I enjoyed Dick's ramble as repeated below. I thought I would defend the
basket users, being a recent convert myself to basket use.

It should be admitted that I baked bread happily for 25 years without
baskets, the last 10 years devoted exclusively to sourdough. Yes, there
has been the occasional holiday kugelhof, but in the main it's been
flour, water, salt and starter every three days for a long time.

I can even say that I was anti-basket for a while, particularly after
the wise folks at King Arthur offered linen lined wicker baskets for
$70 apiece. I fretted about inappropriate French influences. But even
worse, I worried that post industrial Republican materialism was
creeping into our simple community. First the Viking ranges, then the
Viking Mixers...

Several weeks ago a link to TMB baking supplies was posted on another
bread bakers use group. When I realized that willow baskets could be
had for $16 each and linen liners for another $8, I decided to take the
plunge. I confess I did not consider my grandmother's potential
influence. She was, to my family's everlasting shame, 100% German, as
well as blond, blue eyed and very Catholic.

This is what I discovered...

1) The contact with floured linen strengthens the dough's surface
because it dries it somewhat during proofing. This keeps the dough, and
I use well hydrated versions, from "spreading" laterally during the
bake cycle.

2) Those fussy and vain adjustments, like slashing the dough's surface
became absolutely necessary. Otherwise the somewhat drier surface rips
in rather awkward places. Not only is the result a cosmetic disaster,
it plays havoc with downstream sandwich use.

3) A really hot oven cycle, 450 at least, becomes necessary. The bread
must spring up quickly, not out, from the hot surface of the stone or
baking sheet. Those artistic little slashes thus strongly influence the
vertical development.

For some reason, and I'm sure there's a knowledgeable individual in
this group who can tell me, the crumb is better. The structure is more
open, more irregular, and for want of a better word "plush". The
finished loaves rebound after slicing. I know the hot oven "pushing"
the loaf. I can see it is gelatinizing the starch but it's not clear to
me why baking free form is more effective in crumb development than
using a loaf pan.

But I will Witness and Testify that using baskets adds flavor and
textural quality to loaves that pans cannot. There's nothing visual
about it.

Will


Begin forwarded message:

From: "Dick Adams"
Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:54:29 AM America/Chicago
To:
Subject: Bread flattens during rising -- very soft dough


"Dee Randall" deedoveyatshenteldotnet wrote in message
...

Thanks for calling me "dear child," that's so lovely.

Thanks, dear child, for designating my outlandish behavior as
"lovely".

Well, actually, I am not quite old enough to feel fatherly
towards you, but I will soon be.

I would like to commend you on having two actual names
and what appears to be an actual return address, and willingness
to share the graphic details of your physiognomy and ontogeny with
us. I hope that some of our anonymous CB fugitives and one-name
noobies will notice how easy it is to be (or pass yourself off as) a
legitimate person here.

(Well, of course, Kenneth is not a newbie -- he has been here
forever, and Boron Elgar is a fake -- nobody in his/her right mind
actually named Boron would reveal that to anybody.)

But now, as far as the fancy baskets are concerned, I would like
to suggest that these make far more sense to the folks who distinguish
themselves my making very complicated bread than they do to those
of us that make simple bread (flour [=WWF], water, salt & culture).
And the reason for that is very easy to identify: The more stuff that
goes into dough, and the more you fool around with it, the less likely
it is to rise well. The more vigorously it rises, the more likely it
is to
achieve and maintain, without the use of forms, an acceptable loaf
shape. And, of course, non-Teutonic people who optimistically persist
in trying to make bread from rye flour need all the help they can get.

However, the cosmetic improvement that can be got by imprinting
fancy basket structure on bread crust cannot be denied. It is an
obvious culinary vanity for vain culinarians.

--
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com





_______________________________________________
rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

"William Waller" wrote in message
news:mailman.40.1076954321.204.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...
snip

For some reason, and I'm sure there's a knowledgeable individual in
this group who can tell me, the crumb is better. The structure is more
open, more irregular, and for want of a better word "plush". The
finished loaves rebound after slicing. I know the hot oven "pushing"
the loaf. I can see it is gelatinizing the starch but it's not clear to
me why baking free form is more effective in crumb development than
using a loaf pan.

