is it true that yeasts have trouble getting going when you make a
sponge in a metal bowl? I've noticed this occasionally in making
straight-dough breads, that when you do every step the same, sometimes
a metal bowl just seems to interfere with the yeast-awakening.

Has anyone else noticed this? is there a scientific justification for
all this that any of you know of?

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 17:05:38 -0000, raisethedead
wrote:

is it true that yeasts have trouble getting going when you make a
sponge in a metal bowl? I've noticed this occasionally in making
straight-dough breads, that when you do every step the same, sometimes
a metal bowl just seems to interfere with the yeast-awakening.

Has anyone else noticed this? is there a scientific justification for
all this that any of you know of?


I used a stainless bowl yesterday. One-third cup of starter (From an
SJD that was dried in 1992 sent to me by a gracious former SD poster)
and that I resurrected this week) to 4 cups Hecker's unbleached white
flour & enough water to make a sticky, though firm, dough. It spent
the day in the fridge and the night out on the counter. There was very
noticeable rise in the fridge and a more than doubling in size
overnight. It seemed happy in stainless.

It is now sitting in 3 bowls fermenting, one of them stainless.....

- miche made with half the sponge, some KA Artisan (which is a mix of
white, white WH and some ascorbic acid), whole wheat, corn meal, dark
rye, semolina, steel cut oats, spelt, and flax seeds. Salt, of course.
There are about 6 lbs of dough fermenting. This is in the stainless
bowl, happily crawling up the sides.

-pure white SD made of KA Artisan with water and salt. This was then
divided in half, so that I will make SD rolls with this half and .....

-the other half of the white was mixed with some olive oil, finely
chopped fresh rosemary. walnuts and olives. This is a real
experiment. We'll see what comes of it.

But I am surely superstitious enough that I keep my starters in glass
or Tupperware. I have no qualms about stirring them with spoons when I
refresh them, though I am more likely to use chopsticks. Anyway, I
don't have any small stainless containers to keep them in.

Boron

raisethedead wrote:
is it true that yeasts have trouble getting going when you make a
sponge in a metal bowl? I've noticed this occasionally in making
straight-dough breads, that when you do every step the same, sometimes
a metal bowl just seems to interfere with the yeast-awakening.

Has anyone else noticed this? is there a scientific justification for
all this that any of you know of?


No, it's just an old husband's tale. Sourdough is somewhat acidic, so
you don't want to use a base metal, but there is no problem starting or
maintaining a starter in stainless steel. And there is no problem
making dough in a stainless steel bowl.


Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Berber Saying Of The Day:
As the sands of the desert are to the weary traveller,
so is too much speech to him who loveth silence.

On 23 Sep, 18:05, raisethedead wrote:
is it true that yeasts have trouble getting going when you make a
sponge in a metal bowl? I've noticed this occasionally in making
straight-dough breads, that when you do every step the same, sometimes
a metal bowl just seems to interfere with the yeast-awakening.

Has anyone else noticed this? is there a scientific justification for
all this that any of you know of?

Since the acids in sourdough are organic you are more likely to have a
problem with plastic rather than metal but as long as it's food grade
you don't have to worry at all. I've always used metal spoons and both
metal and plastic bowls, I've never had a problem that wasn't related
something like bad feeding schedule.

Jim

On Sep 23, 4:03 pm, Mike Avery wrote:

No, it's just an old husband's tale. Sourdough is somewhat acidic...

I think the metal prohibition is rooted squarely in historical fact.
If we go back one or two hundred years, the metal bowls were copper,
tinned steel, or iron. Stainless vessels are relatively recent. So
this "old tale" has roots in good advice, since superseded by
materials technology.

On 2007-09-24, TG wrote:
Since the acids in sourdough are organic you are more likely to have a
problem with plastic rather than metal

What an interesting assertion.

but as long as it's food grade you don't have to worry at all.

Well, thank goodness for the FDA. Always watching our backs.

--
Randall

On 24 Sep, 14:48, Randall Nortman wrote:
On 2007-09-24, TG wrote:

Since the acids in sourdough are organic you are more likely to have a
problem with plastic rather than metal

What an interesting assertion.

but as long as it's food grade you don't have to worry at all.

Well, thank goodness for the FDA. Always watching our backs.

