Hello everybody. Back again.

Well, here is the thing. I stopped making my bread for a while, turns out
my wife has some food allergie issues, and seeing as how she just really
loves my home baked sourdough bread and now cant eat anything with wheat or
gluten anymore, I have thusfar refrained from baking my bread. She wants me
to go ahead and bake for myself and friends, but I just cant fill the house
with fresh bread smells when she cant indulge. So far we have tried some of
the available gluten free breads from area markets and after a slice or two,
threw them out (horrid and pretty expensive too). Seem to be made mostly
from rice, tapioca and bean flour and starchs (potato & corn) along with
guar and xanthan gums, yeat and salt. Far cry from sourdough. But I am
hoping someone may have a suggestion for something we may try, I would like
to have bread on our table again, to enjoy -with- my wife. Her allergies
include wheat, gluten, eggs and dairy. She is avoiding oats as that contains
some gluten also.

Is any hope out there for us?

hutchndi

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:54:37 -0400, "hutchndi"
wrote:

Hello everybody. Back again.

Well, here is the thing. I stopped making my bread for a while, turns out
my wife has some food allergie issues, and seeing as how she just really
loves my home baked sourdough bread and now cant eat anything with wheat or
gluten anymore, I have thusfar refrained from baking my bread. She wants me
to go ahead and bake for myself and friends, but I just cant fill the house
with fresh bread smells when she cant indulge. So far we have tried some of
the available gluten free breads from area markets and after a slice or two,
threw them out (horrid and pretty expensive too). Seem to be made mostly
from rice, tapioca and bean flour and starchs (potato & corn) along with
guar and xanthan gums, yeat and salt. Far cry from sourdough. But I am
hoping someone may have a suggestion for something we may try, I would like
to have bread on our table again, to enjoy -with- my wife. Her allergies
include wheat, gluten, eggs and dairy. She is avoiding oats as that contains
some gluten also.

Is any hope out there for us?

hutchndi



I don't think you're going to be able to reproduce the sourdoughs
you're used to, but start he

http://www.celiac.com/st_main.html?p_catid=41

It gets a bit more complicated with your wife also being allergic to
dairy and eggs, but do start your searching amid the web pages that
offer celiac support.

Good luck.

Boron

Thanks. I have been visiting the celiac site. Guess I was kind of hoping
there is something out there like a sourdough that works with other flours.
Doubted it but you never know. I didnt think this was going to be easy in
any case. I guess any kind of rising is going to be tough with no gluten
anyways.

hutchndi

"Boron Elgar" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:54:37 -0400, "hutchndi"
wrote:

Hello everybody. Back again.

Well, here is the thing. I stopped making my bread for a while, turns
out
my wife has some food allergie issues, and seeing as how she just really
loves my home baked sourdough bread and now cant eat anything with wheat
or
gluten anymore, I have thusfar refrained from baking my bread. She wants
me
to go ahead and bake for myself and friends, but I just cant fill the
house
with fresh bread smells when she cant indulge. So far we have tried some
of
the available gluten free breads from area markets and after a slice or
two,
threw them out (horrid and pretty expensive too). Seem to be made mostly
from rice, tapioca and bean flour and starchs (potato & corn) along with
guar and xanthan gums, yeat and salt. Far cry from sourdough. But I am
hoping someone may have a suggestion for something we may try, I would
like
to have bread on our table again, to enjoy -with- my wife. Her allergies
include wheat, gluten, eggs and dairy. She is avoiding oats as that
contains
some gluten also.

Is any hope out there for us?

hutchndi



I don't think you're going to be able to reproduce the sourdoughs
you're used to, but start he

http://www.celiac.com/st_main.html?p_catid=41

It gets a bit more complicated with your wife also being allergic to
dairy and eggs, but do start your searching amid the web pages that
offer celiac support.

Good luck.

Boron

hutchndi wrote:
Thanks. I have been visiting the celiac site. Guess I was kind of hoping
there is something out there like a sourdough that works with other flours.
Doubted it but you never know. I didnt think this was going to be easy in
any case. I guess any kind of rising is going to be tough with no gluten
anyways.

hutchndi


There are different types of gluten. As you probably know - rye does
it's rising with pentosans (sugars) and the gluten in rye is different
from wheat's.

Immune responses to candida albicans can also be triggered by wheat
which apparently look similar when seen by immune system so, if somebody
has/had a candida albicans infection and eats wheat, the candida
albicans immune response kicks in.

