On Oct 15, 8:18 am, Kenneth wrote:
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 06:09:27 -0700, Will

wrote:
What we do not know is whether or not the flour supplied to the
Poilane bakers is already blended. I assume Poilane has custom flour
so I would not discount the spelt component.

Howdy,

The Poilâne website describes their use of spelt...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Indeed it does. Specifically:

"Together with this, the Poilâne Company has encouraged growing spelt.
This type of wheat has very good qualities for making bread, but it
had almost completely disappeared since the beginning of the 19th
century. Its grains are covered with straw husks that entail the use
of a sheller prior to milling. Today, Poilâne flour contains about 30%
of spelt."

If you look at the bread ingredients what you see is T80 wheat flour,
water and salt... no mention of spelt. But I suppose it's consistent
if you consider spelt a variety of wheat.

If you look at the bread ingredients what you see is T80 wheat flour,
water and salt... no mention of spelt. But I suppose it's consistent
if you consider spelt a variety of wheat.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep they get their own flour from the miller (lots of bakeries get
that in France) and it's not impossible that they have a blend of
different varieties, including spelt.
But T80 is just a wholemeal with not so much bran in it. I'm sure
anybody can make T80 style flour by just sieving wholemeal flour.
After you have to find something to do with the left over bran, give
it to the wife for her healthy breakfast maybe
I read that bakeries long time ago were sieving their flour themselves
to get to get a finer, whiter flour. It's only recently that millers
started doing this. So I don't see why home bakers can't do it
themselves

I really like T80 flour as it contains most of the goodness of the
grain, but is not too hard to digest.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:53:05 -0000, viince
wrote:

I know it is pretty disapointing, all these dreams of long
fermentation, and technology of baking, there's nothing like that
there. I'm not saying their bread is not good, it's really good bread,
but it's far from being the best. That's why it makes me laugh when I
see people exchanging Poilane recipes and Poilane starters on the
internet

Howdy,

It is nice to hear that it makes you laugh, but your
comments above include the very reason for the behavior that
amuses you.

It is certainly true that commercial bakers often have
access to tools and techniques that home bakers lack.

But (particularly with regard to technique) home bakers
often have resources that commercial bakers do not, or at
least, would prefer not, to use. Very long fermentation is
probably the most obvious of those. If commercial bakers do
it, their costs soar. For home bakers, there is no such
cost.

As you have said, the Poilâne loaf is "far from being the
best."

That would seem to leave some room for improvement. How
better to do that than by experimenting with different
approaches?

And regarding the starter:

Though they no longer do it, years ago, folks at the Poilâne
bakery were happy to offer home-baker customers a pinch of
their levain.

It certainly makes sense to me that it would be shared with
others interested in having it.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:10:41 -0400, "Jeff Miller"
wrote:


Kenneth wrote:

And regarding the starter:

Though they no longer do it, years ago, folks at the
Poilâne bakery were happy to offer home-baker
customers a pinch of their levain.

It certainly makes sense to me that it would be shared
with others interested in having it.

Just curious, how does the Poilane starter differ from other starters you've
worked with, if it differs at all?

Hi Jeff,

With regret, I can't post the taste g, but that is the
answer.

Also, I have stored the Poilâne and ACME side-by-side in my
refrigerator for many years.

Often I have thought, "After all this time, surely they have
become the same."

But then, I do a very simple test:

Again, side-by-side I mix up a few grams of each with equal
amounts of flour and water. Then, I put the mixtures in
identical graduates to watch 'em rise.

After a few hours, the ACME is about twice as "tall."

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Take old dough(from previous mix), make a preferment with it adding
flour and water to it (100 flour, 40 old dough, about 60water) making
it a tight dough.
Leave it for about an hour to proove.
Then mix the main dough, using:
100 flour T80 (a fine wholemeal. If no T80 available, I guess you can
just sieve wholemeal flour)
2 coarse sea salt
30 preferment

Are the numbers grams or baker's percentages?

