With some breads with various additatives, I am getting a strong first rise,
more than 100% increase, but with the second only get 25-50%. I have let the
second rise sit for a long time to see if anything happens and nothing does.
Up until letting them fall even to see the extremes. I have also tried
putting them in early to see if I could push them with no effect.

These are breads made with a starter which has been fed, then used in a 1
cup flour and 1 cup water mix which rises and slightly falls, then is mixed
to completion and rises very well the first time, but the second does little
or nothing. I thought I might be letting it rise too long the first time
but I have tried shortening the rise (it isn't close to falling anyway) but
this has no effect either.

So anyway what I am wondering is what kind of additatives can you add to
bread to have this effect, I don't think it is anything to do with the
kneading or punching back (which is more like pushing + light kneading), as
it works fine in regular whole wheat or white flour breads. However what
should be consider here as a possible problem?

--
Cliff Stamp
http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:05:43 +0000, sstam wrote:

With some breads with various additatives, I am getting a strong first rise,
more than 100% increase, but with the second only get 25-50%.

Additives? Spock, ...explain!

You might want to get more aggressive with your 'punching back'.

Also do you really need a second rise? With sourdough, unlike other bread
making, you have to really watchout for the structual degradation of the
gluten. Usually this is what's happening when your oh-so-perfect dough starts
turning into mush from hell, or iow, it seems more liquidy. When this
happenes the dough won't hold the gases needed to rise. So it may be
that during the second rise acidity is breaking down your dough.