I am wondering what resources-books/websites-you'd recommend for a
beginner. Something that educates me both about "how" to make
sourdough, and also "why" I am making it like I am--both chemically,
and historically.

Also, I am confused about soured dough and yeast. Was soured dough
originally a replacement for yeast, or were both used? Because in my
recipe books I am surprised to see that the recipes call for both
soured dough and yeast. Is this always the case?

Thank you.

wrote in message ups.com...
I am wondering what resources-books/websites-you'd recommend for a
beginner. Something that educates me both about "how" to make
sourdough, and also "why" I am making it like I am--both chemically,
and historically.

Experience continues to prove that one does things like one's mom did.
One continues to do that, no matter what.

Also, I am confused about soured dough and yeast. Was soured dough
originally a replacement for yeast, or were both used? Because in my
recipe books I am surprised to see that the recipes call for both
soured dough and yeast. Is this always the case?

Not good to do that. Toss out the recipe books.

Sourdough predates bakers' yeast by millenia.

Here is a good place to start learning about sourdough:
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html
Not that it will do any good.

As far as chemistry is concerned, there is an r.f.s. poster
who discusses that from time to time, but nobody can guess
what he is talking about.

--
Dicky

Experience continues to prove that one does things like one's mom did.
One continues to do that, no matter what.

I love my mom....

As far as chemistry is concerned, there is an r.f.s. poster
who discusses that from time to time, but nobody can guess
what he is talking about.

I am a physicist, but I can read chemistry if I have to.

"r" wrote in message ...
Experience continues to prove that one does things like one's mom did.
One continues to do that, no matter what.

I love my mom....

Sure you do. Betcha she makes bread with bakers' yeast, even
so-called "sourdough", that is, if she makes bread at all, 'cause
she is probably buying at the supermarket. And so will you --
the irrational influence of moms cannot be underestimated.

I am a physicist, but I can read chemistry if I have to.

Yeah, but can you do chemistry? Can you fluff up old sourdough
for pancakes with sodium bicarbonate, and explain why that works?
Can you deal equally well with Celsius and Fahrenheit. Can you
calibrate your oven thermostat? Can you determine how much flour
an 8-fluid-ounce measuring cup holds. Here is a good test for the
physicist in you: how many grams of water does an 8-fluid-ounce
measuring cup contain?

Just checkin' up!

--
Dicky

On Aug 11, 2:06 pm, wrote:
I am wondering what resources-books/websites-you'd recommend for a
beginner. Something that educates me both about "how" to make
sourdough, and also "why" I am making it like I am--both chemically,
and historically.

Here are two web-sites that will get you started. You will find dough
calculators, starter and fermentation information, pictures... Mike's
site "sourdoughhome" has some excellent video on mixing and shaping
techniques. I highly recommend the stretch and fold technique, for
example, in lieu of machine kneading. But that technique is only one
of many nuggets in these two sites. Between them, you should be able
to get 95% of the info you seek. They are better than most of the
books out there.

http://samartha.net/SD/

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.html


Also, I am confused about soured dough and yeast. Was soured dough
originally a replacement for yeast, or were both used? Because in my
recipe books I am surprised to see that the recipes call for both
soured dough and yeast. Is this always the case?

Sourdough starter and grocery store yeast are both dough leavens.
Sourdough is ancient. The commercial yeast has been popular for less
than a hundred years. Many bakeries make breads using both.

In my opinion, sourdough starter produces the best flavor... but
that's not because sourdough is inherently better as a leavener. And
it is also not true that the bread will be sour. The fermentation is
slower though and as in cheese making, or wine making, slower
production processes tend to develop more complex flavors.

There is a book called "The Bread Builders" that has an excellent
discussion on the chemistry of fermentation. You can probably find it
at your library (or Google it). It also has information on oven
building... which might not be directly applicable to your interest
but will give good insight on the "tradition" of bread making. Bread
is a curious window, as it were, on technology and culture.

wrote:
I am wondering what resources-books/websites-you'd recommend for a
beginner. Something that educates me both about "how" to make
sourdough, and also "why" I am making it like I am--both chemically,
and historically.

