Just getting into sourdough/starters. Followed "The Joy of
Cooking" recipe for natural sourdough starter, following the
recipe religiously. The first efforts were kind of bland to my
taste, but others have said, "WOW"!

Now the starter (never refrigerated) is a month or so old and
really produces excellent tasting bread - doesn't seem to matter
what brand of flour I feed it. Also never mind the recipe
anymore, I just go for "eyeball" consistency when I do feed it
(usually twice a day). Can't even seen to kill it when I forget
a feeding or two.

Anyway, I originally meant to ask a question: "Joy..." recipe
calls for putting mixed (not kneaded) dough in fridge for 12-14
hours. It makes good bread but nothing seems to happen in the
fridge re rising, etc - after it comes out of the fridge, is
kneaded, and put in baking tins, it rises quite spectacularly.
So what happens while it's in the fridge?

Just a small mystery that has me curious and I don't find any
answers "Google-ing".

Thanks for any information,
rte
--
Part of the secret of a success in life is to eat what you like
and let the food fight it out inside.
--Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 08:59:16 +0000, wrote:
Anyway, I originally meant to ask a question: "Joy..." recipe
calls for putting mixed (not kneaded) dough in fridge for 12-14
hours. It makes good bread but nothing seems to happen in the
fridge re rising, etc - after it comes out of the fridge, is
kneaded, and put in baking tins, it rises quite spectacularly.
So what happens while it's in the fridge?
Just a few guesses
The growth rate of candida yeast is not as dependent on high
temperatures as the lactobacillus. So the fridge would tend to favor
the yeast a little.
Also would give the gluten a longer time to "develop", ie ,
form sticky fibers before the lactobacillus starts its gluten-killing
thingy. I have no temperature - curves on that to know if its true.
The CO2 produced by the yeast would only become apparent AFTER
you warm it, as gas occupies a much larger space when warm. But you
said you knead it AFTER taking it out of the fridge. ... uummm ..

I just go for "eyeball" consistency when I do feed it
(usually twice a day). Can't even seen to kill it when I forget
a feeding or two.

If there are no copyright issues, could you post the starter
recipe ? I'm curious about the eyeball - consistency, or maybe my
eyeballs are just harder than yours ?

"amateur" amateur@home wrote in message =
...

Just a few guesses

The growth rate of candida yeast is not as dependent on high
temperatures as the lactobacillus. So the fridge would tend to favor
the yeast a little.

Probably just the other way. See Figure 1 at
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/7/2616

Also would give the gluten a longer time to "develop", ie ,
form sticky fibers before the lactobacillus starts its gluten-killing
thingy.

Where are you learning that lactobacteria kill gluten?=20

I have no temperature - curves on that to know if its true.

You need to study more, speculate less.

The CO2 produced by the yeast would only become apparent AFTER
you warm it, as gas occupies a much larger space when warm. But you
said you knead it AFTER taking it out of the fridge. ... uummm ..

Gas starts expanding, according to a popular model, at -273=B0C. Given
that, the importance of the temperature difference between your fridge
and your room is quite minor.

You are making a good case for my theories about one-name noobies
without email addresses.

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com

wrote in message=20
...

... others have said, "WOW"!

WOW! (Probably some kind of an acronym -- should probably
be looked up before interpreting.)

(starter) never refrigerated ... I do feed it ... usually twice a day =
....=20

Twice a day seems like work. Twice a week refrigerated is easier.
One famous vendor says twice a year for fridge cultures is enough.=20

Can't even seen to kill it when I forget a feeding or two.

Dumb luck is an important ingredient of sourdough success.

"Joy..." recipe calls for putting mixed (not kneaded) dough in=20
fridge for 12-14 hours ... nothing seems to happen in the fridge=20
re rising, ... So what happens while it's in the fridge?

"Retarding" in the fridge, or at relatively low temperature, is a
step which is frequently included in published instructions. The
important thing to understand is that publications are infrequently
short, but instructions for bread, incl. sourdough, can be quite=20
short. To fill the pages, published instructions include many steps
and contingent elaborations, as well as arbitrary rules and=20
requirements largely founded in superstition. Thus three pages
grows to more than three hundred, and books are written and
sold. Book writers compound the situation by basing their=20
presentations on books as opposed to experience.

