Hi there, ive browsed this group for a while and tried to supress most
trivial questions- UNTIL NOW!
I am following a sourdough Chef recipe from Bread Alone, by Daniel
Leader and Judith Blahnik. I can post the specifics if need be- but it
uses equal parts by weight, flour and water- and a pinch of commercial
yeast. It does not remove any of the previous batch before feeding it
again (although i have had to altar this, because i do not own a big
enough container.)

It is on its fourth day and still resembles a wet dough, and doubles
its volume very fast, every time. It smells strongly like wine. The
book says that by now it should be a loose battery-like consistency...
and this is definitely not the case. Is this bad, or perhapses mine
is just being slow? I am worried that i'm actually not growing a
proper starter, and its just gassy right now.

Also, it gives instructions for turning the chef into your sourdough
starter.... Can someone explain the difference between the two, for
me?

Thanks
Carey

On 2007-12-12, Shmooey wrote:
[...]
It is on its fourth day and still resembles a wet dough, and doubles
its volume very fast, every time. It smells strongly like wine. The
book says that by now it should be a loose battery-like consistency...
and this is definitely not the case. Is this bad, or perhapses mine
is just being slow? I am worried that i'm actually not growing a
proper starter, and its just gassy right now.

The consistency you get will depend partly on the flour you use. If
you use a high-gluten flour, it will be more dough-like and less like
a batter. But it also depends on whether or not there are
acid-producing organisms in there, because acid will slacken the
dough. The wine smell tells me you have a lot of yeast activity, but
is there also a tart, sour, or acidic smell? If not, then you don't
have the right bacteria (see below).

Also, it gives instructions for turning the chef into your sourdough
starter.... Can someone explain the difference between the two, for
me?

Sourdough starter contains lactic acid bacteria, which is what
produces the sourness. There is no lactic acid bacteria in commercial
yeast -- you'll have to get it from the environment somehow. I think
these days the consensus (to the extent there is one) is that the
bacteria will mostly come from the flour, not the air. (You could
always try spitting in it. I don't think anybody's been brave enough
to try that, but I suspect it might just work.)

Most folks here scoff at the idea of starting a sourdough starter with
commercial yeast. It is at best unneccessary, and at worst
counterproductive.

--
Randall

Shmooey wrote:
Hi there, ive browsed this group for a while and tried to supress most
trivial questions- UNTIL NOW!
I am following a sourdough Chef recipe from Bread Alone, by Daniel
Leader and Judith Blahnik. I can post the specifics if need be- but it
uses equal parts by weight, flour and water- and a pinch of commercial
yeast. It does not remove any of the previous batch before feeding it
again (although i have had to altar this, because i do not own a big
enough container.)

It is on its fourth day and still resembles a wet dough, and doubles
its volume very fast, every time. It smells strongly like wine. The
book says that by now it should be a loose battery-like consistency...
and this is definitely not the case. Is this bad, or perhapses mine
is just being slow? I am worried that i'm actually not growing a
proper starter, and its just gassy right now.

Also, it gives instructions for turning the chef into your sourdough
starter.... Can someone explain the difference between the two, for
me?

Thanks
Carey

I kinda equate the smell to stale beer or maybe making wine too.

I don't know the term you are using. What is a 'chef' and what is the
difference?

I also have seen recipes for starter using commercial yeast to start it
although I can't figure out why... The recipe I used called for a pinch
also.

The commercial yeast gives one good blast to make you think something is
going on, then it dies and you have to wait the 4 to 7 days for the wild
yeast to take over.

Mine has the consistency of really sticky pancake batter when working.
When it goes dormant, it might be compared to loose batter.

That 'really' depends on the hydration though. No two flours are the
same dryness so I can never get exactly the same consistency if I weigh
things out, it changes daily here. Well we can go from 40% humidity to
90 in a couple hours here so....

My starter doubles in about 3 hours when fed, then just goes bubbly for
a while before it falls.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

I was under the impression that my initial pinch of yeast had probably
died by now- on its fourth day, but its rising and falling hasn't
missed a beat. Is it too optimistic of me to assume theres some wild
yeasts in here?

Im not sure what the difference between a chef, poolish, biga, levain,
starter ETC is... Ive visited a lot of sites that try and define each
of the words, but they dont seem to help.

Im mostly concerned with- is this super sticky dough too thick of a
consistency? and - do i possibly have an appropriate sourdough starter
on its way?


sites talking about starter terms, including 'chef' :
http://www.recipetips.com/kitchen-ti...-a-starter.asp
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/food/sourdo...ection-35.html

Randall: i think ill definitely spit in one of my other starters i
made last night- just to see what happens. Thanks for the idea :P

"Shmooey" wrote in message
...