--
Randall

Randall if you're going to have a pop at least say something worth
saying. You may as well have said 'My mum says your mum is a hoe.'

Don't bother if you can't think of something to say.

Or are you saying that organic acids such as ethanoic acid attacks
metal as much or more than plastic? Or are you saying that the FDA has
something to do with it? Are you saying the FDA has something to do
with controlling the action of acids across the globe or indeed the
laws of physics as we know them? I don't know Randall it's all so
meaningless.

Jim

TG wrote:

..

Or are you saying that organic acids such as ethanoic acid attacks
metal as much or more than plastic? Or are you saying that the FDA has
something to do with it? Are you saying the FDA has something to do
with controlling the action of acids across the globe or indeed the
laws of physics as we know them? I don't know Randall it's all so
meaningless.

Jim

He is talking about Big Goverment taking care of everthing you do.

Joe Umstead

On 2007-09-26, TG wrote:
On 24 Sep, 14:48, Randall Nortman wrote:
On 2007-09-24, TG wrote:

Since the acids in sourdough are organic you are more likely to have a
problem with plastic rather than metal

What an interesting assertion.

but as long as it's food grade you don't have to worry at all.

Well, thank goodness for the FDA. Always watching our backs.

Randall if you're going to have a pop at least say something worth
saying. You may as well have said 'My mum says your mum is a hoe.'

Except that what I said was relevant to the content, even if I wasn't
adding any content myself (other than attitudinal content -- and let's
not underestimate the value of that, even if only for amusement).


Or are you saying that organic acids such as ethanoic acid attacks
metal as much or more than plastic?

I'm saying that your assertion was interesting to me. I'm not a
chemist, so I don't actually know. I hadn't heard that bit of
information anywhere else. I don't know whether or not to believe it,
as it was a bare assertion without any references or explanation. I
can certainly believe it would be true, but I also know that a hefty
chunk of the action of an acid has to do with free protons in
solution, and that doesn't matter whether the proton was donated by an
organic or inorganic molecule. You also seem to have contradicted
yourself by saying that there's more reason to worry about plastic
than metal but then immediately saying that as long as it's "food
grade" you don't need to worry at all. (Does ethanoic acid[1] consult
the FDA before attacking plastic, perhaps, as you suggest below?) So
I just don't know what to make of your assertion -- would you care to
educate us, or provide references to further reading? If not, that's
fine. You're not being paid for this, after all. But don't fault me
for not buying it right off the bat.


Or are you saying that the FDA has something to do with it? Are you
saying the FDA has something to do with controlling the action of
acids across the globe or indeed the laws of physics as we know
them?

I'm saying (by way of obvious sarcasm) that the FDA routinely fails to
protect the public[2] and I consider whether a material is
FDA-approved to be only a starting point in whether I consider it to
be safe for a given purpose.


I don't know Randall it's all so meaningless.

Why yes, it is; I'm sorry for your loss of faith. I advise you to
study the works of the French existential philosophers to get a better
handle on this unfortunate truth.


[1] Unless Wikipedia is mistaken, "ethanoic acid" would be another
(somewhat less common) name for acetic acid, which is how most folks
around here refer to vinegar when they want to sound edumacated. This
might be a good time to point out that vinegar will make short work of
quite a few metals and inorganic metallic compounds.

[2] I do not mean to insult any of the highly competant scientists
that work for them - bureaucracy, politics, and money always trump
good science.

--
Randall

Randall Nortman wrote:
On 2007-09-26, TG wrote:
On 24 Sep, 14:48, Randall Nortman wrote:
On 2007-09-24, TG wrote:

Since the acids in sourdough are organic you are more likely to have a
problem with plastic rather than metal
What an interesting assertion.

but as long as it's food grade you don't have to worry at all.
Well, thank goodness for the FDA. Always watching our backs.
Randall if you're going to have a pop at least say something worth
saying. You may as well have said 'My mum says your mum is a hoe.'

Except that what I said was relevant to the content, even if I wasn't
adding any content myself (other than attitudinal content -- and let's
not underestimate the value of that, even if only for amusement).

