For the baking good luck because the way they bake their
bread is very close to being the best.

Now I am confused again. Whose/which is best? Just exactly
how do they bake it?


They use very big gueulard wood oven (this one with the fire box
underneath and the flame going in the oven chamber)
Their oven can fit more than 60 loaves which is really huge, the oven
peel is reaal long.
When I talking about baking I'm talking about what oven you use, but
also how good you bake it.

I don't know what WMD means.

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:33:06 -0700, viince
wrote:


There again I think anybody really interested in bread making should
learn how to assess the consistency of the bread.
Percentages of water and flour can be really different depending on
many things and don't always mean much. Following a recipe to the
letter doesn't always do good.
I think recipes are good for pastry stuff, cake stuff, and other fancy
thingies. but when making bread, you have to feel the dough and then
see.


A man after my own heart. Be careful, though, around here, such an
attitude can get you shot.

Boron

How about grain type? Wheat, spelt, kamut, rye and then flour type/ash
content.


oops very true, grain type and extraction would go very high on the
list of importance.

I mean, what kind of question is this - most important factors? Once you
isolated them and know it all, what do you do?
Turn the knobs on the more important factors first or more - for what
purpose?

Or is this a philosophical question?

I'd say, the most important factor on bread is the baker - without
baker, no bread - period!


That's true, I think that goes without saying.
When I'm saying which factor influences the most the quality of the
bread, I'm talking about the factor, not the details.
When I say baking, I'm saying it depends on how good the bread is
baked, meaning the baker baking the bread does it good, at the right
temperature and timing and in a good oven well managed.
Same for all that is mixing shaping slashing etc, it all depends on
the baker, how good he does it.


Absolutely - it's always good to strive for perfection but who is the
judge for the perfect bread taste?


Well I AM of course.
for my own taste
Of course I had this conversation with my girlfriend many times
because everytime I bring bread back home she tells me its burnt.
Perfect bread is for everybody to judge and I'm just giving my
opinion.
But still, it doesnt change which factors influence the quality of the
bread, I think the baking has a great importance, maybe for one person
the baking is important to have a thin crispy crust, for another
person you need a very thick dark crust. It's different taste, but
it's still the baking that influences it.

To make an order I'd say personally:

1. baker skills
2. Fermentation
3. Baking
4. Ingredients maybe

I just changed my mind, fermentation goes before baking. I think they
are the 2 that influence the taste of bread the most.

After we probably must make difference between the taste of bread and
the overall quality, esthetics and all.

Or maybe we just wasting time talking here.
flour and water, bang, you have bread.

A man after my own heart. Be careful, though, around here, such an
attitude can get you shot.


I know

Boron

Boron Elgar wrote:
A man after my own heart. Be careful, though, around here, such an
attitude can get you shot.



Actually, it would be bickering, name calling and refusing to be civil
that will "get you shot.". The people here are, by and large, civil.
But they don't take provocation very well.

Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
A scratchy chin
Like bright
Pink socks
Puts any romance
On the rocks
Burma-Shave

"viince" wrote in message ups.com...
[ ... ]
To make an order I'd say personally:

1. baker skills
2. Fermentation
3. Baking
4. Ingredients maybe

In considering baker qualities, should we not also include purity of heart?

Or maybe we just wasting time talking here.
flour and water, bang, you have bread.

Sometimes pffft!

(Sometimes, then, a thread about that. Could be a book, even.)

--
Diicky

viince wrote:
I personally think the most important factors when making bread are
baking and fermentation.
Other important factors such as mixing, shaping, handling, slashing,
etc also contribute to the quality. But I think the baking makes the
biggest difference.

I think it was Peter Reinhart who once said that that the baking only
contributes about 10% of the final quality of the bread. I'm not sure
how you quantify that, but it's probably close to right. However,
baking can detract a whole lot more than that 10% if it isn't done right.

My own feeling is that what is most important in any given loaf of bread
is what wasn't done right. A great baker, a great oven, a great mixer,
excellent fermentation, great shaping and great baking.... but the flour
was seriously sub-par. You're gonna get an OK loaf of bread at best.

A great loaf of bread is like a symphony where all the players are
playing their parts with distinction. The triangle player being off
time can make a symphony a disaster or a joke. A violinist who isn't
quite there can bring tears to your eyes. And so on.

Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Computer programmers don't byte, they nybble a bit.