S.

hutchndi wrote:

Is any hope out there for us?

Someone mentioned to me in a conversation recently about something else
that teff is a gluten-free grain.

So the Ethiopian injeera/injera, which is a sourdough may be a possibility.

B/

hutchndi wrote:
Is any hope out there for us?


I'll assume that this is a professional diagnosis and not a
self-diagnosis. I see lots of self-diagnosed celiac at the market, and
I am not sure why anyone would self-diagnose something so life
altering. Many of the symptoms can be caused by other, less life
complicating, things.

When I was starting up our bakery, I did some experiments with
gluten-free breads. In the end, we found that to sell gluten-free
breads, we'd have to have a separate gluten-free bakery. This was not a
justifiable expense for us, so we regretfully discontinued the
gluten-free experiments. I am willing to share the information from our
experiments.

We stopped our experiments about the time we were pursuing gluten-free
sourdough, so I haven't made gluten free sourdough, and can only give
some very broad guidelines. If you try it, please give me some feedback
so I can pass on your experiences to others who ask me about gluten free
sourdough.

I'd start with Bette Hagman's book, "The Gluten Free Gourmet Bakes
Bread." She has a number of excellent yeasted recipes in there that
taste like "real bread." Once you have a non-gluten flour mix that is
working for you, or some gluten-free bread recipes that work for you,
you are ready to try them out with sourdough. A cup of sourdough
starter can replace a packet of yeast pretty well, and then adjust the
flour and water in the recipe.

When I tried to make a gluten-free sourdough starter with rice flour it
was awful. I am not sure, but strongly suspect, that the
micro-organisms on flours other than rye or wheat are different. As a
result, I suggest starting a gluten free starter with a small amount of
an active wheat based sourdough starter. Say, a teaspoon of active
wheat starter with 1/2 cup of water and 3/4 cup of non-gluten flours.
12 hours later, take a teaspoon of that and again feed it with 1/2 cup
of water and 3/4 cup of non-gluten flour. At that point, settle down to
the more normal double the starter every 12 hour feeding.

While this scares some celiac/sprue sufferers, in 5 days, you'll have
less than 1 part in 10 million of wheat starter left. And less still
will be in the bread you make with that starter. This is WELL below the
limits any celiac/sprue association allows. And every time you feed
your starter, the amount left in it will further decrease.

I also have a few non-gluten references that I share with people after
our bakery experiments.

The first is a talk about celiac/sprue. Too many people are
self-diagnosed, and that's a tough thing to deal with, especially if
it's not really your health issue.
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/GlutenFree/doihaveit.html

The next is a general discussion about gluten free sourdough
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/GlutenFree/glutenfree.html

Next, here are some pointers to some gluten-free recipes that work
pretty well http://www.sourdoughhome.com/GlutenF...eerecipes.html

Finally, there is another overview of why be gluten free at
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/GlutenF...lutenfree.html

Again, please let me know how it turns out for you!

Thanks,
Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
What color is a chameleon on a mirror?

Wow thats alot of info, I am sure we will make use of it. Yes the diagnosis
is from medical tests, and she apparently does feel much better since
avoiding these foods. As I understand it, her digestive system was in the
process of breaking down from trying to deal with the wheat and gluten over
the years, the egg and dairy problems probably came on as secondary
symptoms, her weakened body growing less able to tolerate these items. I
would give her a really hard time about this if she self diagnosed any of
this, I am a pretty firm believer in "Whole Foods" or what my idea of that
term is, mostly derived from the book Nourishing Traditions and how this
"diet" has helped me.

This whole thing about gluen free foodstuffs having to be strictly from
cross-contamination proof bakeries blows my mind too. I understand my wife's
desire to be as alergen free as possible, but even without me baking
traditional bread, the house is full of more possible gluten sources than
any business that might have to put "this product is made in a place that
may have traces of wheat" on the lable. It is incredible as to how many
things have wheat flour in them for one, and even more surprising is the
things they seem to need to add gluten to.

Thanks again for all the info, I will be busy for the forseeable future....

hutchndi

"Mike Avery" wrote in message
news:mailman.11.1191003770.56908.rec.food.sourdoug ...
hutchndi wrote:
Is any hope out there for us?


I'll assume that this is a professional diagnosis and not a
self-diagnosis. I see lots of self-diagnosed celiac at the market, and
I am not sure why anyone would self-diagnose something so life
altering. Many of the symptoms can be caused by other, less life
complicating, things.

