flour sack? Usually there is at least malt and
ascorbate, not to mention a menagerie of B vitamins. Crazy mold-derived
enzymes sometimes.

I must admit that not everybody seems crazy about fluffy sourdough loaves.
It is difficult to make gnarly bread with bromated flour, probably impossible.

On 1 Jan, 17:40, Sam wrote:
viince wrote:
I thought you are working in a bakery, so why does not your boss help you
make better bread?

Joe Umstead

I don't have a boss, I help myself to make better bread by trying and
experiencing everyday.

OK - in a post on June 12, 2007, you wrote:

I've been working in Exeter Street Bakery in Park Royal for 2 years.
They sell their bread to many restaurants and retail it in Kensington.
Their bread is really good, made with long fermentation (no prover).
Their Ciabatta is probably the best in london, made the way it should
be, and their foccacia is very good too!

Just for you to check it out The shop is in 1b Argyll Road

If you have been "working at" *and ... "they sell their bread" *- this
does not sound you are the owner.

Maybe you "have been" in a sense of past or you "have been working
since..." - language is not very clear with this.

Apparently, the bakery was opened and is owned by:





Richard Polo is one of London's most successful and stylish
restaurateurs. But you will scarcely have heard his name, so reclusive
is this US-born entrepreneur.

Born in Connecticut, to Italian immigrants from Amalfi, Polo has spent
the past 25 years in London. When we met for a coffee and a slice of
pizza bianca, in the first of his two Exeter Street Bakeries, he
confessed that he had only once before given an interview, to his
home-town newspaper in West Haven.

He came to England in 1975 to open Joe Allen, the Covent Garden
restaurant, and he followed that in 1983 with nearby Orso. In 1992 he
launched Orsino, its sibling, in west London.

Now he has a new passion: bread. He says: "Last autumn, because I love
bread, I started a bakery in Park Royal, north London, specialising in
half-a-dozen Italian breads and pizzas, which has been supplying our
restaurants and others as well as various delicatessens.
And:
BAKERY DETAILS

Exeter Street Bakery, 1b Argyll Street, W8 7DB. Tel: +44 20 7937 8484,
and from March 1 at 15 Exeter Street, WC2E 7DT, +44 20 7379 1881. Open
8am to 6.30pm Mondays to Saturdays, 9am to 6pm Sundays.

Joe Allen, 13 Exeter Street, Covent Garden. Tel: +44 20 7836 0651.

Joe Allen, 326 W46th Street, New York. Tel: +1 212-581 6464.

Sometimes 2 + 3 can be 4, I have no problem with that. One day you make a mistake, you learn from it and the next time you
don't do the mistake.

Well, who does not, more or less or not a all?

Sam- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sam as always you fail to understand what was written. But
understanding would stop you practicing being such an arse wouldn't
it?

Jim

On 2 Jan, 23:23, viince wrote:
Nice looking bread, but I would have to say that the loaves are pretty
round for ciabatta. Are you dimpling them before baking? It seems to
work well with high hydration dough to keep the loaf flat, and it also
helps with the flying crust problem.
Sharon

They're round because they have only 73% hydratation. I wouldn't ever
dimple a ciabatta, that just wouldn't make any sense, you would take
the air out, and make a fake ciabatta!
If you want ciabatta to be flat like a ciabatta, put more water on
it
I saw people making "ciabatta" using normal white dough and flatening
them. Horrible. Now whenever I see someone dimpling or flatening a
ciabatta, even if it's well hydrated, it makes me shiver!!!

Yeah there's a knob called Floyd that advocates dimpling ciabatta. But
then he, like most hypocrites, doesn't know much about much.

Jim

They're round because they have only 73% hydratation. I wouldn't ever
dimple a ciabatta, that just wouldn't make any sense, you would take
the air out, and make a fake ciabatta!
If you want ciabatta to be flat like a ciabatta, put more water on
it
I saw people making "ciabatta" using normal white dough and flatening
them. Horrible. Now whenever I see someone dimpling or flatening a
ciabatta, even if it's well hydrated, it makes me shiver!!!

Hmm. As I recall, ciabatta literally means "slipper". Never did see a
round slipper. But each to their own.
Dimpling does not take the air out if done 15-30 minutes before baking-
just helps distribute it..
Sharon