Also, I am confused about soured dough and yeast. Was soured dough
originally a replacement for yeast, or were both used? Because in my
recipe books I am surprised to see that the recipes call for both
soured dough and yeast. Is this always the case?

Thank you.


I also was a bit confused about the recipes that called for both
sourdough starter and commercial yeast. I think it is the other way
around though, the commercial yeast is a convenient replacement for
sourdough starter.

SD starter is not really consistent with rise times. Mine can take as
little as 45 minutes some days and up to 4 or more hours others. I
think it depends on how 'lively' I make my starer before using (and the
weather), so going with a 3 or 4 stage grow over 24 hours before use
gets it just a foaming away which makes for a 'fast' rise.

Adding a commercial yeast to this 'starter' doesn't really do much
unless it 'maybe' stabilizes the rise time, But I have tried it both
ways several times and don't think the commercial yeast even grows well
if at all in the active sourdough.

If I follow the book recipe that only calls for one overnight 'souring'
of some flour and water, then commercial yeast is needed. This is not
the same as using a 'sourdough starter', I think this is just for some
'sour' taste.

I have gotten to the point now where I follow the 'basic' recommendation
of one cookbook, 'The Joy of Cooking' where it says I can use two cups
of sourdough starter in place of one commercial yeast cake or packet and
it's cup of water in any recipe that calls for yeast. (my starter
is/seems a bit drier than theirs and needs a half cup of water to match
that for mixing volumes)

I am having great fun using it that way and my 'market' (family and
boarders) like my 'experiments' too. I still do make nice fluffy plain
old white bread and rolls with commercial yeast as a change up, but make
all our bread products these days and like variety.

I found this site helpful: http://samartha.net/index.html

He deals mostly with rye, but the methods for the starter are the same
and the links are good reading.

My $0.02,

Mike

Mike Romain wrote:

SD starter is not really consistent with rise times. Mine can take as
little as 45 minutes some days and up to 4 or more hours others. I
think it depends on how 'lively' I make my starer before using (and the
weather), so going with a 3 or 4 stage grow over 24 hours before use
gets it just a foaming away which makes for a 'fast' rise.
I find that (my) starter(s), when run in a more controlled environment
(temperature, hydration, time), run like clockwork.

Since I am doing the DM-3 process, I find the resulting starter having
the same quality every time. There may be nuances I am missing, but the
rise times are the same and the final product as well.

I made a couple of pictures to help a friend:

http://tinyurl.com/yry9fh
(will stay a limited time there)

That's 40/60 rye/wheat, 68 % hydration, intended 2 + 2 h rising, real
2:45 + 1:55 h.

I may have the dough development better down, but from a starter/dough
fermentation time perspective, nothing noticeable has changed for me
during the 4+ years I am using the DM-3 now.

Based on that, I would think that your variations are caused by your
handling and not on the starter itself - and you say yourself that it
all depends how "lively" you make your starter - you _making_, not the
starter being "not really consistent".

Don't blame the holey starter;-)

Samartha

Mike Romain wrote:

SD starter is not really consistent with rise times. Mine can take as
little as 45 minutes some days and up to 4 or more hours others. I
think it depends on how 'lively' I make my starer before using (and the
weather), ...

It would only be inconsistent if the same variable didn't produce the
same rise time.

B/

On Aug 12, 9:48 am, Mike Romain wrote:

SD starter is not really consistent with rise times. Mine can take as
little as 45 minutes some days and up to 4 or more hours others.

That would make me absolutely nuts... do you hang out and watch it?

My starter is much more respectful. :-)

On 12 Aug 2007, at 17:24, Brian Mailman wrote:

Mike Romain wrote:

SD starter is not really consistent with rise times. Mine can
take as
little as 45 minutes some days and up to 4 or more hours others. I
think it depends on how 'lively' I make my starer before using
(and the
weather), ...

It would only be inconsistent if the same variable didn't produce the
same rise time.

B/

Lol, exactly Brian, Mine is totally reliable, I can get exactly the
same bread no matter what the weather, but then having spent time to
listen to the experts, taken good notes and taken into account the
temperature that day might have something to do with that. Going
blind does tend to produce a few surprises. : -)

Jim

Sam wrote:


Based on that, I would think that your variations are caused by your
handling and not on the starter itself - and you say yourself that it
all depends how "lively" you make your starter - you _making_, not the
starter being "not really consistent".