But I will Witness and Testify that using baskets adds flavor and
textural quality to loaves that pans cannot. There's nothing visual
about it.

Will
snip
I loved reading the rambles of both of you. My feeling(opinion only) is
that bread in pans somewhat steams to cook and causes a different flavor.
The heat must penetrate the pan and accesses the dough much more slowly.
Much like a chunk of beef that is done stovetop in a closed pot, surrounded
by moisture tastes different from a chunk of beef done in an open pan in the
oven. Or take the Thanksgiving turkey--different flavors for open roaster,
covered roaster, roasted in bag. The turkey browns differently in each
instance as well.

In the case of bread with commercial yeast, I think pan breads taste more
strongly of yeast than free form loaves. Perhaps it's a case of liberal
off-gassing as opposed to restricted.

Janet

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 11:19:34 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
wrote:


"William Waller" wrote in message
news:mailman.40.1076954321.204.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
snip

For some reason, and I'm sure there's a knowledgeable individual in
this group who can tell me, the crumb is better. The structure is more
open, more irregular, and for want of a better word "plush". The
finished loaves rebound after slicing. I know the hot oven "pushing"
the loaf. I can see it is gelatinizing the starch but it's not clear to
me why baking free form is more effective in crumb development than
using a loaf pan.

But I will Witness and Testify that using baskets adds flavor and
textural quality to loaves that pans cannot. There's nothing visual
about it.

Will
snip
I loved reading the rambles of both of you. My feeling(opinion only) is
that bread in pans somewhat steams to cook and causes a different flavor.
The heat must penetrate the pan and accesses the dough much more slowly.
Much like a chunk of beef that is done stovetop in a closed pot, surrounded
by moisture tastes different from a chunk of beef done in an open pan in the
oven. Or take the Thanksgiving turkey--different flavors for open roaster,
covered roaster, roasted in bag. The turkey browns differently in each
instance as well.

In the case of bread with commercial yeast, I think pan breads taste more
strongly of yeast than free form loaves. Perhaps it's a case of liberal
off-gassing as opposed to restricted.

Janet

Hi Janet & Will,

I have experimented with all of this for over thirty years... My
observations are as Janet describes.

Someone (perhaps Janet in an earlier post) also mentioned the crust
being different. I agree what that also.

I am no opponent of pan breads (I have one baking right now) but there
are real advantages to the basket & invert approach in my opinion.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Monday, February 16, 2004, at 12:43 PM, Kenneth wrote:

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 11:19:34 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
wrote:


"William Waller" wrote in message
news:mailman.40.1076954321.204.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com..
.
snip

For some reason, and I'm sure there's a knowledgeable individual in
this group who can tell me, the crumb is better. The structure is
more
open, more irregular, and for want of a better word "plush". The
finished loaves rebound after slicing. I know the hot oven "pushing"
the loaf. I can see it is gelatinizing the starch but it's not clear
to
me why baking free form is more effective in crumb development than
using a loaf pan.

But I will Witness and Testify that using baskets adds flavor and
textural quality to loaves that pans cannot. There's nothing visual
about it.

Will
snip
I loved reading the rambles of both of you. My feeling(opinion
only) is
that bread in pans somewhat steams to cook and causes a different
flavor.
The heat must penetrate the pan and accesses the dough much more
slowly.
Much like a chunk of beef that is done stovetop in a closed pot,
surrounded
by moisture tastes different from a chunk of beef done in an open pan
in the
oven. Or take the Thanksgiving turkey--different flavors for open
roaster,
covered roaster, roasted in bag. The turkey browns differently in
each
instance as well.

In the case of bread with commercial yeast, I think pan breads taste
more
strongly of yeast than free form loaves. Perhaps it's a case of
liberal
off-gassing as opposed to restricted.

Janet

Hi Janet & Will,

I have experimented with all of this for over thirty years... My
observations are as Janet describes.

Someone (perhaps Janet in an earlier post) also mentioned the crust
being different. I agree what that also.