Retarding does change the consistency of dough towards that=20
of river-bottom mud, and may have some minor effects on the
texture and quality of the product loaves. Charles Perry keeps
the dough in the fridge so his cat cannot get it. If you need to
delay baking (as for sleeping or going to work), refrigerating the
dough is useful to slow down the process.

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com

Dick Adams wrote:

snipped

WOW! (Probably some kind of an acronym -- should probably
be looked up before interpreting.)

wow
v : impress greatly; "The speaker wowed the audience"

Dumb luck is an important ingredient of sourdough success.

The above statement probably says it all! lol

...good case for my theories about one-name noobies
without email addresses.

I'd dearly love to hear your theories (OT though they be);
perhaps in a more appropriate newsgroup. That said, I believe
the conventional reasons a 1) It eliminates Spambots and
malicious types from polluting email and, 2) The OP would rather
read replies in the newsgroup, thus sharing any received
knowledge with others in the group.

"amateur" amateur@home wrote:

snipped

If there are no copyright issues, could you post the starter
recipe ? I'm curious about the eyeball - consistency, or maybe
my eyeballs are just harder than yours ?

Rough summary:

....1/2 cup bread flour, 1/4 cup barely lukewarm water mixed in
clean bowl. Turn out and knead for 3-5 minutes. return to bowl
and cover (plastic wrap w/holes). Let stand for 12-15 hours.

Add 1/2 cup bread flour, 1/4 cup room-temperature water,
re-cover and let stand for another 12-15 hours

Add 1/2...1/4 etc, - should rise and start bubbling by the end
of these steps, if not, discard and start over.

Add 1/2...1/4 etc. Cover w/no holes. Let stand until rises -
about 12 hours. Feed again - should rise and be bubbly in 4-8
hours - then ready for use.

Subsequent feedings, 3 or so tablespoons flour and enough
(eyeball) water to easily stir...

Seems to work and just gets better with age.

Thanks all for the information. I now have enough of a base to go
Googling.

Cheers, rte
--
Das Leben, es ist unbestimmt. Isst erst den Nachtisch!

wrote in message =
...

... I believe the conventional reasons (for omitting email
addresses): 1) It eliminates Spambots and malicious types=20
from polluting email and, 2) The OP would rather read=20
replies in the newsgroup, thus sharing any received knowledge=20
with others in the group.

1. What you do is disguise it, not omit it. Then, if your post were=20
entirely trivial (not of general interest), it could be replied =
privately.
And, if your post were totally stupid, an appropriate reply could be=20
made with being generally offensive.

2. Some OPs (original posters?) have no purpose other than to
see their names and mumblings in cyberspace. Sometimes others
seek only to disrupt.

Das Leben, es ist unbestimmt. Isst erst den Nachtisch!

I can't say right now. I'll have to give the matter some further =
thought.

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 15:57:24 GMT, "Dick Adams"
wrote:

"amateur" amateur@home wrote in message ...

Just a few guesses
JUST A FEW GUESSES. There , easier to see, now. You must have
lost your reading glasses, old man. Or was it that extra beer that
blurred your sight ?

The growth rate of candida yeast is not as dependent on high
temperatures as the lactobacillus. So the fridge would tend to favor
the yeast a little.

Probably just the other way. See Figure 1 at
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/7/2616
lactobacilli have an optimum growth at 33c. Candida at 28c.
Below that , they tend to lose speed quickly, and proportionally. See
the articles at Samarthas site.

Also would give the gluten a longer time to "develop", ie ,
form sticky fibers before the lactobacillus starts its gluten-killing
thingy.

Where are you learning that lactobacteria kill gluten?
lactobacilli = acidity
acidity = gluten-breaking enzymes. You must have missed the
thread. It was discussed a while ago. Oh dear, you were IN that
thread. You actually posted one of the better links. I thanked you for
it. Seems to strengthen the "beer too many" theory.

I have no temperature - curves on that to know if its true.

You need to study more, speculate less.
No, you do. I'm just an amateur. Its in my sig.

The CO2 produced by the yeast would only become apparent AFTER
you warm it, as gas occupies a much larger space when warm. But you
said you knead it AFTER taking it out of the fridge. ... uummm ..

