Dick Adams wrote:
wrote in message ups.com...

I am wondering what resources-books/websites-you'd recommend for a
beginner. ...


I think she is gone now. (I think she is a she.) (We used to think that
about Samartha, but were wrong because of misreading an "r" for an "n".
Good he's changing to Sam.)

It was a very ambitious idea to try to interest her in Detmold 3-stage to
start.
Tell you what - If I had started with the DM-3 right from scratch, it
would have saved me a lot of time to make the breads I am doing now. But
- all this other tinkering around exposed me to other quirks which I
would never have seen otherwise.
Deep in my heart I continue to hope that such things can come to
be possible.
Fulfilling one of your hearts desi

1 - container
2 - aquarium heater 94 F, 34 C, 250 W
3 - fountain pump
4 - digital thermometer
5 - digital scale
What does that total up to? 1 - $8, 2 - $ 30, 3 - $ 10, 4 - $ 20, 5 - $ 30

So - you are actually a hell of a lucky guy - for spending less than 100
bucks, one can fulfill one of your heart's desires.

Looks kinda cheap, does your lady know about this - your cheapo heart's
desires?
She has a type of name that suggests that she could be
subverted to such a thing.

I would have suggested to start with the Lumpy Muffins thing:
http://lumpymuffins.home.comcast.net...h/NoWaste.html
or Sam's Wu Wei thing:
http://samartha.net/SD/images/BYDATE...-05/index.html
but admittedly I am a person of weak faith. Probably too late now.


I think hat's really good.
All this faith stuff - isn't that about believing something without
solid proof?
So - all that would be not knowing for sure.
With sourdough (and Wu-Wei) it's very little believing - actually none.
That's solid experience.
If the bread tastes great, you know it (or your wife tells you). If it
does not rise - you don't have believe that it's not rising, you know
it, when you see it - or not, in this case. No question of faith or
believing. Actually the less, the better in this case - saves you a lot
of trouble.

As for suggesting to a "noobie" the DM-3. I am trying to help somebody
to get started and - I hear: "that's not how a starter should look
like, I put more water in so it looks right". That's faith and
believing. Faith that this is right and believing it will work and solve
the problem of lack of rise and sourness.
No such thing with the DM-3 - how it "should" look never comes up. It is
done as prescribed and works.

I am all for suggesting to "noobies" the DM-3. If temp cannot be
completely controlled, at least, the hydrations and fermentation times
can be met or approximated. It gives great exposure to different
hydration looks of a starter and the factors which influence starter
growth and quality. That's definitely a great progress over the "triple
three times", the "wait until it has peaked, then use it", "wait until
it gets active, then use it" or the "it feels right, now I make bread"
methods I have used.

So -


Sam

On 13 Aug 2007, at 05:50, Sam wrote:

...
All this faith stuff - isn't that about believing something without
solid proof?

Only in some forms of Christianity. Hence the need for the phrase
'blind faith'. To the rest of the world it's about knowing someone or
something to be reliable from past, personal experience. Like knowing
the bridge you're about to cross won't fall when you get to the
middle because you or someone you trust has done it a hundred times
or you've seen the structural test. 'Blind faith' would be like
crossing a bridge you or no one you know has experience of just
because it makes you feel better believing it to be safe. Blind faith
would be like signing away $200,000 on an apartment you've never seen
based solely on the guy selling it to you having a nice face and a
charming way about him. That's crazy. Faith is understanding that the
practices you are doing lead to happiness because of previous
experience and that reason and experience tell you that happiness and
hatred are mutually exclusive. If I want to be happy it makes no
sense to practice hatred I can use reason and logic to give me faith
that the teacher is giving good teaching.

So - all that would be not knowing for sure.
With sourdough (and Wu-Wei) it's very little believing - actually
none.
That's solid experience.
If the bread tastes great, you know it (or your wife tells you).
So you need faith in your wife's and in your own judgement.

