TG wrote:
On 13 Dec, 21:53, Mike Romain wrote:
Dick Adams wrote:
"Mike Romain" wrote in shosting.com...
[ ... ]
'Chef' is just dormant starter that has gone 'flat' and lost it's
bubbles, after a grow period same as 'mother'. I call that dormant
Starter. If I leave mine like that for very long, it dies.
Levian, biga, sour just mean 'sponge'.
I have been using the terms starter and sponge which mean the same thing.
'Sour' to me is the smell. ...
Herewith, based on my authority as R.F.S. Chief Immoderator, I designate and
confirm you, Mike Romain, as Minister of Misinformation for this newsgroup.
--
Dicky
Yup, me quoting right from this FAQ, eh.http://www.faqs.org/faqs/food/sourdo...ection-35.html

LOL!

I think Darrell Greenwood should take 'some' of the credit too, his FAQ
for this newsgroup....

Mike- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There's a lesson there Mike. Don't talk crap about crap you don't know
crap about.

Jim

Actually Jim, I am right.

No one has corrected my post other than to just say it's wrong in
'their' educated or uneducated opinion.

After reviewing the literature, my post still stands as posted.

Wet snow, deep snow, dry snow, squeaky snow, corn snow, no matter, all
are still just 'snow'.

Mike

TG wrote:
On 12 Dec, 22:54, Mike Romain wrote:
...
The commercial yeast gives one good blast to make you think something is
going on, then it dies and you have to wait the 4 to 7 days for the wild
yeast to take over.
...
Mike

You talk like you've tested your starter Mike. I suspect you're
talking from your Google. How do you know that wild yeasts have taken
over? My experience of using yeast is that it never dies. It may well
revert to type becoming like wild S.c. but it never dies out from my
experience. At least it has always made bread that tastes like it was
made with S.c.

Jim


I used a recipe to grow my starter that called for the pinch of yeast.
It reacted as stated above.

If my SD starter goes dormant for 2 or 3 days despite feedings, it has
died, so it would stand that the commercial yeast would die under the
same circumstances.

My bread sure looks and tastes like 'real' sourdough. My starter's
'mother' has been going since May I think.

Mike

TG wrote:

He really is full of himself.


In full troll mode today eh?

So what? One, maybe two more drinks before you become incoherent again?

Mike

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 06:07:16 -0800 (PST), TG
wrote:

My experience of using yeast is that it never dies. It may well
revert to type becoming like wild S.c. but it never dies out from my
experience. At least it has always made bread that tastes like it was
made with S.c.

Howdy,

'Not likely...

The s.c. are unable to survive in the lower pH environment.

In effect (and assuming that one is not adding commercial
yeast over time) one starts a "commercial yeast" culture.
But, as it is fed, (and again, over time) the "wild" yeasts
and lactobacilli carried in on the added flour start to
multiply. With that, the pH lowers, and the commercial yeast
is unable to survive. Eventually, one is left with the
culture derived from the critters other than the commercial
yeast used at the outset.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:40:22 -0500, Mike Romain
wrote:

If my SD starter goes dormant for 2 or 3 days despite feedings, it has
died, so it would stand that the commercial yeast would die under the
same circumstances.

Huh...?

Using that logic, one could argue that if birds can fly,
snakes can fly.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 19 Dec, 16:36, Mike Romain wrote:
TG wrote:
On 13 Dec, 21:53, Mike Romain wrote:
After reviewing the literature, my post still stands as posted.


Mike- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The point is Mike, that right or wrong, you are talking out of your
arse because you are just regurgatating what you've read with no
understanding or more to the point humility. Many of us have been
there Mike, and many of us have caught the flak for being a out of
line. If you stop spouting what you've read as if you had first hand,
in depth knowledge of it you will stop getting laughed at and poked.
You're like the little Chihuahua who goes into the pack of Pit Bulls
shouting the odds. You don't have the muscle to back up your
missdeeds. Be respectful to those who actually have the knowledge
Mike. Having read a web page doesn't give you knowledge. You only know
what was written. It means Jack shit.

Jim

On 19 Dec, 16:40, Mike Romain wrote:
I used a recipe to grow my starter that called for the pinch of yeast.
It reacted as stated above.

If my SD starter goes dormant for 2 or 3 days despite feedings, it has
died, so it would stand that the commercial yeast would die under the
same circumstances.

My bread sure looks and tastes like 'real' sourdough. My starter's
'mother' has been going since May I think.