When I was starting up our bakery, I did some experiments with
gluten-free breads. In the end, we found that to sell gluten-free
breads, we'd have to have a separate gluten-free bakery. This was not a
justifiable expense for us, so we regretfully discontinued the
gluten-free experiments. I am willing to share the information from our
experiments.

We stopped our experiments about the time we were pursuing gluten-free
sourdough, so I haven't made gluten free sourdough, and can only give
some very broad guidelines. If you try it, please give me some feedback
so I can pass on your experiences to others who ask me about gluten free
sourdough.

I'd start with Bette Hagman's book, "The Gluten Free Gourmet Bakes
Bread." She has a number of excellent yeasted recipes in there that
taste like "real bread." Once you have a non-gluten flour mix that is
working for you, or some gluten-free bread recipes that work for you,
you are ready to try them out with sourdough. A cup of sourdough
starter can replace a packet of yeast pretty well, and then adjust the
flour and water in the recipe.

When I tried to make a gluten-free sourdough starter with rice flour it
was awful. I am not sure, but strongly suspect, that the
micro-organisms on flours other than rye or wheat are different. As a
result, I suggest starting a gluten free starter with a small amount of
an active wheat based sourdough starter. Say, a teaspoon of active
wheat starter with 1/2 cup of water and 3/4 cup of non-gluten flours.
12 hours later, take a teaspoon of that and again feed it with 1/2 cup
of water and 3/4 cup of non-gluten flour. At that point, settle down to
the more normal double the starter every 12 hour feeding.

While this scares some celiac/sprue sufferers, in 5 days, you'll have
less than 1 part in 10 million of wheat starter left. And less still
will be in the bread you make with that starter. This is WELL below the
limits any celiac/sprue association allows. And every time you feed
your starter, the amount left in it will further decrease.

I also have a few non-gluten references that I share with people after
our bakery experiments.

The first is a talk about celiac/sprue. Too many people are
self-diagnosed, and that's a tough thing to deal with, especially if
it's not really your health issue.
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/GlutenFree/doihaveit.html

The next is a general discussion about gluten free sourdough
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/GlutenFree/glutenfree.html

Next, here are some pointers to some gluten-free recipes that work
pretty well http://www.sourdoughhome.com/GlutenF...eerecipes.html

Finally, there is another overview of why be gluten free at
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/GlutenF...lutenfree.html

Again, please let me know how it turns out for you!

Thanks,
Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
What color is a chameleon on a mirror?

hutchndi wrote:

This whole thing about gluen free foodstuffs having to be strictly from
cross-contamination proof bakeries blows my mind too. I understand my wife's
desire to be as alergen free as possible, but even without me baking
traditional bread, the house is full of more possible gluten sources than
any business that might have to put "this product is made in a place that
may have traces of wheat" on the lable. It is incredible as to how many
things have wheat flour in them for one, and even more surprising is the
things they seem to need to add gluten to.

If you think wheat is bad, try avoiding hidden sources of corn starch or
protein! At least wheat is recognized and labeled as an allergen...

Dave

Well I first tried a non sourdough version, culled from the celiac
site, originally Maria's Real GF Light "Wheat" Bread

http://www.celiac.com/st_prod.html?p...36103509980.9e

slightly altered, substituted flax for eggs:



GF Bread Flour Mix (makes 9 cups = 3 loaves).

2 cups garbanzo-bean flour
1 cup sorghum flour
2 ¼ cups tapioca flour
2 ¼ cups arrowroot flour (starch)
1 cup rice flour
1 tablespoon potato starch
2 tablespoons potato flour
2 tablespoons xanthan gum
2 packages gelatin (unflavored)
¼ cup sugar
1 ½ teaspoon salt
Mix well and keep in an airtight container.

This was originally designed to bake at an altitude of 5000+ feet so
you may need to make adjustments. (I did not make any adjustments, I
did not know how. I live @ 15 feet elevation near a sal****er cove) if
anyone wants to advize me on this.