Jonathan Kandell wrote:
Take old dough(from previous mix), make a preferment with it adding
flour and water to it (100 flour, 40 old dough, about 60water) making
it a tight dough.
Leave it for about an hour to proove.
Then mix the main dough, using:
100 flour T80 (a fine wholemeal. If no T80 available, I guess you can
just sieve wholemeal flour)
2 coarse sea salt
30 preferment


Are the numbers grams or baker's percentages?

Hmmm..given that the numbers above total 332, that would be a rather
small loaf. Considering that the Poilane miche is supposed to be two
kilograms, I'd have to guess the numbers would be bakers percentages.
It is also interesting that there is neither yeast nor water in the
final dough. Old dough is usually a yeasted process, and the yeast has
to come from somewhere! Also, there isn't enough water in the
pre-ferment to adequately hydrate the dough.

Let's assume we are shooting for 80% hydration, which is reasonable for
a whole wheat bread. (also, if you grind your own wheat with a
micronizer mill, sifting probably won't help - the particles are too
uniform to sift well.) Instead of sifting the whole wheat flour, one
could also dilute it with some all-purpose or bread flour. All-purpose
is probably closer to a classic French flour, so mixing about 80% whole
wheat and 20% all-purpose would be close enough. Since some of the
water will come from the preferment, I'll drop the amount of water to
about 76%. It's close enough for bread making.

Finally, the yeast. How much to use? I'd guess is about .3% instant
yeast, again, as a bakers percentage.

To make a two kilogram loaf with that recipe, try:

Preferment:
144 grams Flour
58 grams Old Dough
86 grams Water

Final dough:
960 grams Flour
19 grams Salt
730 grams Water
288 grams Preferment
3 grams Instant Yeast

If anyone tries it, I'd appreciate hearing how it turned out. I'm not
sure when I'll be able to try it.

A few more interesting observations..... Bernard Clayton has a recipe
that was approved by Pierre Poilane, the father of Lionel, that was a
straight dough - no sourdough, no old dough, no poolish. Also no spelt,
and little whole wheat. If you go to their web site, they tell you they
use 30% spelt (it isn't clear if that is a bakers percentage or a more
conventional percentage) and a sourdough process. It seems that there
are a number of hints about the Poilane formula, and that they are all
different.

Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
Spread it on
And lightly too
Shave it off
That's all
You're through
Burma-Shave

On Oct 25, 11:44 pm, Jonathan Kandell wrote:
Take old dough(from previous mix), make a preferment with it adding
flour and water to it (100 flour, 40 old dough, about 60water) making
it a tight dough.
Leave it for about an hour to proove.
Then mix the main dough, using:
100 flour T80 (a fine wholemeal. If no T80 available, I guess you can
just sieve wholemeal flour)
2 coarse sea salt
30 preferment

Are the numbers grams or baker's percentages?

Yes obviously.
100 flour
65 water
2 salt
30 preferment
The water content depends on your dough, it could be 64 as it could be
68 at the end. This is something you need to adjust while you're
working your dough.

For poilane size loaf:

Preferment
170 flour
68 Old dough
102 water

Dough
1120 flour
730 water
22 salt
335 preferment

That's for 2.2Kg of dough, it should weigh about 1.9kg after baking.

Hmmm..given that the numbers above total 332, that would be a rather
small loaf. Considering that the Poilane miche is supposed to be two
kilograms, I'd have to guess the numbers would be bakers percentages.
It is also interesting that there is neither yeast nor water in the
final dough. Old dough is usually a yeasted process, and the yeast has
to come from somewhere!

Well the yeast comes from the old dough. and I'm talking sourdough
yeast. That's if you're making your "Poilane" loaf all the time. I was
describing how they make it in Poilane bakery. If you start it from
the begining you just use your starter instead of old dough to mix the
preferment. The point is that in Poilane they don't use a separate
starter, they use a piece of dough from the previous batch, meaning
there is salt on it.