Mike- Hide quoted text -

See Mike, this is the consequence of spouting your mouth off about
that which you know nought. Your words mean nothing. Since what you're
saying flies in the face of both mine and many other peoples
experience, not to mention bakers throughout history, this is the chef
you've been carping on about, no body is going to take seriously what
you've said about one single incidence of a self confessed no nought
quoting from the FAQ as if he knew something.

Okay I've gone far enough.

Jim

On 19 Dec, 17:44, Mike Romain wrote:
TG wrote:

He really is full of himself.



In full troll mode today eh?

So what? One, maybe two more drinks before you become incoherent again?

Mike

Oh, grow up Mike.

Jim

On 19 Dec, 18:40, Kenneth wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 06:07:16 -0800 (PST), TG

wrote:
My experience of using yeast is that it never dies. It may well
revert to type becoming like wild S.c. but it never dies out from my
experience. At least it has always made bread that tastes like it was
made with S.c.

Howdy,

'Not likely...

The s.c. are unable to survive in the lower pH environment.

In effect (and assuming that one is not adding commercial
yeast over time) one starts a "commercial yeast" culture.
But, as it is fed, (and again, over time) the "wild" yeasts
and lactobacilli carried in on the added flour start to
multiply. With that, the pH lowers, and the commercial yeast
is unable to survive. Eventually, one is left with the
culture derived from the critters other than the commercial
yeast used at the outset.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth, with all respect. I have a culture going in my kitchen that
if left, as is the case sometimes, it becomes as low as pH 2.6, I
refresh it and it carries on as normal. It's the Ginger Beer Plant. Go
to the Yahoo Group and read the literature
"An Exposition on the Fermentation of Ginger- Beer Plant
Brewing with the Gelatinous Ginger Beer Plant:
Converting Lactic-Acid Beverages to Alcoholic Ginger Beer
Composition of the Ginger- Beer Plant:
As Isolated by H. Marshall Ward"
http://tinyurl.com/3dz8s7
http://tinyurl.com/ysuh7z

No Mike, I'm not just quoting, I'm using this as reference. I've got
17 years of experience using both sourdough and yeasted starters, not
to mention my family's bakery running since the middle of the 19th C.


You'll see that it contains amongst other things S.c.. S.c. is and was
a wild yeast. Like domesticated dogs they can quickly return to type.
Mike Avery also use this analogy with very good reason. See the recent
thread the S,c and S.e.

Jim

On 19 Dec, 16:36, Mike Romain wrote:
TG wrote:
On 13 Dec, 21:53, Mike Romain wrote:
Dick Adams wrote:
"Mike Romain" wrote in shosting.com...
[ ... ]
'Chef' is just dormant starter that has gone 'flat' and lost it's
bubbles, after a grow period same as 'mother'. I call that dormant
Starter. If I leave mine like that for very long, it dies.
Levian, biga, sour just mean 'sponge'.
I have been using the terms starter and sponge which mean the same thing.
'Sour' to me is the smell. ...
Herewith, based on my authority as R.F.S. Chief Immoderator, I designate and
confirm you, Mike Romain, as Minister of Misinformation for this newsgroup.
--
Dicky
Yup, me quoting right from this FAQ, eh.http://www.faqs.org/faqs/food/sourdo...ection-35.html

LOL!

I think Darrell Greenwood should take 'some' of the credit too, his FAQ
for this newsgroup....

Mike- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There's a lesson there Mike. Don't talk crap about crap you don't know
crap about.

Jim

Actually Jim, I am right.

No one has corrected my post other than to just say it's wrong in
'their' educated or uneducated opinion.

Actually Mike, I'll put it another way. You aren't right at all, the
person you are quoting may or may not be right. But you have no
position what so ever because, you only have read something. That is
meaningless without the experience to back it up.

You may as well be saying 'Landing on the moon would be impossible
because the surface is like quicksand. I'm right. I read it and no one
has corrected me.'

You have a very smart peace of kit inside your head. Use it.

The irony of all this last bit of the thread is you're disputing the
existence of the very thing you're quoting about at the start. You may
as well be carrying a pigs bladder on a stick.

Jim

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 01:03:53 -0800 (PST), TG
wrote:

On 19 Dec, 18:40, Kenneth wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 06:07:16 -0800 (PST), TG

wrote:
My experience of using yeast is that it never dies. It may well
revert to type becoming like wild S.c. but it never dies out from my
experience. At least it has always made bread that tastes like it was
made with S.c.

Howdy,

'Not likely...

The s.c. are unable to survive in the lower pH environment.