If it
does not rise - you don't have [to] believe that it's not rising,
you know
it,

Actually you still have to have faith, faith in the true perception
of the previous mind, the mind that experienced the state of the
dough at that pervious moment, you can't 'know' a previous moment,
any previous moment is merely a construction of your mind, a memory,
you need faith in your own mind in order to get out of bed in the
morning, faith that you did have a floor there the night before when
you got in and faith that you did actually see a floor there a moment
ago when you looked down and faith that your toe is actually feeling
a floor there when you decide to put your weight on it. You don't
'know' for sure at all. It's all faith.

when you see it - or not, in this case. No question of faith or
believing. Actually the less, the better in this case - saves you a
lot
of trouble. ...

Unless you have direct perception of the said things. Direct
perception being bypassing all the confusion of the emotions and
projections of the ordinary mind like seeing a snake when in fact
it's a coiled rope or seeing a cat rather than a bag caught by the
wind. Movement of any kind is an illusion, a construction of the mind
so you must have faith in the past perception of the previous mind
moment in combination with the next mind moment to 'see' any rise in
the dough. It is all about faith. If you ever misunderstood anything
or tipped over a crack in the pavement you can be sure or have faith
that you don't have direct perception.

Jim

"Jim" wrote in message news:mailman.2.1187009320.30441.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
On 13 Aug 2007, at 05:50, Sam wrote:
... All this faith stuff - isn't that about believing something without
solid proof?

Only in some forms of Christianity. Hence the need for the phrase
'blind faith'. To the rest of the world it's about knowing someone or
something to be reliable from past, personal experience ...

(etc., etc., etc., ...)

{bla, bla, blooper, blabla ...)

(extensive!)

Hey, Jim, maybe it is time for you to start a Church or a Cult??!

For those who do not know it, I have been discussing my faith on
my blog http://www.prettycolors.com/dickya/blosxom.cgi. Look
there for inspiration. Comments and complaints to dick dot adams
at att dot net, NOT to r.f.s. (this newsgroup), please.

--
Dicky

Jim wrote:
On 12 Aug 2007, at 17:24, Brian Mailman wrote:

Mike Romain wrote:

SD starter is not really consistent with rise times. Mine can take as
little as 45 minutes some days and up to 4 or more hours others. I
think it depends on how 'lively' I make my starer before using (and the
weather), ...

It would only be inconsistent if the same variable didn't produce the
same rise time.

B/

Lol, exactly Brian, Mine is totally reliable, I can get exactly the same
bread no matter what the weather, but then having spent time to listen
to the experts, taken good notes and taken into account the temperature
that day might have something to do with that.


Going blind does tend to produce a few surprises. : -)

Well Jim, it sure produces a few surprise answers to posts, 'that's' for
sure.... ;-)

I was talking about 'rise times', NOT the 'same bread' or some variant.

The weather here yesterday at 1:00 PM was 31C and 43% humidity. By 3:00
or so it was 20C and 89% humidity.

My bread still turned out nice, although it was a long rise....

Mike

On 13 Aug 2007, at 14:46, Dick Adams wrote:

Hey, Jim, maybe it is time for you to start a Church or a Cult??!

There's only two small problems there Dick, 1. I don't believe in
god. 2, I don't believe that any one person can own the understanding
of reality. If it's there to be understood then anyone with the
inclination, a little brainpower and enough time can discover it for
themself. Oh, 3. I don't need the money. : -)

Jim

On 13 Aug 2007, at 17:13, Mike Romain wrote:

Going blind does tend to produce a few surprises. : -)

Well Jim, it sure produces a few surprise answers to posts,
'that's' for
sure.... ;-)

I was talking about 'rise times', NOT the 'same bread' or some
variant.

The weather here yesterday at 1:00 PM was 31C and 43% humidity. By
3:00
or so it was 20C and 89% humidity.

My bread still turned out nice, although it was a long rise....

Mike

: -) Good to hear it.

Jim

I love my mom....

Sure you do. Betcha she makes bread with bakers' yeast, even so-called
"sourdough", that is, if she makes bread at all, 'cause she is probably
buying at the supermarket. And so will you -- the irrational influence of
moms cannot be underestimated.