I am following a sourdough Chef recipe from Bread Alone, by Daniel
Leader and Judith Blahnik. I can post the specifics if need be- but
it
uses equal parts by weight, flour and water- and a pinch of
commercial
yeast. It does not remove any of the previous batch before feeding
it
again (although i have had to altar this, because i do not own a big
enough container.)

It is on its fourth day and still resembles a wet dough, and doubles
its volume very fast, every time. It smells strongly like wine. The
book says that by now it should be a loose battery-like
consistency...
and this is definitely not the case. Is this bad, or perhapses mine
is just being slow? I am worried that i'm actually not growing a
proper starter, and its just gassy right now.

Also, it gives instructions for turning the chef into your sourdough
starter.... Can someone explain the difference between the two, for
me?

When I started making sourdough "Bread Alone" was the book I was using
as a reference. Daniel Leader uses French terms in the book to refer
to starters, etc. If I recall correctly, and I think I do, chef means
exactly the same thing as starter and the term levain is used when
building that starter to use in making the final dough. I was confused
by the English terms early on myself. Now I just consider everything
starter up until I mix the final dough, but the words used don't
really matter all that much so long as the bread is good.

I never did try his technique of using a pinch of yeast to get a
starter going from scratch. In the book he said that in his bakery
that there was so much yeast in the air that he could just mix flour
and water together and get a starter. I figured I'd give it a try
using just flour and water and it worked. I've since come to believe
that it's not so much the yeast in the air that gets the starter going
as it is the yeast that's in the flour. You starter is probably fine.
I'd give it a few more days if I were you. Sometimes brand new
starters can give you false positives and seem to be rising early on
but then change a bit later. If it's still rising OK after a week or
so you are probably in good shape.

The first recipe I used for sourdough was the recipe in "Bread Alone"
called "Basil's Pain au Levain". Even though I haven't used that
recipe directly for close to ten years, I still think of every batch
of bread I make as a variation on that one recipe. I guess you could
say that its the only recipe I've ever used for sourdough bread, but I
have changed it up quite a bit over the years.

Good luck,
-Mike

On 2007-12-13, Mike Pearce wrote:
"Shmooey" wrote in message
...
[...]
Also, it gives instructions for turning the chef into your sourdough
starter.... Can someone explain the difference between the two, for
me?

When I started making sourdough "Bread Alone" was the book I was using
as a reference. Daniel Leader uses French terms in the book to refer
to starters, etc. If I recall correctly, and I think I do, chef means
exactly the same thing as starter and the term levain is used when
building that starter to use in making the final dough. I was confused
by the English terms early on myself. Now I just consider everything
starter up until I mix the final dough, but the words used don't
really matter all that much so long as the bread is good.

It seems to me that all the various terms used by bakers from
different traditions are born out of superstition and a lack of
understanding of the microbiology. Preferments vary basically along
one dimension: hydration. Sure, there are subtleties, and multi-stage
builds and whatnot, but the terminology as it stands seems only to
confuse these subtleties, not elucidate them. At best, they lock you
into a particular way of thinking about starter builds, blinding you
to other possibilities. For a superstitious baker who doesn't
understand what's going on, this sort of rote learning is essential,
of course, but in the modern era it seems out of place.

--
Randall

Well put, Randall!

Dusty

"Randall Nortman" wrote in message
...
....
It seems to me that all the various terms used by bakers from
different traditions are born out of superstition and a lack of
understanding of the microbiology. Preferments vary basically along
one dimension: hydration. Sure, there are subtleties, and multi-stage
builds and whatnot, but the terminology as it stands seems only to
confuse these subtleties, not elucidate them. At best, they lock you
into a particular way of thinking about starter builds, blinding you
to other possibilities. For a superstitious baker who doesn't
understand what's going on, this sort of rote learning is essential,
of course, but in the modern era it seems out of place.

--
Randall

Shmooey wrote:
I was under the impression that my initial pinch of yeast had probably
died by now- on its fourth day, but its rising and falling hasn't
missed a beat. Is it too optimistic of me to assume theres some wild
yeasts in here?

Im not sure what the difference between a chef, poolish, biga, levain,
starter ETC is... Ive visited a lot of sites that try and define each
of the words, but they dont seem to help.

Im mostly concerned with- is this super sticky dough too thick of a
consistency? and - do i possibly have an appropriate sourdough starter
on its way?


sites talking about starter terms, including 'chef' :
http://www.recipetips.com/kitchen-ti...-a-starter.asp
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/food/sourdo...ection-35.html

I recently made a photo album of growing a loaf of bread that shows my
starter in various stages of grow and shows how sticky and gluey it is.

The album is he http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com It is called
'Growing a Sourdough Bread Loaf'.