In effect (and assuming that one is not adding commercial
yeast over time) one starts a "commercial yeast" culture.
But, as it is fed, (and again, over time) the "wild" yeasts
and lactobacilli carried in on the added flour start to
multiply. With that, the pH lowers, and the commercial yeast
is unable to survive. Eventually, one is left with the
culture derived from the critters other than the commercial
yeast used at the outset.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth, with all respect. I have a culture going in my kitchen that
if left, as is the case sometimes, it becomes as low as pH 2.6, I
refresh it and it carries on as normal. It's the Ginger Beer Plant. Go
to the Yahoo Group and read the literature
"An Exposition on the Fermentation of Ginger- Beer Plant
Brewing with the Gelatinous Ginger Beer Plant:
Converting Lactic-Acid Beverages to Alcoholic Ginger Beer
Composition of the Ginger- Beer Plant:
As Isolated by H. Marshall Ward"
http://tinyurl.com/3dz8s7
http://tinyurl.com/ysuh7z

Howdy,

I gather from your "with all respect" comment that you are
disagreeing with something I wrote, but I don't know what it
is.

What did I say that you are at odds with?

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 20 Dec, 13:00, Kenneth wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 01:03:53 -0800 (PST), TG





....net wrote:
....net wrote:
My experience of using yeast is that it never dies. It may well
revert to type becoming like wild S.c. but it never dies out from my
experience. At least it has always made bread that tastes like it was
made with S.c.

Howdy,

'Not likely...

The s.c. are unable to survive in the lower pH environment.

In effect (and assuming that one is not adding commercial
yeast over time) one starts a "commercial yeast" culture.
.... With that, the pH lowers, and the commercial yeast
is unable to survive. Eventually, one is left with the
culture derived from the critters other than the commercial
yeast used at the outset.

Kenneth


Kenneth, with all respect. I have a culture going in my kitchen that
if left, as is the case sometimes, it becomes as low as pH 2.6, I
refresh it and it carries on as normal. It's the Ginger Beer Plant. Go
to the Yahoo Group and read the literature
"An Exposition on the Fermentation of Ginger- Beer Plant
Brewing with the Gelatinous Ginger Beer Plant:
Converting Lactic-Acid Beverages to Alcoholic Ginger Beer
Composition of the Ginger- Beer Plant:
As Isolated by H. Marshall Ward"
http://tinyurl.com/3dz8s7
http://tinyurl.com/ysuh7z

Howdy,

What did I say that you are at odds with?

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

- Show quoted text -

Kenneth, and you a smart guy. Okay I should have deleted all the other
rubbish. I've done that now so you can see it more clearly. Even so I
don't think it looks like we're agreeing with each other. I don't
often disagree with what you say Kenneth but on this occasion I think
you're repeating what others have said rather than relying on
experience. I'm not saying that lb's don't move in. It was/ is a wild
yeast after all. Don't forget that S.c was around long before Pasteur
isolated it. Bakers were using it long before it was cultured
sparately. It's survived in the ginger beer plant culture for who
knows how many centuries along with lb's and other yeasts. Suddenly
some guy found it didn't survive in his culture in the lab and all
that history is forgotten.

Jim

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 06:35:39 -0800 (PST), TG
wrote:


Kenneth, and you a smart guy. Okay I should have deleted all the other
rubbish. I've done that now so you can see it more clearly. Even so I
don't think it looks like we're agreeing with each other. I don't
often disagree with what you say Kenneth but on this occasion I think
you're repeating what others have said rather than relying on
experience. I'm not saying that lb's don't move in. It was/ is a wild
yeast after all. Don't forget that S.c was around long before Pasteur
isolated it. Bakers were using it long before it was cultured
sparately. It's survived in the ginger beer plant culture for who
knows how many centuries along with lb's and other yeasts. Suddenly
some guy found it didn't survive in his culture in the lab and all
that history is forgotten.

Jim

Hi again Jim,

Why do you believe that it is s.c. that is alive and well in
the low pH cultures you describe?

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 06:35:39 -0800 (PST), TG
"TG" wrote:

[ ... ]

Killfiling "TG" and Mike Romain really cleans this group up. If you, Kenneth,
insist on coddling and encouraging these bumblebrains, you'll need to go, as well.

Well, probably you won't see this, as you have had me killfiled for years.

--
Dicky

Kenneth wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:40:22 -0500, Mike Romain
wrote:

If my SD starter goes dormant for 2 or 3 days despite feedings, it has
died, so it would stand that the commercial yeast would die under the
same circumstances.

Huh...?

Using that logic, one could argue that if birds can fly,
snakes can fly.

All the best,

You are right, it was a bad analogy.

Mike