A Food and drink forum. FoodBanter.com

Welcome to FoodBanter.com forums which provide access to the finest food and drink related newsgroups.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most newsgroup discussions and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics to the food related newsgroups, communicate privately with other FoodBanter.com members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact support.

Go Back   Home » FoodBanter.com forum » Food and Cooking » Sourdough
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

Refrigerator Sourdough



 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 21-09-2007, 12:04 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 71
Default Refrigerator Sourdough

Just came across a rather novel (to me) idea -- starting a starter in
the refrigerator. This is as opposed to starting it at room
temperature, and only once it is solidly established and stable
putting it in the refrigerator for storage purposes. The dead-simple
process is described he

http://www.parc.com/apte/bread.shtml

It makes some sense -- you would of course end up with organisms that
are adapted to refrigerator temperatures, so there would be no
concerns about your starter culture getting out of whack from being
stored in the refrigerator. Presumably, organisms which are happy
enough to ferment slowly at refrigerator temperatures would not be
offended by being asked to leaven bread at room temperature, though
they might not be quite as speedy at it as organisms adapted to higher
temperatures. He does both bulk fermentation and final proof in the
fridge, though, with the loaf going in the oven cold. (Why not, if
your starter is so adapted?)

So it all makes sense, if it actually works. Has anybody tried this?
Any thoughts? I would personally be pretty happy to keep my starter
in the fridge all the time and feed less often. (Though the author of
the above claims that his barm will double in 24 hours even in the
fridge! I wonder if that means he has to feed it daily? The page is
scarce on such details.) It would, at any rate, eliminate tedious
adjustments to recipes and timings required by seasonal variations in
room temperature.

I suspect you end up with a yeast-heavy culture, since AFAIK there are
more cold-tolerant yeast than there are cold-tolerant LAB. That would
be bad news for people who want their sourdough to produce sour bread,
but good news for those looking for more mild flavors.

I think a test is in order. I'm off to put a fresh rye paste in the
fridge and see what happens.

--
Randall
Ads
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 21-09-2007, 12:53 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
Sam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 218
Default Refrigerator Sourdough


Good luck!

http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#061
http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#066

And no - I am not buying another larger fridge to ferment my bread stuff
in there which takes 24 hours to rise. Not even trying in my current
fridges.

"Matadero Creek Bakery" - hmmm..... try googling it.

The molds growing in my fridge are black, grey or pink.

Sam

Randall Nortman wrote:
Just came across a rather novel (to me) idea -- starting a starter in
the refrigerator. This is as opposed to starting it at room
temperature, and only once it is solidly established and stable
putting it in the refrigerator for storage purposes. The dead-simple
process is described he

http://www.parc.com/apte/bread.shtml


....


  #3 (permalink)  
Old 21-09-2007, 01:36 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 71
Default Refrigerator Sourdough

On 2007-09-20, Sam wrote:

Good luck!

http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#061
http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#066


I think the idea is you would get different strains. The strains
tested there were from room-temperature starters. Anyway, I have seen
dough rise in my 5C refrigerator before. Commercial yeast can
certainly do it, slowly.

"Matadero Creek Bakery" - hmmm..... try googling it.


Yeah, that's a little odd, but I know[1] this guy from the home
brewing scene, which is how I stumbled upon his baking page. He seems
to know his stuff when it comes to brewing. Whether or not he knows
sourdough remains to be seen. It is an easy enough experiment to try,
but I'm certainly not throwing out my room temperature starter any
time soon.

[1] "Know" in the sense of having seen posts from and references to
him in Internetland. Never actually met or interacted with him.

--
Randall
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 21-09-2007, 02:21 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
Sam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 218
Default Refrigerator Sourdough

Randall Nortman wrote:
[..]
I think the idea is you would get different strains. The strains
tested there were from room-temperature starters. Anyway, I have seen
dough rise in my 5C refrigerator before.

Sure - me too. But have you considered how long it takes for the inner
part of your dough to cool down? In particular if there are gas bubbles
providing some kind of insulation from the outside cold and the critters
creating some heat when working? Also - if there is some gas dissolved
in the dough and it cools, the gas may get free, with the gluten getting
stiffer on the outside when cooled holding gas better you may get good
rises when doing that even if the critters are going to sleep slowly.

You may get different strains - but which one's. Certainly not the
regular SD critters making good bread and for sure not high performing
with high germ counts. Around freezing, water based life goes to sleep
and gets ready to change into hibernating forms to survive.

There are the other kind of "starters" around, social sugar addicts with
names like Henry or whatever, to be fed and shared.

This whole project looks retarded (in a sense of great delay) - maybe
one gets special taste out of it? I doubt it though that one can get
anything out of this which cannot be gotten with room temperature
environment and keeping a job.
Commercial yeast can
certainly do it, slowly.


"Matadero Creek Bakery" - hmmm..... try googling it.


Yeah, that's a little odd, but I know[1] this guy from the home
brewing scene, which is how I stumbled upon his baking page. He seems
to know his stuff when it comes to brewing.