I am no opponent of pan breads (I have one baking right now) but there
are real advantages to the basket & invert approach in my opinion.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

Kenneth and Janet,

The impact to flavor of "steaming" feels very logical to me. It started
a cogitative cycle here.

As you both point out, pan breads are essentially baked with convective
energy (heat from contact with the loaf pan). "Basket and Invert"
breads are baked with radiant energy (heat from the surrounding oven).
Radiant energy is fundamentally different. Infra-red waves can
immediately penetrate several inches into the loaf. Thus...not only can
it degas more freely, it can bake from the inside as well.

Will

"William Waller" wrote in message
But I will Witness and Testify that using baskets adds
flavor and
textural quality to loaves that pans cannot. There's nothing
visual
about it.
Will

I am certain that using a basket to bake the bread in would add
flavor, and smoke up the kitchen.
Ernie

In honor of Mr Adams I think I'll change my posting name to "Pompous Ass."

That way I won't be a one-name noobie, right?

Paul

"William Waller" wrote in message
news:mailman.40.1076954321.204.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...
I enjoyed Dick's ramble as repeated below. I thought I would defend the
basket users, being a recent convert myself to basket use.

It should be admitted that I baked bread happily for 25 years without
baskets, the last 10 years devoted exclusively to sourdough. Yes, there
has been the occasional holiday kugelhof, but in the main it's been
flour, water, salt and starter every three days for a long time.

I can even say that I was anti-basket for a while, particularly after
the wise folks at King Arthur offered linen lined wicker baskets for
$70 apiece. I fretted about inappropriate French influences. But even
worse, I worried that post industrial Republican materialism was
creeping into our simple community. First the Viking ranges, then the
Viking Mixers...

Several weeks ago a link to TMB baking supplies was posted on another
bread bakers use group. When I realized that willow baskets could be
had for $16 each and linen liners for another $8, I decided to take the
plunge. I confess I did not consider my grandmother's potential
influence. She was, to my family's everlasting shame, 100% German, as
well as blond, blue eyed and very Catholic.

This is what I discovered...

1) The contact with floured linen strengthens the dough's surface
because it dries it somewhat during proofing. This keeps the dough, and
I use well hydrated versions, from "spreading" laterally during the
bake cycle.

2) Those fussy and vain adjustments, like slashing the dough's surface
became absolutely necessary. Otherwise the somewhat drier surface rips
in rather awkward places. Not only is the result a cosmetic disaster,
it plays havoc with downstream sandwich use.

3) A really hot oven cycle, 450 at least, becomes necessary. The bread
must spring up quickly, not out, from the hot surface of the stone or
baking sheet. Those artistic little slashes thus strongly influence the
vertical development.

For some reason, and I'm sure there's a knowledgeable individual in
this group who can tell me, the crumb is better. The structure is more
open, more irregular, and for want of a better word "plush". The
finished loaves rebound after slicing. I know the hot oven "pushing"
the loaf. I can see it is gelatinizing the starch but it's not clear to
me why baking free form is more effective in crumb development than
using a loaf pan.

But I will Witness and Testify that using baskets adds flavor and
textural quality to loaves that pans cannot. There's nothing visual
about it.

Will


Begin forwarded message:

From: "Dick Adams"
Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:54:29 AM America/Chicago
To:
Subject: Bread flattens during rising -- very soft dough


"Dee Randall" deedoveyatshenteldotnet wrote in message
...

Thanks for calling me "dear child," that's so lovely.

Thanks, dear child, for designating my outlandish behavior as
"lovely".

Well, actually, I am not quite old enough to feel fatherly
towards you, but I will soon be.

I would like to commend you on having two actual names
and what appears to be an actual return address, and willingness
to share the graphic details of your physiognomy and ontogeny with
us. I hope that some of our anonymous CB fugitives and one-name
noobies will notice how easy it is to be (or pass yourself off as) a
legitimate person here.

(Well, of course, Kenneth is not a newbie -- he has been here
forever, and Boron Elgar is a fake -- nobody in his/her right mind
actually named Boron would reveal that to anybody.)