Don't blame the holey starter;-)

Samartha



Could easily be my handling and environment, I don't 'weigh' out
ingredients and don't always have the same amount of starter saved to
start over with or even the same kind of water.

I think the unpredictability is part of the fun of making SD bread.

My kitchen varies from 70 to well over 100 degrees during the/each day
and the humidity here can be 100% some days with 40% normal these days.
It varies hourly here in the bottom of the Great Lakes Basin.

Some days I feed my starter when it comes out of the fridge a cup of
flour and a little over a half cup of water and it starts growing in an
hour or two and the next feeds continue to be 'fast'. Some days it
doesn't do anything for 4 or more hours and consecutive feeds will be
slower rises too.

I gave up trying to hurry it, I just make white bread if needed in a
hurry, and even give it an extra feed if it comes faster than I need it,
so I 'am' getting more 'stable' effects but still. I think the
unpredictability is part of the fun of making SD bread.

Your above results were even off in 'expected rises'.

I also find that the water I use makes a difference in rise times with
tap water taking a 'long' time some days. (high chlorine content)
Bottled plain spring water seems best. Just tried 'ozonized' spring
water my wife brought home and it was 'really' slow. Enh, just went and
read the label on it and they stuck 1 mg of chlorine per liter in it,
figures...

Still learning for sure...

Mike

Brian Mailman wrote:
Mike Romain wrote:

SD starter is not really consistent with rise times. Mine can take as
little as 45 minutes some days and up to 4 or more hours others. I
think it depends on how 'lively' I make my starer before using (and
the weather), ...

It would only be inconsistent if the same variable didn't produce the
same rise time.

B/

My variables aren't the same from batch to batch for sure.

I should better have said, 'my results with SD starter' vary.

Sometimes it can be consistent if I am baking regular and the starter
stays in a crock on the counter, but put the stuff in the fridge for a
while or use different water even and...

Mike

Will wrote:
On Aug 12, 9:48 am, Mike Romain wrote:

SD starter is not really consistent with rise times. Mine can take as
little as 45 minutes some days and up to 4 or more hours others.

That would make me absolutely nuts... do you hang out and watch it?

My starter is much more respectful. :-)


Worse than watching toast....

At least I know at the first feeding when 'that' batch is going to be
ready because a fast one goes sponge fast from the first feed out of the
fridge and the slow one starts slow and stays that way for at least 4
feeds it would seem.

I just had a real slow one so I made white bread. Strange one too, it
didn't bubble much for a day and a half, then exploded all over the
counter last night. LOL!

My rye SD starter was slower than usual a few days ago too.

I found out that the 'pure spring' water I thought I was using is
ozonized and has 1 mg of Chlorine per liter/quart of water in it.

Mike

Mike Romain wrote:
Brian Mailman wrote:
Mike Romain wrote:

SD starter is not really consistent with rise times. Mine can take as
little as 45 minutes some days and up to 4 or more hours others. I
think it depends on how 'lively' I make my starer before using (and
the weather), ...

It would only be inconsistent if the same variable didn't produce the
same rise time.

My variables aren't the same from batch to batch for sure.

I should better have said, 'my results with SD starter' vary.

My point is is that the variations are consistent.

B/

wrote in message ups.com...
I am wondering what resources-books/websites-you'd recommend for a
beginner. ...

I think she is gone now. (I think she is a she.) (We used to think that
about Samartha, but were wrong because of misreading an "r" for an "n".
Good he's changing to Sam.)

It was a very ambitious idea to try to interest her in Detmold 3-stage to
start. Deep in my heart I continue to hope that such things can come to
be possible. She has a type of name that suggests that she could be
subverted to such a thing.

I would have suggested to start with the Lumpy Muffins thing:
http://lumpymuffins.home.comcast.net...h/NoWaste.html
or Sam's Wu Wei thing:
http://samartha.net/SD/images/BYDATE...-05/index.html
but admittedly I am a person of weak faith. Probably too late now.

--
Dicky