The stuff is amazingly sticky when 'active'.

Mike

Shmooey wrote:
I was under the impression that my initial pinch of yeast had probably
died by now- on its fourth day, but its rising and falling hasn't
missed a beat. Is it too optimistic of me to assume theres some wild
yeasts in here?

Im not sure what the difference between a chef, poolish, biga, levain,
starter ETC is... Ive visited a lot of sites that try and define each
of the words, but they dont seem to help.

I just read them. I guess different parts of the world just use
different terms.

'Chef' is just dormant starter that has gone 'flat' and lost it's
bubbles, after a grow period same as 'mother'. I call that dormant
Starter. If I leave mine like that for very long, it dies.

Levian, biga, sour just mean 'sponge'.

I have been using the terms starter and sponge which mean the same thing.

'Sour' to me is the smell. Mine will go 'really' sour smelling if grown
for that. Long ferments.

When I put my 'mother' or 'starter' away in the fridge, I turn it into a
'sour' or 'sponge' first and wait to see bubbles before it gets cold so
it stays slowly growing.

If I put it away like the description of them says, they don't last long
at all.

Mike

"Mike Romain" wrote in message g.com...

[ ... ]

'Chef' is just dormant starter that has gone 'flat' and lost it's
bubbles, after a grow period same as 'mother'. I call that dormant
Starter. If I leave mine like that for very long, it dies.

Levian, biga, sour just mean 'sponge'.

I have been using the terms starter and sponge which mean the same thing.

'Sour' to me is the smell. ...

Herewith, based on my authority as R.F.S. Chief Immoderator, I designate and
confirm you, Mike Romain, as Minister of Misinformation for this newsgroup.

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:
"Mike Romain" wrote in message g.com...

[ ... ]

'Chef' is just dormant starter that has gone 'flat' and lost it's
bubbles, after a grow period same as 'mother'. I call that dormant
Starter. If I leave mine like that for very long, it dies.

Levian, biga, sour just mean 'sponge'.

I have been using the terms starter and sponge which mean the same thing.

'Sour' to me is the smell. ...

Herewith, based on my authority as R.F.S. Chief Immoderator, I designate and
confirm you, Mike Romain, as Minister of Misinformation for this newsgroup.

--
Dicky

Yup, me quoting right from this FAQ, eh.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/food/sourdo...ection-35.html

LOL!

I think Darrell Greenwood should take 'some' of the credit too, his FAQ
for this newsgroup....

Mike

Mike Romain wrote:

Levian, biga, sour just mean 'sponge'.

No... "levian" would be a HUGE amount of "sponge." And the rest is not
correct.

B/

Well in france they call levain-chef the tight sour dough that you use
to create a sourdough bread (using one, 2 or 3 refreshments).
That means the Chef is the one that you use first.
Then you refresh it once, it becomes levain de premiere
refresh it again it becomes levain de seconde
refresh it again it becomes levain tout point
add flour water salt to this one and you have your "pate"

http://www.boulangerie.net/Loi/Dossi...vain/art5.html

probably if you take a bit of your levain tout point and keep it for
later it becomes your chef.

Here is the definition I found: "La définition du levain-chef est une
pâte qui a plus levé qu'il ne faut pour faire du pain. Il faut douze
où quinze heures au levain de chef à prendre son apprêt...s'il était
gardé plus de quatre jours, sans être renouvelé, il se gâterait et
prendrait une amertume qui est un commencement de pourriture."
Which translates: the definition for levain-chef is "a dough that grew
more that it needs to make bread" "the levain-chef needs 12 or 15
hours to proove... if it's kept more than 4 days, without refreshing,
it would spoil and take a bitterness that is the start of rot."

If you go on this page: http://www.boulangerie.net/Loi/Dossi...vain/art2.html
they even show how to create a levain-chef, which is just flour and
water mixed together.

Anyway people trying to understand each other or to learn terms about
starters will always find it difficult and come to confusion for the
simple reason that the same piece of dough, containing the same
ingredients can has so many different names. And probably many people
in many different regions have different terms to call each dough in
each different stage of the process.

Some bakers in France would even call "levain" the dough from
yesterday, not even considering if this dough was made from bakers
yeast or sourdough yeast.

Brian Mailman wrote:
Mike Romain wrote:

Levian, biga, sour just mean 'sponge'.

No... "levian" would be a HUGE amount of "sponge." And the rest is not
correct.

B/

That's like Eskimos having hundreds of works for 'snow'. It is still
'snow'.

You folks really need to tell the gent posting the so called 'FAQ' to
stop posting it. Every time I quote stuff from it, you all tell me it's
just plain wrong!

It shouldn't be called a Frequently Asked Questions post, but a
Frequently Posted Bullshit post.

Mike