Well, well! TG, I do believe that Randall did indeed have quite a lot
worth saying. And this old man, pushing 82, has learned a coupla things,
which proves that one is never too old to learn! I was also amused by Mr
Nortman's restraint in his answer to your less than amusing prior post.
Certainly, life has changed, with the advent of newer technology and
materials that the original North American sourdough users would never
have imagined in their wildest dreams, away up there in the frozen north
hunting for that yeller stuff. So, they found out by trial and error
that a stone crock was good for their starter, while their gold pans
killed it! And there we have the start of the "old husbands" tale of
what wirks and wot dunt wirk! Sadly, it is still with us!
However, I recall a video on Sam's site, where he did a comparison of
glass and plastic. Perhaps only coincidental, but the starter in glass
was bigger than the one in plastic. So, there for what it is worth, is
my 2 cents!
Cheers,old Doug in BC

On 26 Sep, 14:38, Randall Nortman wrote:
On 2007-09-26, TG wrote:
....
I don't know Randall it's all so meaningless.

Why yes, it is; I'm sorry for your loss of faith. I advise you to
study the works of the French existential philosophers to get a better
handle on this unfortunate truth.

[1] Unless Wikipedia is mistaken, "ethanoic acid" would be another
(somewhat less co...., and money always trump
good science.

--
Randall

Ah I'm very aware of existentialism and nihilism one shouldn't throw
out the baby with the bath water though.

But going back to the other point. I'm afraid not being from the US
the irony was wasted on me. Perhaps being from the US that irony may
be wasted on you.

Ethanoic acid is at least descriptive of what is involved. I wasn't
trying to be clever by using that word it's just the one that came to
mind as I typed. Vinegar is too broad a term to have used, in fact
ethanoic acid is an ingredient in vinegar, it is not vinegar. It's
been along time since I was in a lab but unlike mineral acids Acetic
acid was never kept in plastic bottles.

Anyroad if you're sarcy you can't expect other to just take it lying
down.

Jim

On 26 Sep, 17:42, Doug Irv wrote:


Well, well! TG, I do believe that Randall did indeed have quite a lot
worth saying. And this old man, pushing 82, has learned a coupla things,
which proves that one is never too old to learn! I was also amused by Mr
Nortman's restraint in his answer to your less than amusing prior post.

Well if this were rec.humour.make.me.laugh. I might have instead of
giving the relevant information made a joke. I have better things to
do with my time than amuse you Doug.

Certainly, life has changed, with the advent of newer technology and
materials that the original North American sourdough users would never
have imagined in their wildest dreams, away up there in the frozen north
hunting for that yeller stuff. So, they found out by trial and error
that a stone crock was good for their starter, while their gold pans
killed it! And there we have the start of the "old husbands" tale of
what wirks and wot dunt wirk! Sadly, it is still with us!

Well they didn't have Stainless steel in them days Doug so they used
what they could. I think glass might have been too fragile and
expensive and plastic hadn't been invented. Imagine if we only did
things the way our ancestors did. You'd probably swinging from a tree
somewhere in the Congo.

However, I recall a video on Sam's site, where he did a comparison of
glass and plastic. Perhaps only coincidental, but the starter in glass
was bigger than the one in plastic.

Hmm, hardly science though is it? No disrespect to Sam.

Jim

TG wrote:

Well they didn't have Stainless steel in them days Doug so they used
what they could. I think glass might have been too fragile and
expensive...

Well, there was the Glass and Window taxes....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Tax
http://www.motherbedford.com/GlassTax.htm
http://www.etherzone.com/2002/rand090602.shtml

TG wrote:

Randall if you're going to have a pop at least say something worth
saying. You may as well have said 'My mum says your mum is a hoe.'

Which is possibly better than saying 'Your old man is a rake.'

Dave

Dave Bell wrote:
TG wrote:

Randall if you're going to have a pop at least say something worth
saying. You may as well have said 'My mum says your mum is a hoe.'

Which is possibly better than saying 'Your old man is a rake.'

Dave
Seeing as I live in BRITISH Columbia, Canada, I get the feeling, somehow
that our Mr. Jim is a LIMEY! Gadzooks, that even could excuse his "sense
of Hoooomer!" And this is just an example of my Canuck humour! We do
have the odd Limey living in this country....why I even have a bunch of
them as relatives in Surrey :-)! England, that is.
Back on topic, I did a sponge last night, which is setting up nicely,
will be ready to turn into bread about this evening.
Cheers, old Doug in BC