Gas starts expanding, according to a popular model, at -273°C. Given
that, the importance of the temperature difference between your fridge
and your room is quite minor.
That depends on the gas. CO2 expands nothing at all from -273c
to its boiling (subliming) point. Something just below 0c. Then it
expands very quickly. It is what makes the bread "oven spring". After
all, the center of bread does not heat much above 100c in the oven,
due to the water present.

You are making a good case for my theories about one-name noobies
without email addresses.
Lots of things come to mind, but I don't feel like insulting
you today. Well, not just yet.

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:54:49 +0000, wrote:

"amateur" amateur@home wrote:

snipped

If there are no copyright issues, could you post the starter
recipe ? I'm curious about the eyeball - consistency, or maybe
my eyeballs are just harder than yours ?

Rough summary:
snipped

Add 1/2...1/4 etc. Cover w/no holes. Let stand until rises -
about 12 hours. Feed again - should rise and be bubbly in 4-8
hours - then ready for use.

Subsequent feedings, 3 or so tablespoons flour and enough
(eyeball) water to easily stir...
I use exactly the same proportion. A cup of flour to half a
cup of water. When it takes off, I put it in the fridge. And only feed
it again when I make bread, which is approx once a week. I presume the
eyeball refers to the quantity you feed ? Mine is quite slack, like
pancake batter.

Seems to work and just gets better with age.

Thanks all for the information. I now have enough of a base to go
These are good solid links. Pity Mike Avery does not allow you to DL
his full PDF book.Only 550kb. It was what got me started on sourdough.
His free brochure is worth reading, it covers starters.

http://samartha.net/index.html
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.html
Googling.

Also, search for:
APPLIED AND ENVIRONMENTAL MICROBIOLOGY,
0099-2240/98/$04.0010
July 1998, p. 2616–2623 Vol. 64, No. 7
Copyright © 1998, American Society for Microbiology. All Rights
Reserved.
Modeling of Growth of Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis and
Candida milleri in Response to Process Parameters of
Sourdough Fermentation
MICHAEL G. GA ¨ NZLE, MICHAELA EHMANN, AND WALTER P. HAMMES*
Institut fu ¨r Lebensmitteltechnologie, Universita ¨t Hohenheim,
D-70599 Stuttgart, Germany
Received 5 February 1998/Accepted 29 April 1998
We investigated the effect of the ecological factors pH, temperature,
ionic strength, and lactate, acetate, and ethanol levels on Candida
milleri and two strains of Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis, organisms
representative of the microflora of sourdough.
Cheers, rte

amateur wrote:

snipped

I use exactly the same proportion. A cup of flour to half a
cup of water. When it takes off, I put it in the fridge. And
only feed it again when I make bread, which is approx once a
week. I presume the eyeball refers to the quantity you feed ?
Mine is quite slack, like pancake batter.

snipped

I keep trying to put the starter in the fridge, but the new
family craze seems to entail consuming great quantities of
sourdough bread - I've been baking a loaf or two almost every
day - eventually I hope the consumption will taper off. lol

One eyeball = 1 1/2 guesstimate. I am going to try your pancake
batter consistency - makes sense; easier to pour out of
container.

Thanks for the idea,
rte

--
A good wife always forgives her husband when she's wrong.
--Milton Berle

wrote in message
...
I am going to try your pancake batter consistency - makes
sense; easier to pour out of container.
Thanks for the idea,
rte

Try making some pancakes with your sourdough, they are great with
hot home made syrup.
Ernie

"amateur" amateur@home wrote in message =
...

You must have lost your reading glasses, old man.=20
Or was it that extra beer that blurred your sight ?

Nah, I see good! You had said something to the effect
that lactobacilli kill gluten, specifically

... the lactobacillus starts its gluten-killing thingy ...

and more recently, you defensively rationalized that as follows:

lactobacilli =3D acidity
acidity =3D gluten-breaking enzymes

and attributed that absurd pseudologic to me, as follows:

You must have missed the thread. It was discussed a=20
while ago. Oh dear, you were IN that thread. You=20
actually posted one of the better links. I thanked you=20
for it. Seems to strengthen the "beer too many" theory.

