All,

Its been sometime since I've kept a starter alive and so I'm trying to
build a new one. I'm working with some potato peelings and KA WW flour
to get it started. 100% Hydration in my cool kitchen - between 55-65
deg. F. I am not going to measure PH - so don't even ask.

Anyway - on day 2 everything looked like it was doubling well. But
after about 3 more days, I seem to have loads of sour flavor and
smell, but almost no rise. I'm feeding it regularly - so I'm not
getting hooch or a deflate.

Anyone have an idea what I should use for water temp to encourage the
yeast and discourage the bacteria for a little while? I remember
reading that the bacteria liked it a little warmer - but I just read
(somewhere) that the bacteria might prefer the cold.

So anyway - if I want to keep the bacteria in check, but give the
yeast a boost - does anyone have a temperature recommendation? I've
already dropped some more potato pieces back in the starter to give it
a shot - so I'll see how that helped when I get home.

Thanks in advance,

Tom

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:38:59 -0800 (PST), Tom_Stanton
wrote:

All,

Its been sometime since I've kept a starter alive and so I'm trying to
build a new one. I'm working with some potato peelings and KA WW flour
to get it started. 100% Hydration in my cool kitchen - between 55-65
deg. F. I am not going to measure PH - so don't even ask.

Anyway - on day 2 everything looked like it was doubling well. But
after about 3 more days, I seem to have loads of sour flavor and
smell, but almost no rise. I'm feeding it regularly - so I'm not
getting hooch or a deflate.

Anyone have an idea what I should use for water temp to encourage the
yeast and discourage the bacteria for a little while? I remember
reading that the bacteria liked it a little warmer - but I just read
(somewhere) that the bacteria might prefer the cold.

So anyway - if I want to keep the bacteria in check, but give the
yeast a boost - does anyone have a temperature recommendation? I've
already dropped some more potato pieces back in the starter to give it
a shot - so I'll see how that helped when I get home.

Thanks in advance,

Tom

Hi Tom,

I do suspect that trying to maintain your starter at the
55-65F temp you describe is the source of your problem:
The bacteria growth rate does go up when the starter is
warmer, but I doubt that adding a bit of warmer water will
do it.

You would need to find a way to keep the starter at the
warmer temperature for many hours.

Also, (and unrelated) you might want to just eat the potato,
as it is unlikely to add anything of value to the starter.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:48:07 -0500, Kenneth
wrote:

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:38:59 -0800 (PST), Tom_Stanton
wrote:

All,

Its been sometime since I've kept a starter alive and so I'm trying to
build a new one. I'm working with some potato peelings and KA WW flour
to get it started. 100% Hydration in my cool kitchen - between 55-65
deg. F. I am not going to measure PH - so don't even ask.

Anyway - on day 2 everything looked like it was doubling well. But
after about 3 more days, I seem to have loads of sour flavor and
smell, but almost no rise. I'm feeding it regularly - so I'm not
getting hooch or a deflate.

Anyone have an idea what I should use for water temp to encourage the
yeast and discourage the bacteria for a little while? I remember
reading that the bacteria liked it a little warmer - but I just read
(somewhere) that the bacteria might prefer the cold.

So anyway - if I want to keep the bacteria in check, but give the
yeast a boost - does anyone have a temperature recommendation? I've
already dropped some more potato pieces back in the starter to give it
a shot - so I'll see how that helped when I get home.

Thanks in advance,

Tom

Hi Tom,

I do suspect that trying to maintain your starter at the
55-65F temp you describe is the source of your problem:
The bacteria growth rate does go up when the starter is
warmer, but I doubt that adding a bit of warmer water will
do it.

You would need to find a way to keep the starter at the
warmer temperature for many hours.

Also, (and unrelated) you might want to just eat the potato,
as it is unlikely to add anything of value to the starter.

All the best,

My apologies...

Just as I posted my note above, I re-read your message, and
I had things backwards.

So, starting again...

When you describe "loads of sour flavor" and "almost no
rise" are you talking about your bread, or your starter?

If it is the starter, I would suggest that you might not
have a stable culture as yet.

Also, the temps at which you are working are rather (though
not impossibly) low.

If you could keep your starter in the range of 80F you would
be likely to get better results more quickly, but adding
warmer water will not do it. If you added water at 80 or 85,
and left the starter in your rather cool kitchen, it would
drop in temperature too quickly.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Tom_Stanton wrote:

Anyway - on day 2 everything looked like it was doubling well. But
after about 3 more days, I seem to have loads of sour flavor and
smell, but almost no rise. I'm feeding it regularly - so I'm not
getting hooch or a deflate.