Also, there isn't enough water in the
pre-ferment to adequately hydrate the dough.


I said just after: Enough water to make a nice dough, not too tight.
That's probably about 65%. most artisan bakeries dont weigh the water
AND the flour, they just weigh one and adjust the other. In Poilane
they weigh the water in buckets and they add enough flour. In other
bakeries they weigh the flour which is allready in bags, so that makes
it easier.

Let's assume we are shooting for 80% hydration, which is reasonable for
a whole wheat bread.

If you put 80% water for this bread you're gonna end up with a nice
soup, good luck.
Maybe your whole wheat absorbs that much water, but "Poilane" bread is
not whole wheat. It's made with T80 flour. And there's a big
difference.


Finally, the yeast. How much to use? I'd guess is about .3% instant
yeast, again, as a bakers percentage.

Then that's not sourdough bread anymore.
If you have a preferment I don't see why you need to add yeast. unless
you're on a hurry and you want to bang your loaf in an hour.

To make a two kilogram loaf with that recipe, try:

Preferment:
144 grams Flour
58 grams Old Dough
86 grams Water

Final dough:
960 grams Flour
19 grams Salt
730 grams Water
288 grams Preferment
3 grams Instant Yeast


That makes exactly 2000g, they scale their bread at 2.2KG
Again I don't see the point for the yeast that's just pointless. or at
least if I were to put that much yeast I would put less preferment
then.

If anyone tries it, I'd appreciate hearing how it turned out. I'm not
sure when I'll be able to try it.


I won't try this sorry. I'm too busy making bread everyday.


A few more interesting observations..... Bernard Clayton has a recipe
that was approved by Pierre Poilane, the father of Lionel, that was a
straight dough - no sourdough, no old dough, no poolish. Also no spelt,
and little whole wheat.

Well I guess if Meister Poilane approves a recipe, that must be real
good.
I wish he would approve my recipes but now he's dead, who else should
I ask for approval??

If you go to their web site, they tell you they
use 30% spelt (it isn't clear if that is a bakers percentage or a more
conventional percentage) and a sourdough process. It seems that there
are a number of hints about the Poilane formula, and that they are all
different.


I just said what was the "Poilane formula" in the previous posts and
you changed it to make your own. That's probably the problem with you
guys you just want to make everything more complicated than it really
is. Bread is bread, it's just flour water and salt. There is no big
secret, anybody can do it. If I had a 6yr old kid at hand, I sure
could teach him how to make a great loaf of bread


I'm not just trying to be nasty but sometimes you guys are just
pulling your hair too much. No offence for Poilane either, he's a
great baker and I read Lionel Poilane's book which is really good. But
you don't need anybody's approval to make good bread, there are loads
of people making much better bread than Poilane.

Cheers!

viince wrote:
Hmmm..given that the numbers above total 332, that would be a rather
small loaf. Considering that the Poilane miche is supposed to be two
kilograms, I'd have to guess the numbers would be bakers percentages.
It is also interesting that there is neither yeast nor water in the
final dough. Old dough is usually a yeasted process, and the yeast has
to come from somewhere!


Well the yeast comes from the old dough. and I'm talking sourdough
yeast. That's if you're making your "Poilane" loaf all the time. I was
describing how they make it in Poilane bakery. If you start it from
the begining you just use your starter instead of old dough to mix the
preferment. The point is that in Poilane they don't use a separate
starter, they use a piece of dough from the previous batch, meaning
there is salt on it.

Your instructions were not terribly well written. When I first read
them, I ignored them because I didn't think it was a sourdough recipe.
More on that in paragraph. The fact that there was only one response to
the formula kinda substantiates by belief.... especially since that
response was, "is this grams or bakers percentage?" No one seems to
have been inspired to try the formula, judging by the lack of "Thanks
for the great recipe" posts.