The article I mentioned (linked) said "Acidic conditions present=20
in sourdoughs create an ideal environment for cereal aspartic=20
proteinases to be active against gluten proteins."=20

What the writer of that said is not the same as what you were
trying to say. But somehow I do not expect you to understand
that. =20

I'm just an amateur. Its in my sig.

You seem adamant in your ineducability.

You went on:
=20
CO2 expands nothing at all from -273c to its boiling=20
(subliming) point. Something just below 0c. Then it
expands very quickly. It is what makes the bread "oven=20
spring". After all, the center of bread does not heat much=20
above 100c in the oven, due to the water present.

In any event, carbon dioxide in refrigerated dough taken to=20
room temperature would expand by the following factor:

(273 + 20)/(273 + 4)

if room temperature were 20=B0C and the fridge were at 4=B0C, to
a very reasonable degree of approximation. In the oven it=20
would expand some more, to a limit of:

(273 + 100)/(273 + 20)

Substances like water and alcohol which may undergo a phase
change could contribute more to the volume expansion of the=20
dough loaf in the oven. Terminal fermentation and other factors
may also be involved.

Lots of things come to mind, but I don't feel like insulting you=20
today. Well, not just yet.

Oh, go ahead, I can take it. Otherwise, could just take my=20
glasses off and drink some more beer.

Why don't you nameless nOObie folks give us some clue to your=20
email addresses so that we can attempt to educate you privately=20
without boring the whole news group to death?

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com

Dick Adams wrote:

snipped

I'm just an amateur. Its in my sig.
You seem adamant in your ineducability.

Gee! such a brilliant ripost.

Why don't you nameless nOObie folks give us some clue to your
email addresses so that we can attempt to educate you privately
without boring the whole news group to death?

Okay folks - I would like to thank all the people that provided
me with helpful answers when I first started this thread - Even
Dick Adams was somewhat helpful.

I've read through most of the links provided by you good folks
and I am thoroughly intimidated by Samartha Deva's website. I
learned a lot there, but really, the man is a fanatic (and very
helpfully non-condescending to "newbies". I don't think I am
going to get quite that dedicated to my new "pet" - but I can
see the fascination engendered by yeastless baking... It also
makes me wonder how the hell I succeeded - As Dickie boy said,
"More luck than skill" (note: paraphrased) And that probably is
the truest thing Dick ever uttered.

NOW! Folks uninterested in non-bread subjects, please disregard
the following:

rant

Now on to Dickie boy's "nameless nOObie" (wow! excellent sarcasm
there, Dickless) rants.

Why in the many names of anything anyone believes in, would
someone want an arse like this renegade from the Adams family
"instructing" them privately (sound faintly perverted?). This
folks is the beauty of Usenet - If you don't want to read the
OP, you can killfile him. If a poster bores you, killfile his
raggedy arse! ...And why should Dickless adjudicate what is or
is not boring in this NG? - I found the rest of you folks very
interesting and helpful. Dickless seems to only want to put down
anyone that might dare offer up a suggestion that is contrary
the standard policy for "his" newsgroup. ...and of course, he is
the leading expert on Netiquette - I suppose in this newsgroup
and also others.

I suggest everyone read Dickie Baby's past posts and ask
themselves if they would want such a pretentious (you supply the
word) filling up their mailboxes with "instructional" postings.
This is usenet, not a mailbox and there is no requirement for
anyone to reveal ANY private details - in fact, it is probably a
bad idea to post your correct email address (unless it's a
throwaway) - There are Spambots out there, you know.

/rant

I apologize to the people in the NG that are really interested in
sharing knowledge and answering possibly boring repetitive
questions (and who I have probably bored with this post), but I
believe that sharing knowledge is one way to immortality.
Running down people for your own egoistic purposes is
contra-productive - b u t , bring it on Dickless, if you wish.

Again, I thank the folks that provided links, suggestions and
helpful ideas for amateur, part-time and hobbyist sourdough
enthusiasts.

I will lurk with interest and in the meantime, feed my starter
haphazardly - and produce pretty good sourdough bread,

cheers, rte

--
I was so poor growing up, if I wasn't a boy, I'd have nothing to
play with.
--Rodney Dangerfield

wrote in message
...
Dick Adams wrote:
Now on to Dickie boy's "nameless nOObie" (wow! excellent
sarcasm
there, Dickless) rants.