You wish to search on this group for "leuconostoc bacteria." I believe
there's a wikipedia entry even.

Anyway, how your starter tastes has nothing to do with its performance
in bread, and it's more recommended to eat your bread and not your starter.

You're in the right ballpark with trying to warm your product, though.
While my starter here in San Francisco (that I would refer to as a San
Francisco starter, but it would set some off on a tangent) works at
relatively cooler temps of around 60, after 20 years it's quite
established. A just-begun starter isn't going to develop that low.
Wrap the bowl in a heating pad, or if you have an oven with a pilot
light put it in there.

B/

B/

Tom_Stanton wrote:
Anyway - on day 2 everything looked like it was doubling well. But
after about 3 more days, I seem to have loads of sour flavor and
smell, but almost no rise. I'm feeding it regularly - so I'm not
getting hooch or a deflate.

Once year is regular. Could you elaborate a bit?

Kenneth asked if it was your bread or your starter that was too sour. A
good call. In the end, the only reason I care about starter is because
i need starter to make bread. We tend to focus too much on starter
around here. And I'm as guilty as the next person.

We should focus on what makes good bread, not what makes good starter.
Still, if you don't aim the arrow, you won't hit the target. Overall, I
find a fresh smelling healthy starter makes the bread I want. I can
vary the amount of starter I use to control the rise, the sour and the
flavor of the bread. Under feeding tends to cause the starter to be
more sour, to be less controllable, and to give me less rise.

In general, more frequent feedings seem to favor the yeast side of the
symbiosis. In a number of discussions with professional bakers who
specialize in sourdough the consensus is that one feeding a day is not
enough. Twice a day is the practical minimum. And the minimum amount
to feed would be enough to double the size of the starter with each
feeding. (I didn't say "every 12 hours" I said "twice a day." Closer
to every 12 is probably better, but you have a life too.)

The thickness of the starter is another factor. In general a thicker
starter will produce more acetic acid, while a thinner starter will
produce more lactic acid. We tend to taste the acetic acid more. Of
course, with sourdough it always seems there is another factor. If you
use a thinner starter it will process the available nutrients faster and
will become very sour. To avoid this, more frequent feedings are
needed. How wet, how dry? If you weigh your ingredients, one part of
water to one part of flour is about as thin as you want to get. We call
that 100% hydration. This is somewhere between 2 cups of water and 3 to
4 cups of flour (depending on how you fill your cups). A thicker
starter is about 65% hydration, or 65 parts water to 100 parts flour.
Or around 1 cup of water to 2 or 3 cups of water, depending on how you
fill your cups. "How you fill your cups" is a matter for another
discussion.

Another factor is what you feed your starter. Higher ash flours tend to
cause more sour. There are minor, but significant, changes between
white flours. And there is a lot more ash content in whole grain flours
than white.

Anyway, how often, how much and what are you feeding your starters? And
is this discussion about your starter or your bread? If it's about your
bread, let's expand the question .... what recipe are you using, and
what are your times and temperatures?

Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Calm down. It's only ones and zeros.

OK - let me give a little more info.

I'm talking about my starter not any bread that I've tried to make
with this starter. It's 100% hydration with mostly GM AP flour. As of
now - I'm dumping it.

It certainly does not smell fresh. So I'm just going to try again.

But this time around I'll work on keeping it fed 2x / day.

Thanks all!

Tom

On Dec 14, 5:53 pm, Mike Avery wrote:
Tom_Stanton wrote:
Anyway - on day 2 everything looked like it was doubling well. But
after about 3 more days, I seem to have loads of sour flavor and
smell, but almost no rise. I'm feeding it regularly - so I'm not
getting hooch or a deflate.

Once year is regular. Could you elaborate a bit?

Kenneth asked if it was your bread or your starter that was too sour. A
good call. In the end, the only reason I care about starter is because
i need starter to make bread. We tend to focus too much on starter
around here. And I'm as guilty as the next person.

We should focus on what makes good bread, not what makes good starter.
Still, if you don't aim the arrow, you won't hit the target. Overall, I
find a fresh smelling healthy starter makes the bread I want. I can
vary the amount of starter I use to control the rise, the sour and the
flavor of the bread. Under feeding tends to cause the starter to be
more sour, to be less controllable, and to give me less rise.