GF Light "Wheat" Bread:Mixing time: 15 minutes
Rising time: 20 minutes
Baking time 45 minutes
Grease an 8 ¼ x 4 ¼ bread pan with lard.
Preheat oven to 375F
In a large mixing bowl place:
2 eggs (I used 2 tablespoons fresh ground flax and 5 tablespoons water
2 Tablespoons olive oil
1 teaspoon apple cider vinegar
Dissolve: 1 ½ tablespoons of honey in 1 ¼ cup very warm water and set
aside.
In a bowl stir together:
3 cups GF Bread Flour Mix
2 teaspoons yeast
1 teaspoon baking powder
1/8 teaspoon citric acid.
Beat the egg (flax) mixture at high speed until foamy. Add the water
and honey mixture to the egg mixture and beat until it becomes foamy
again. Turn the speed low and add ½ cup of flour mix at a time (wait
for it to be absorbed before you add each ½ cup). After the flour mix
is added turn the mixer to high speed and beat for about 3 minutes.
The texture should be like cake batter. If it is too thick, add one
tablespoon of warm water at a time until it is the right consistency.
Spoon it immediately into the prepared pan and carefully smooth the
top. Cover with a plastic container or large lid to keep the
temperature even and put it in a warm place to rise (like on top of
your oven). Place it in the oven when the dough reaches to the top of
the pan (not higher - approximately 20 minutes). Bake for about 45
minutes at 375F. Brush the top with oil when it comes out of the oven
and let it totally cool on the rack. Store it in a plastic bag or an
airtight container. If you cannot eat all of it in 4-5 days it freezes
well.

This came out WAY better than any of the store bought GF breads we
have tried. No off flavors, fairly light, crust and crumb pretty fair.
I dont have a GF problem and I liked it. I dont have nay kind of dough
mixr, so it was whisk and spoon, I thought I was pretty adept with wet
doughs and stuck my hand in, it just about crawled up my arm like THE
BLOB. I found all the flours and even the xanthan gum pretty easily
nearby, but shelled out quite a few bucksfor the mostly 20 oz bags,
should be able to make bread for a while though.

Bette Hagman's book does have a few "sourdough" recipes, but call for
additional additions of yeast. Lots of good info on the various flours
though, and some interesting recipes and tips. No information anywhere
about "artisan" or simply hearth type breads, I really want to raise
dough in my bannetons and flop onto the hot tiles again, but seems
like nobody advises it. This is pretty pricey stuff to want to screw
up a loaf right now, maybe after I find a bulk seller and can get some
deals, I will be more willing to experiment, and move into sourdough.

hutchndi












On Sep 28, 2:28 pm, Mike Avery wrote:
hutchndi wrote:
Is any hope out there for us?

I'll assume that this is a professional diagnosis and not a
self-diagnosis. I see lots of self-diagnosed celiac at the market, and
I am not sure why anyone would self-diagnose something so life
altering. Many of the symptoms can be caused by other, less life
complicating, things.

When I was starting up our bakery, I did some experiments withgluten-freebreads. In the end, we found that to sellgluten-free
breads, we'd have to have a separategluten-freebakery. This was not a
justifiable expense for us, so we regretfully discontinued thegluten-freeexperiments. I am willing to share the information from our
experiments.

We stopped our experiments about the time we were pursuinggluten-free
sourdough, so I haven't madeglutenfreesourdough, and can only give
some very broad guidelines. If you try it, please give me some feedback
so I can pass on your experiences to others who ask me aboutglutenfree
sourdough.

I'd start with Bette Hagman's book, "TheGlutenFreeGourmet BakesBread." She has a number of excellent yeasted recipes in there that
taste like "realbread." Once you have a non-glutenflour mix that is
working for you, or somegluten-freebreadrecipes that work for you,
you are ready to try them out with sourdough. A cup of sourdough
starter can replace a packet of yeast pretty well, and then adjust the
flour and water in the recipe.

When I tried to make agluten-freesourdough starter with rice flour it
was awful. I am not sure, but strongly suspect, that the
micro-organisms on flours other than rye or wheat are different. As a
result, I suggest starting aglutenfreestarter with a small amount of
an active wheat based sourdough starter. Say, a teaspoon of active
wheat starter with 1/2 cup of water and 3/4 cup of non-glutenflours.
12 hours later, take a teaspoon of that and again feed it with 1/2 cup
of water and 3/4 cup of non-glutenflour. At that point, settle down to
the more normal double the starter every 12 hour feeding.

While this scares some celiac/sprue sufferers, in 5 days, you'll have
less than 1 part in 10 million of wheat starter left. And less still
will be in thebreadyou make with that starter. This is WELL below the
limits any celiac/sprue association allows. And every time you feed
your starter, the amount left in it will further decrease.

I also have a few non-glutenreferences that I share with people after
our bakery experiments.