Dear confused,
We are all aware of Dickie Boys hang-ups, that is why he is on
my kill list. If you are going to read witless remarks please
don't repeat them on the news group.
Ernie

wrote in message=20
...

... Now on to Dickie boy's "nameless nOObie" (wow! excellent=20
sarcasm there, Dickless) rants.

(Thanks) Well, actually, a rant is monologue.
=20
We, on the other hand, are engaging in a conversation (which would
be more appropriately held via email, if that were possible).

... Dickless seems to only want to put down anyone that might dare=20
offer up a suggestion that is contrary the standard policy for "his"=20
newsgroup. ...and of course, he is the leading expert on Netiquette=20

I am only an expert on r.f.s. nOObies, specializing in the nameless=20
and one-name varieties. Please see: =20
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F.../noobiness.txt

There are some tips for newcomers at:
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html
(rarely found by nOObies)

... there is no requirement for anyone to reveal ANY private=20
details - in fact, it is probably a bad idea to post your correct=20
email address (unless it's a throwaway) - There are Spambots=20
out there, you know.

Well, of course, if you give your actual name, some idiot may=20
attempt to deride you by making fun of it, but that is not a=20
terribly serious thing. Disguising your email addy against=20
Spambots is pretty easy, and it, incidentally, also works against=20
nOObies.
=20
Running down people for your own egoistic purposes is
contra-productive - b u t , bring it on Dickless, if you wish.

Oh, thanks for the opportunity. Well, the use of a combination=20
of words that may be taken as, or mistaken for, a first name and a=20
last name, as a newsgroup identity, gives a legitimate appearance=20
to the "from" column in one's newsgroup reader, and conveys the=20
illusion that one is interacting with real people as opposed to a=20
bunch of timid nameless twerps hiding behind nonsense strings.

Another important thing about your newsgroup identity is that it=20
serves to locate your posts in the archives -- if you post=20
anything worth reviewing, which, statistics prove, nOObies of the=20
varieties I have described, generally don't. It is good if one's=20
newsgroup identity is unique, for obvious reasons, considering=20
the number of posts in the archives. (Our most illustrious recent=20
nOObie could be located all over Usenet with the identity=20
but that is a definite anomaly.)=20

I will lurk with interest and in the meantime, feed my starter
haphazardly - and produce pretty good sourdough bread ...

Statistics indicate that you will forget to feed your starter, and=20
fade rapidly into the r.f.s. past. And that there will never be any=20
evidence of your bread.

" I was so poor growing up, if I wasn't a boy, I'd have nothing to
play with."

Now you have your starter -- for a while, anyway. Enjoy!

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com

"amateur" amateur@home wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 08:59:16 +0000, wrote:
Anyway, I originally meant to ask a question: "Joy..." recipe
calls for putting mixed (not kneaded) dough in fridge for 12-14
hours. It makes good bread but nothing seems to happen in the
fridge re rising, etc - after it comes out of the fridge, is
kneaded, and put in baking tins, it rises quite spectacularly.
So what happens while it's in the fridge?
Just a few guesses
The growth rate of candida yeast is not as dependent on high
temperatures as the lactobacillus. So the fridge would tend to favor
the yeast a little.
Also would give the gluten a longer time to "develop", ie ,
form sticky fibers before the lactobacillus starts its gluten-killing
thingy. I have no temperature - curves on that to know if its true.
The CO2 produced by the yeast would only become apparent AFTER
you warm it, as gas occupies a much larger space when warm. But you
said you knead it AFTER taking it out of the fridge. ... uummm ..

I just go for "eyeball" consistency when I do feed it
(usually twice a day). Can't even seen to kill it when I forget
a feeding or two.

If there are no copyright issues, could you post the starter
recipe ? I'm curious about the eyeball - consistency, or maybe my
eyeballs are just harder than yours ?

Do sourdough bakers ever take a vacation? How long would your planned
vacation be before you would consider freezing your sourdough. (I won't be
taking mine along with me.)

Thanks,
Dee
Dee