I have been a hobbyist baker for over 30 years, and a professional for
over 5. I've never seen the term "old dough" applied to sourdough. Old
dough has always been a yeasted process. And more yeast is added to the
final dough. Which is why I assumed the recipe wasn't sourdough and I
made the changes I did.

You're right, I didn't accommodate loss in baking, the loaf should have
been larger. Also, the batch of dough should have been even larger to
accommodate saving more dough for the next batch. My bad.

Most of the time when people in this newsgroup are making things too
hard for themselves, it is because they are trying to figure out hastily
written instructions.

I've been in a number of artisan bakeries, and have been trained by some
excellent bakers. In all cases I am familiar with, they weigh ALL
ingredients, liquid and solid. And then they adjust the dough as
needed. Most bakers I know prefer to adjust the water as that doesn't
change the rest of the bakers percentages.

In the end, there are a lot of ways to make good bread,
Mike

In article . com,
viince wrote:

That's probably the problem with you
guys you just want to make everything more complicated than it really
is. Bread is bread, it's just flour water and salt. There is no big
secret, anybody can do it.


But
you don't need anybody's approval to make good bread, there are loads
of people making much better bread than Poilane.



Question for you: if bread is just water, flour and salt what factors
do you think allow some people to make much better bread than Poilane?

The question I have is what are the most important factors that would
contribute to a distinctive bread profile in your experience/opinion.

Roland

Joe Doe wrote:
Question for you: if bread is just water, flour and salt what factors
do you think allow some people to make much better bread than Poilane?

The question I have is what are the most important factors that would
contribute to a distinctive bread profile in your experience/opinion.


Noise - he who makes the loudest noise gets the most attention.

Has nothing to do with quality. To stay within fermentation: US beer is
an excellent example.

Also, I am not you, but who cares.

Sam
Roland
_______________________________________________
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough

Your instructions were not terribly well written. When I first read
them, I ignored them because I didn't think it was a sourdough recipe.
More on that in paragraph. The fact that there was only one response to
the formula kinda substantiates by belief.... especially since that
response was, "is this grams or bakers percentage?" No one seems to
have been inspired to try the formula, judging by the lack of "Thanks
for the great recipe" posts.

What can I say, I'm sorry I'm not a book writter. I'm not going around
saying I know how to make the best bread. I just see people talking
about "Poilane" bread so I though some of you guys might be interested
to know how Poilane make their bread. The instructions I gave are not
inspiring because that's the way they make their bread.
I'm sorry to hear nobody's interested in the formula. It's probably
because there's nothing special about this formula. Which brings to
the point of my first post: There's nothing special about Poilane's
bread, expect the wood oven and the name.


I have been a hobbyist baker for over 30 years, and a professional for
over 5. I've never seen the term "old dough" applied to sourdough. Old
dough has always been a yeasted process. And more yeast is added to the
final dough. Which is why I assumed the recipe wasn't sourdough and I
made the changes I did.

Very good for you. I've been a ""professional"" baker for 3 years and
a hobbyist for over 2.
The first time I saw the term "old dough" applied to sourdough is when
I went for a trial to Poilane's bakery.
I don't know who makes the regulations for names of fermented things.
I guess if the old dough you use is sourdough, well you're making
sourdough bread.
I'm not inventing anything, I'm just saying things how they are. If
you take a piece of dough from a previous mix and make a new dough,
well you're making bread. I'm sure that's how bakers have been doing
their bread for ages, and you don't need to add commercial yeast in
any stage. Commercial yeast being a relatively recent invention I
wonder how bakers were using old dough in a yeasted process. Once
again, who makes those rules?


You're right, I didn't accommodate loss in baking, the loaf should have
been larger. Also, the batch of dough should have been even larger to
accommodate saving more dough for the next batch. My bad.


Good point there, I forgot the dough for next batch! My bad as well

Most of the time when people in this newsgroup are making things too
hard for themselves, it is because they are trying to figure out hastily
written instructions.

I'm not good at giving instructions, I must admit. I was just
unpleasantly surprised by the drastic way you rephrased what I said.