The first is a talk about celiac/sprue. Too many people are
self-diagnosed, and that's a tough thing to deal with, especially if
it's not really your health issue. http://www.sourdoughhome.com/GlutenFree/doihaveit.html

The next is a general discussion aboutglutenfreesourdoughhttp://www.sourdoughhome.com/GlutenFree/glutenfree.html

Next, here are some pointers to somegluten-freerecipes that work
pretty wellhttp://www.sourdoughhome.com/GlutenFree/glutenfreerecipes.html

Finally, there is another overview of why beglutenfreeathttp://www.sourdoughhome.com/GlutenFree/whyglutenfree.html

Again, please let me know how it turns out for you!

Thanks,
Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
What color is a chameleon on a mirror?

"hutchndi" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well I first tried a non sourdough version, culled from the celiac
site, originally Maria's Real GF Light "Wheat" Bread

http://www.celiac.com/st_prod.html?p...rgDYI-36103509
980.9e

slightly altered, substituted flax for eggs:



GF Bread Flour Mix (makes 9 cups = 3 loaves).

2 cups garbanzo-bean flour
1 cup sorghum flour
2 ¼ cups tapioca flour
2 ¼ cups arrowroot flour (starch)
1 cup rice flour
1 tablespoon potato starch
2 tablespoons potato flour
2 tablespoons xanthan gum
2 packages gelatin (unflavored)
¼ cup sugar
1 ½ teaspoon salt
Mix well and keep in an airtight container.

This was originally designed to bake at an altitude of 5000+ feet so
you may need to make adjustments. (I did not make any adjustments, I
did not know how. I live @ 15 feet elevation near a sal****er cove) if
anyone wants to advize me on this.


GF Light "Wheat" Bread:Mixing time: 15 minutes
Rising time: 20 minutes
Baking time 45 minutes
Grease an 8 ¼ x 4 ¼ bread pan with lard.
Preheat oven to 375F
In a large mixing bowl place:
2 eggs (I used 2 tablespoons fresh ground flax and 5 tablespoons water
2 Tablespoons olive oil
1 teaspoon apple cider vinegar
Dissolve: 1 ½ tablespoons of honey in 1 ¼ cup very warm water and set
aside.
In a bowl stir together:
3 cups GF Bread Flour Mix
2 teaspoons yeast
1 teaspoon baking powder
1/8 teaspoon citric acid.
Beat the egg (flax) mixture at high speed until foamy. Add the water
and honey mixture to the egg mixture and beat until it becomes foamy
again. Turn the speed low and add ½ cup of flour mix at a time (wait
for it to be absorbed before you add each ½ cup). After the flour mix
is added turn the mixer to high speed and beat for about 3 minutes.
The texture should be like cake batter. If it is too thick, add one
tablespoon of warm water at a time until it is the right consistency.
Spoon it immediately into the prepared pan and carefully smooth the
top. Cover with a plastic container or large lid to keep the
temperature even and put it in a warm place to rise (like on top of
your oven). Place it in the oven when the dough reaches to the top of
the pan (not higher - approximately 20 minutes). Bake for about 45
minutes at 375F. Brush the top with oil when it comes out of the oven
and let it totally cool on the rack. Store it in a plastic bag or an
airtight container. If you cannot eat all of it in 4-5 days it freezes
well.

This came out WAY better than any of the store bought GF breads we
have tried. No off flavors, fairly light, crust and crumb pretty fair.
I dont have a GF problem and I liked it. I dont have nay kind of dough
mixr, so it was whisk and spoon, I thought I was pretty adept with wet
doughs and stuck my hand in, it just about crawled up my arm like THE
BLOB. I found all the flours and even the xanthan gum pretty easily
nearby, but shelled out quite a few bucksfor the mostly 20 oz bags,
should be able to make bread for a while though.

Bette Hagman's book does have a few "sourdough" recipes, but call for
additional additions of yeast. Lots of good info on the various flours
though, and some interesting recipes and tips. No information anywhere
about "artisan" or simply hearth type breads, I really want to raise
dough in my bannetons and flop onto the hot tiles again, but seems
like nobody advises it. This is pretty pricey stuff to want to screw
up a loaf right now, maybe after I find a bulk seller and can get some
deals, I will be more willing to experiment, and move into sourdough.

hutchndi

at that time, I will probably need to order some Carls OT and see if I can
convert it to rice or sourgum or bean flour, or something, need a powerful
batch of buggies for this stuff me thinks...

h