In general, more frequent feedings seem to favor the yeast side of the
symbiosis. In a number of discussions with professional bakers who
specialize in sourdough the consensus is that one feeding a day is not
enough. Twice a day is the practical minimum. And the minimum amount
to feed would be enough to double the size of the starter with each
feeding. (I didn't say "every 12 hours" I said "twice a day." Closer
to every 12 is probably better, but you have a life too.)

The thickness of the starter is another factor. In general a thicker
starter will produce more acetic acid, while a thinner starter will
produce more lactic acid. We tend to taste the acetic acid more. Of
course, with sourdough it always seems there is another factor. If you
use a thinner starter it will process the available nutrients faster and
will become very sour. To avoid this, more frequent feedings are
needed. How wet, how dry? If you weigh your ingredients, one part of
water to one part of flour is about as thin as you want to get. We call
that 100% hydration. This is somewhere between 2 cups of water and 3 to
4 cups of flour (depending on how you fill your cups). A thicker
starter is about 65% hydration, or 65 parts water to 100 parts flour.
Or around 1 cup of water to 2 or 3 cups of water, depending on how you
fill your cups. "How you fill your cups" is a matter for another
discussion.

Another factor is what you feed your starter. Higher ash flours tend to
cause more sour. There are minor, but significant, changes between
white flours. And there is a lot more ash content in whole grain flours
than white.

Anyway, how often, how much and what are you feeding your starters? And
is this discussion about your starter or your bread? If it's about your
bread, let's expand the question .... what recipe are you using, and
what are your times and temperatures?

Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Calm down. It's only ones and zeros.

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:26:00 -0800 (PST), Tom_Stanton
wrote:

OK - let me give a little more info.

I'm talking about my starter not any bread that I've tried to make
with this starter. It's 100% hydration with mostly GM AP flour. As of
now - I'm dumping it.

It certainly does not smell fresh. So I'm just going to try again.

But this time around I'll work on keeping it fed 2x / day.

Thanks all!

Hi Tom,

Don't be hasty in tossing it out...

You probably are in the early stages of creating your own
starter.

If you still have it, just follow the suggestions Mike
offered.

If not, of course you can start again, but you will be a few
days behind.

(And, stop tasting the starter... Taste the bread.)

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:26:00 -0800 (PST), Tom_Stanton
wrote:

OK - let me give a little more info.

I'm talking about my starter not any bread that I've tried to make
with this starter. It's 100% hydration with mostly GM AP flour. As of
now - I'm dumping it.

It certainly does not smell fresh. So I'm just going to try again.

But this time around I'll work on keeping it fed 2x / day.

Thanks all!

Tom

Hi Tom,

You've got the hydration right, 100% is good. The flour is okay, I
use an all purpose flour in my starter also. I have a few
suggestions:

Start with a clean glass container. If you have city water, boil the
water for 2 or 3 minutes to remove the chlorine and let it cool to
room temp before mixing in the flour.

Store covered, at room temp and feed once a day. Pour out half of the
starter and replace with an equal amount of water (de-chlorinated) and
flour. If you feed more often, you will be throwing out starter that
is trying to get established and actually slowing down the process.

It will take somewhere around a week to ten days to get the beginnings
of a starter. The odor will be strange in the beginning, it won't
smell like something you want to eat. As the starter gets going the
smell will change into something that reminds me of beer or wine, a
yeasty, alcohol smell. Don't taste the starter, it won't hurt you but
it won't tell you anything either.

After the starter is established, you can store it in the fridge and
reduce your feedings to about once a week. When you need it for
bread, take it out about 48 hours before you want to bake. Feed it
twice to be sure it is activated and growing good.

If after 5 or 6 tries you still don't have a good starter, maybe you
should give up. You might be one of those rare folks who kill yeast.
I had an aunt like that, she couldn't even get bread to rise using
commercial yeast.

Good luck.
Jack

Retired VIP wrote:
[..]
It will take somewhere around a week to ten days to get the beginnings
of a starter.
That's probably because you are suggesting/using white (highly refined)
flour which is not only counterproductive to growing a new starter but
also unhealthy:

For example:
http://www.themessenger.info/archive/Nov2001/Bobak.html

Better in both aspects - starting a sourdough starter and feeding your
and other bodies - are full grain flours.

2 - 3 days to get a starter going with better flours should be more typical.

Sam

Sam wrote:
Retired VIP wrote:

[..]
It will take somewhere around a week to ten days to get the beginnings
of a starter.