Yes - I looked briefly through the page:

Not to forget a "Must have" item according to this fridge SD retarding page:

IR thermometer. Should set you back --- maybe $ 50?

And - you can donate him a pH meter and he'll do the experimenting for you.

Go for it!

Sam


  #5 (permalink)  
Old 21-09-2007, 04:23 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 71
Default Refrigerator Sourdough

On 2007-09-21, Sam wrote:
[...]
You may get different strains - but which one's. Certainly not the
regular SD critters making good bread and for sure not high performing
with high germ counts.

[...]

Only one way to know. This will cost me fridge space for one small
jar, a couple hundred grams of rye, and a few minutes of attention in
total. I'll report back in a couple of weeks one way or another.

--
Randall
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 21-09-2007, 01:46 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 441
Default Refrigerator Sourdough

On Sep 20, 6:04 pm, Randall Nortman
wrote:

I would personally be pretty happy to keep my starter
in the fridge all the time and feed less often...


And what if you didn't have a "fridge" . The medieval bakers managed
somehow...

You could mix your storage starter really firm. Then it would go for 3
or 4 days at room temperature. Doesn't take much... a piece of hard
dough the size of a walnut works for me.


  #7 (permalink)  
Old 21-09-2007, 02:57 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 556
Default Refrigerator Sourdough


"Randall Nortman" wrote in message

[ ... ]


It makes some sense -- you would of course end up with organisms that
are adapted to refrigerator temperatures, so there would be no
concerns about your starter culture getting out of whack from being
stored in the refrigerator ...


Most people store their starters in the fridge for the reason that
microorganisms grow more slowly there, and do not need frequent
feeding therefore. It has been frequently observed that dough will rise
in the fridge, if for no other reason that it takes a while for it to cool
down.

But if you should succeed to get a cold-working fast-rising leavener,
make sure you get a patent so you can sell it to the eskimos. After
that, there is the problem of low-temperature baking, of general
interest in a fuel-deficient world.

--
Dicky
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 21-09-2007, 03:13 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 398
Default Refrigerator Sourdough

Will wrote:
And what if you didn't have a "fridge" . The medieval bakers managed
somehow...

Bakers, by the nature of their business, tend to bake every day. Since
bread was the staff of life in those days, a bake everyday was the order
of the day.

In some areas, housewives tended to bake for their families once a week
- when they could use the communities oven. So, with the right to use
the oven, the town's starter was passed from person to person.

My experience is that starters are happier when they are used, as
opposed to being refrigerated. Sadly, that doesn't really fit into most
people's schedules

Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
These three
Prevent most accidents
Courtesy
Caution
Common sense
Burma-Shave
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 21-09-2007, 07:47 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default Refrigerator Sourdough

Good luck!

http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1...t1-4n.html#066


Thumbing through Hammelmann's book, I noted him paraphrasing Calvel
that at regular fridge temps the yeasts in sourdoughs die off, this
being unfavorable in thier opinion. Others--Reinhardt, Wing, et al.--
claim a slow down and even dormancy but make no claim to the yeast die
off, nor to any negative consequences of retarding at those low
temps.

I don't have at my disposal any way to verify the yeast types and
viabilities in the culture I use, but I do store it at those temps, as
well as retard doughs similarly, both in bulk fermentation and in
final form, in varying combination. And, though I'm generally
satisfied with the outcomes, I'm curious to know the facts that might
lead to greater planning and improvement of the bread.

Perhaps off the main subject, seemingly there is another contradiction
worth noting between Hammelmann and Wing. Hammelmann claims the
temperatures at which starch swells and gels in rye is different than
that of wheat, claiming the lower temps of this for rye allow the
amylase enzymes to subsequently cause "starch attack." Whereas Wing
claims that it is the enzymes in the rye that are not heat unstable
like that of wheat.

Any information that might lead to clarity on any of this? I'm going
to Sam's page now to search for same, as well as information regarding
his proofing box.

-Erich

  #10 (permalink)  
Old 22-09-2007, 08:38 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default Refrigerator Sourdough

On Sep 21, 11:47 am, "
wrote:
Good luck!


http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1...samartha.net/S...


Thumbing through Hammelmann's book, I noted him paraphrasing Calvel
that at regular fridge temps the yeasts in sourdoughs die off, this
being unfavorable in thier opinion. Others--Reinhardt, Wing, et al.--
claim a slow down and even dormancy but make no claim to the yeast die
off, nor to any negative consequences of retarding at those low
temps.


Correction. Hammelmann QUOTED Calvel to the effect that some of the
microflora is destroyed at refridgeration temps, ruining the flavor of
the bread. The statement regarding destruction of sourdough yeasts,
however, was attributed another baker whose title was given as MASTER
rather than PROFESSOR. But the question of fact remains.

My apologies for the error.

-Erich

 




Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.SEO by vBSEO 3.2.0
Copyright 2004-2014 FoodBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.