In considering baker qualities, should we not also include purity of heart?


Mmm I'm not sure... I know a few dicks who make quite good bread...
But one of my coworker use to say: "You have to be born a baker, you
need the thing in your hands that make the bread good. Some people
will try to do exactly same than you, using the same recipe and all,
but their bread will be shit, that's just because they can't do it".
He was talking about our current headbaker. And it was true, his bread
was just crap


Or maybe we just wasting time talking here.
flour and water, bang, you have bread.

Sometimes pffft!

(Sometimes, then, a thread about that. Could be a book, even.)

I might, but unfortunately there's not much to talk about.

I think it was Peter Reinhart who once said that that the baking only
contributes about 10% of the final quality of the bread. I'm not sure
how you quantify that, but it's probably close to right. However,
baking can detract a whole lot more than that 10% if it isn't done right.


True, you can spend so much time making beautiful perfect bread but if
you burn it or overproof it or whatever, that's it, gone.
I personally think the baking is much more than 10%. That's where you
get the crust, and a good crust makes a big different for the taste
and even keeping of the bread.

My own feeling is that what is most important in any given loaf of bread
is what wasn't done right. A great baker, a great oven, a great mixer,
excellent fermentation, great shaping and great baking.... but the flour
was seriously sub-par. You're gonna get an OK loaf of bread at best.

I don't know what sub-par means. But if I want to make bread at home,
I won't buy the most expensive or I dunno what gluten content flour. I
go to lidl and by the cheapest all purpose flour. And the bread is
very good. (well for me)

viince wrote:

...And I just think people sometimes are trying so hard to find
complicated ways to make their bread, while it can be so simple....

Many of those people have rather undernourished egos, and need to feel
they're better at something than anyone else, by making it so
complicated (and expensive).

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:
viince wrote:


...And I just think people sometimes are trying so hard to find
complicated ways to make their bread, while it can be so simple....


Many of those people have rather undernourished egos, and need to feel
they're better at something than anyone else, by making it so
complicated (and expensive).


If that's so - just let them... who cares? Another ego.

s.

Very interesting. Reminds me of Hamelman's book. He does a lot with
pre-ferment stages. And it suggests that the starter is never
refrigerated... :-)

I've been keeping mine between 64-70 F and have noticed a difference
in the flavor of the bread which I find favorable. It seems to have a
fuller flavor and pleasant lingering finish. This might, however, be
the result of other variables I am overlooking. What are your
experiences with keeping your starter at different temperatures?

What we do not know is whether or not the flour supplied to the
Poilane bakers is already blended. I assume Poilane has custom flour
so I would not discount the spelt component.- Hide quoted text -

I've been dabbling in spelt here and there since I tried Ken Forkish's
bread in Portland, OR. My understanding is that he is also a fan of
Pain Poilane. I haven't had the latter, but Ken's bread has a
wonderful creamy mouth feel that I attribute to the spelt. I'm
endeavoring lately to discern the difference in the bread from
addition of spelt in the final mix and that of the starter maintained
with a portion of spelt.

-erich

In considering baker qualities, should we not also include purity of heart?

I experimented with that. I hoped to choke my family to death by using
my heart to focus "pure" hatred into the bread during every step of
production. My wife cleared her throat once during dinner, but that
was about all.

-Erich

For those who are interested to see how the bread is made in Poilane
bakery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6vG06VStu4

It's in french though.

To sum up what the guy says in the 6minutes of the interview:
"I like to make bread it is very nice, it is very tasty and nice to
make bread blablabla I like it blablabla nice one"

I'm taking the mick but it's actually really interesting I think to
watch.

And as you can see as I said they only weigh the salt. For the rest
they use their super skillz.

"viince" wrote in message ups.com...

It's in french though. To sum up what the guy says in the 6
minutes of the interview: "I like to make bread it is very nice,
it is very tasty and nice to make bread blablabla I like it
blablabla nice one"

It is always nice to find someone fluent in the french language.

And as you can see as I said they only weigh the salt.

Yeah, well I don't even weigh that. And (one very significant
thing): when it comes to baking, it is done here in an oven that
came 50 or 60 years ago in a Kenmore kitchen range which
today has a negative cash value it would cost $$$ to have it
hauled away.

I don't suppose that Poilâne bakers, or Kenneth, could say that.
(Their ovens could raise matzo dough.)

--
Diicky