That's probably because you are suggesting/using white (highly refined)
flour which is not only counterproductive to growing a new starter but
also unhealthy:

For example:
http://www.themessenger.info/archive/Nov2001/Bobak.html

Better in both aspects - starting a sourdough starter and feeding your
and other bodies - are full grain flours.

2 - 3 days to get a starter going with better flours should be more typical.

Several of the old timers here have written that they have NEVER been
able to start a starter with white flour.

The micro-organisms we need to start a starter seem to be on the outer
layers of the grain, and when the grain is milled and refined, the outer
layers are removed from the flour.

Whole wheat or a whole grain rye work much better.

As Dick Adams has pointed out, whole grain flours are bacteriologically
rich. (Actually, he said dirty.) Starting a sourdough starter with
them is a lot like trying to tame a wild lot. A few years back, we
bought the vacant lot behind our house. We wanted to subdue the weeds
and get a decent grass cover on the lot without spending a lot of money
on it.

A friend told us to water and mow often and fertilize from time to
time. I did that. Weeds thrive when they are taller. Cutting them
frequently prevents them from seeding. The grasses we want like to be
watered often compared to weeds. At the end of the first summer, the
lot looked a lot better. By the end of the third summer, the lot looked
quite nice.

Starting a sourdough starter is similar. There are many micro-organisms
in the flour we use to start the starter. We want one of a limited
selection of yeasts and one from a limited number of lactobacillus
bacteria to become dominant. Luckily for us, they usually do that on
their own if we just keep them fed, watered and mowed.

As the bacteria we want develop, the increase the acidity of the starter
and produce antibiotics, both of which discourage most competing
microorganisms. Feeding regularly helps the bacteria and yeast we want
to thrive. Weeding involves discarding half the starter before feeding
it again. While this is somewhat wasteful, it is less wasteful than
doubling the size of the starter with each feeding and not discarding.
If you start with a cup of flour and water and double the size of the
starter twice a day, in just 12 days you'll have an Olympic sized
swimming pool full of starter. And 12 hours later, you'll have two
pools full of starter. You can save the starter that you remove from
the main container and use it to make cake, pancakes, muffins, biscuits
or even bread.

Samartha has step by step instructions on how to start a rye starter on
his web page http://www.samartha.net that work very well.

I have several sets of instructions on how to start a wheat starter (all
of which work) on my web site
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/startingastarter.html

However, while it is very easy for an experienced person to start a
starter, I always recommend beginners start with a known good starter.
It eliminates lots of variables and helps keep people from becoming
frustrated. I get more unhappy letters from people who are trying to
start a starter than all other topics combined.

Mike



--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
Santa's
Whiskers
Need no trimmin'
He kisses kids
Not the wimmin
Burma-Shave

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 08:30:51 -0700, Mike Avery
wrote:

Sam wrote:
Retired VIP wrote:

[..]
It will take somewhere around a week to ten days to get the beginnings
of a starter.

That's probably because you are suggesting/using white (highly refined)
flour which is not only counterproductive to growing a new starter but
also unhealthy:

For example:
http://www.themessenger.info/archive/Nov2001/Bobak.html

Better in both aspects - starting a sourdough starter and feeding your
and other bodies - are full grain flours.

2 - 3 days to get a starter going with better flours should be more typical.


There you go Tom, I don't know what I'm talking about. But now that
the experts have spoken, you should have no further trouble getting a
starter growing.

Jack

Retired VIP wrote:
There you go Tom, I don't know what I'm talking about. But now that
the experts have spoken, you should have no further trouble getting a
starter growing.


If you read what I wrote, you have seen the words "more typical".

Atypical is a new starter grown with white (AP style) flour getting
so sour after two days that it stops growing - as it happened.
In such a situation, without recognizing what is going on and taking
adequate steps, the whole experiment would be considered a failure.

At one point, there was somebody selling sourdough starters along with
litmus papers for pH testing which I think is a very good idea.

Sam

On 18 Dec, 14:35, Sam wrote:
Retired VIP wrote:
[..]
It will take somewhere around a week to ten days to get the beginnings
of a starter.

That's probably because you are suggesting/using white (highly refined)
flour which is not only counterproductive to growing a new starter but
also unhealthy:

For example:http://www.themessenger.info/archive/Nov2001/Bobak.html

Better in both aspects - starting a sourdough starter and feeding your
and other bodies - are full grain flours.

2 - 3 days to get a starter going with better flours should be more typical.

Sam

You're not turning into an evangelical health nut I hope Sam.

Jim