I've been in a number of artisan bakeries, and have been trained by some
excellent bakers. In all cases I am familiar with, they weigh ALL
ingredients, liquid and solid. And then they adjust the dough as
needed. Most bakers I know prefer to adjust the water as that doesn't
change the rest of the bakers percentages.


That's true as well. I weigh all the ingredients myself too. I
shouldn't have said "most" bakeries because that's probably not the
case. But I'm sure many do as I've already seen a few. When people
have been making the same bread for years, I guess they're not
bothered any more to waste time weighing stuff, and since flour comes
in weighed bags, it makes it easier to put one bag of flour, a few
jugs of starter and a few handfuls of salt.
Once again I'm just bringing some input about Poilane because
everybody seems so interested.
They only weigh the salt in their bread. then they put how much water
they need using a graduated bucket, and then add flour until the
consistency is right.
I'm not saying that's the best way. I actually don't think it's a good
way.

There again I think anybody really interested in bread making should
learn how to assess the consistency of the bread.
Percentages of water and flour can be really different depending on
many things and don't always mean much. Following a recipe to the
letter doesn't always do good.
I think recipes are good for pastry stuff, cake stuff, and other fancy
thingies. but when making bread, you have to feel the dough and then
see.

It's very rare that I mix one batch of bread and never add water or
flour, there's always a need for adjustment. But there I'm sure you'll
agree.

In the end, there are a lot of ways to make good bread,

That is very true. And I just think people sometimes are trying so
hard to find complicated ways to make their bread, while it can be so
simple. But that's just my feeling



Viince

On 26 Oct, 17:24, Joe Doe wrote:
In article . com,

viince wrote:

That's probably the problem with you

guys you just want to make everything more complicated than it really
is. Bread is bread, it's just flour water and salt. There is no big
secret, anybody can do it.

But
you don't need anybody's approval to make good bread, there are loads
of people making much better bread than Poilane.

Question for you: if bread is just water, flour and salt what factors
do you think allow some people to make much better bread than Poilane?

The question I have is what are the most important factors that would
contribute to a distinctive bread profile in your experience/opinion.

Roland

Good question.
I personally think the most important factors when making bread are
baking and fermentation.
Other important factors such as mixing, shaping, handling, slashing,
etc also contribute to the quality. But I think the baking makes the
biggest difference.

What allows people to make much better bread than Poilane is the
fermentation. For the baking good luck because the way they bake their
bread is very close to being the best. (The best I think is baking in
a black oven)

All this is just my opinion, I would love to discuss this with people
having different opinion, but we might have to start a new topic!

"viince" in message ups.com...
in response to the following question:
... what are the most important factors that would contribute
to a distinctive bread profile in your experience/opinion(?)
wrote:

What allows people to make much better bread than Poilane is the
fermentation.

That makes sense if Poilane is some kind of matzo cracker.

For the baking good luck because the way they bake their
bread is very close to being the best.

Now I am confused again. Whose/which is best? Just exactly
how do they bake it?

(The best I think is baking in a black oven)

Black ovens are the easiest to clean because you don't see the dirt.

All this is just my opinion, I would love to discuss this with people
having different opinion, but we might have to start a new topic!

Me, too, but I am still trying to figure out about the WMDs and other
similar issues. Well, the photo links are pretty easy to understand. But
the written parts, except about the black oven, are hard to understand.

--
Dicky

viince wrote:

But I think the baking makes the
biggest difference.

How about grain type? Wheat, spelt, kamut, rye and then flour type/ash
content.

I mean, what kind of question is this - most important factors? Once you
isolated them and know it all, what do you do?
Turn the knobs on the more important factors first or more - for what
purpose?

Or is this a philosophical question?

I'd say, the most important factor on bread is the baker - without
baker, no bread - period!

Then there is this:

the way they bake their
bread is very close to being the best.
Absolutely - it's always good to strive for perfection but who is the
judge for the perfect bread taste?

Sam