I LOVE MY MOM! But I do not blindly follow her example. I doubt mom ever
made sourdough.

I am a physicist, but I can read chemistry if I have to.

Yeah, but can you do chemistry? Can you fluff up old sourdough for pancakes
with sodium bicarbonate, and explain why that works?

Yes

Can you deal equally well with Celsius and Fahrenheit.?

Yes

Can you calibrate your oven thermostat?

Yes.

Can you determine how much flour an 8-fluid-ounce measuring cup holds.

Yes, but why bother. It is so much easier to just weigh the stuff.

Here is a good test for the physicist in you: how many grams of water does
an 8-fluid-ounce measuring cup contain?

Gee, I feel like I am back in school! Since I am a smart-a** physicist, I
will ask -- at what temperature?

Nice to meet another crumudgeon,

Ice

"Ice" wrote in message om...
... Can you determine how much flour an 8-fluid-ounce
measuring cup holds.

Yes, but why bother. It is so much easier to just weigh the stuff.

Trust me. For a few loaves it is easier to scoop than weigh. Well,
unless you get flour in little dinky bags. Weighing can make you
feel important and impress onlookers.

Here is a good test for the physicist in you: how many grams of
water does an 8-fluid-ounce measuring cup contain?

... Since I am a smart-a** physicist, I will ask -- at what temperature?

What temperature do you suppose, smart-a**? Suppose you were
10°F. away from that -- how much difference would it make?

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:

Here is a good test for the physicist in you: how many grams of
water does an 8-fluid-ounce measuring cup contain?

... Since I am a smart-a** physicist, I will ask -- at what temperature?

I'm curious to see how this pans out.
From all I've found, it depends upon who you ask!

Dave

On 14 Aug 2007, at 04:25, Dick Adams wrote:

... Weighing can make you
feel important and impress onlookers.

They'd have to be pretty thick Dicky to be impressed by pushing a
button and reading a number. Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong
crowd.

Jim

On 14 Aug 2007, at 04:46, Dave Bell wrote:

Here is a good test for the physicist in you: how many grams of
water does an 8-fluid-ounce measuring cup contain?

... Since I am a smart-a** physicist, I will ask -- at what
temperature?

I'm curious to see how this pans out.
From all I've found, it depends upon who you ask!

Dave


Which bit Dave? The weight of pure, simple H2O at a given temperature
and place isn't up for debate, it is what it is, especially if we're
counting molecules.

Jim

What temperature do you suppose, smart-a**? Suppose you were
10°F. away from that -- how much difference would it make?

Not much, but it got me out of doing the work for a while!

When you answer that question, I have two others grin
Ice

Yes, but why bother. It is so much easier to just weigh the stuff.

Trust me. For a few loaves it is easier to scoop than weigh. Well,
unless you get flour in little dinky bags. Weighing can make you
feel important and impress onlookers.

I don't know you well enough to trust you. I never make more than a few
loaves, and since I live alone there are no onlookers to impress, other than
myself, and I do not impress that easily.

I do what works for me. And I am at heart lazy, so I do what takes the
least amount of effort.

Ice wrote:
What temperature do you suppose, smart-a**? Suppose you were
10°F. away from that -- how much difference would it make?

could be 400 %

http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#060
Not much, ...


sure...
When you answer that question, I have two others grin
Ice

Jim wrote:
On 14 Aug 2007, at 04:46, Dave Bell wrote:

Here is a good test for the physicist in you: how many grams of
water does an 8-fluid-ounce measuring cup contain?

... Since I am a smart-a** physicist, I will ask -- at what
temperature?

I'm curious to see how this pans out.
From all I've found, it depends upon who you ask!

Dave


Which bit Dave? The weight of pure, simple H2O at a given temperature
and place isn't up for debate, it is what it is, especially if we're
counting molecules.

Jim
The bit about volume of a "fluid ounce" !
One would suppose 8 ounces * 28.35 grams, or 226.8 grams.
Conversion lists cite anywhere from 227 to 240 grams, far beyond
temperature dependencies. Even at 4 C, water isn't *that* dense!

Dave