But now, as far as the fancy baskets are concerned, I would like
to suggest that these make far more sense to the folks who distinguish
themselves my making very complicated bread than they do to those
of us that make simple bread (flour [=WWF], water, salt & culture).
And the reason for that is very easy to identify: The more stuff that
goes into dough, and the more you fool around with it, the less likely
it is to rise well. The more vigorously it rises, the more likely it
is to
achieve and maintain, without the use of forms, an acceptable loaf
shape. And, of course, non-Teutonic people who optimistically persist
in trying to make bread from rye flour need all the help they can get.

However, the cosmetic improvement that can be got by imprinting
fancy basket structure on bread crust cannot be denied. It is an
obvious culinary vanity for vain culinarians.

--
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com





_______________________________________________
rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

"Paul" wrote in message =
. com...

In honor of Mr Adams I think I'll change my posting name to=20
"Pompous Ass." That way I won't be a one-name noobie,=20
right?

Nah, no-name nOObie. "Pompous Ass" is a description, not
a name. Anyway, so far you have demonstrated no pomposity,
though you do lack a usable email address and otherwise appear
suitably assinine. (You need to work a bit more on pomposity.)

[ ... ] (Thread history deleted -- no need to play that back each
time.)

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com
(Marcella thinks that dick is a description.)

This is what I discovered...

1) The contact with floured linen strengthens the dough's surface
because it dries it somewhat during proofing. This keeps the dough, and
I use well hydrated versions, from "spreading" laterally during the
bake cycle.

2) Those fussy and vain adjustments, like slashing the dough's surface
became absolutely necessary. Otherwise the somewhat drier surface rips
in rather awkward places. Not only is the result a cosmetic disaster,
it plays havoc with downstream sandwich use.

3) A really hot oven cycle, 450 at least, becomes necessary. The bread
must spring up quickly, not out, from the hot surface of the stone or
baking sheet. Those artistic little slashes thus strongly influence the
vertical development.

Of course, in Germany and the rest of Central Europe, they've always
used willow baskets, as evidenced by the visible pattern on top of the
bread (same in many German bakeries in America). By the same token,
they do not use linen (or there would be no pattern).
Anybody knows how come the dough will not stick to the basket?

On 19 Feb 2004 01:41:50 -0800, (Nabuco) wrote:


Of course, in Germany and the rest of Central Europe, they've always
used willow baskets, as evidenced by the visible pattern on top of the
bread (same in many German bakeries in America). By the same token,
they do not use linen (or there would be no pattern).
Anybody knows how come the dough will not stick to the basket?


Flour. Lots of it. And rice flour is even better.

Boron

"Nabuco" wrote in message
om...


Of course, in Germany and the rest of Central Europe, they've always
used willow baskets, as evidenced by the visible pattern on top of the
bread (same in many German bakeries in America). By the same token,
they do not use linen (or there would be no pattern).

So -- what is the material that "...and the rest of Central Europe" puts in
their willow baskets?
I've seen MANY bread-making shows filmed in large bakeries in Europe where
they use their basets WITH a cloth in it.

I've made bread in a banneton (willow basket) with a linen cloth that had a
pattern.
Dee

Hi Dee,

Am 19 Feb 2004 01:41:50 -0800, schrieb (Nabuco):

Of course, in Germany and the rest of Central Europe, they've always
used willow baskets, as evidenced by the visible pattern on top of the
bread (same in many German bakeries in America). By the same token,
they do not use linen (or there would be no pattern).
Anybody knows how come the dough will not stick to the basket?

In the beginning of my bread-baking I used bowls with heavily floured
kitchen towels.
http://www.petras-brotkasten.de/BrotPoil.html

Now I have baskets in different sizes made of wood pulp from
http://web282.km1002.keymachine.de/b...ection=angebot

I use them with a lot of flour, that works very well. They also have
"protective cloths for bannetons"
http://web282.km1002.keymachine.de/b...gle&nummer=4.2
but say "As the protective clothing is only useful in the baking industry
(bakeries, baking factories) those a no longer delivered to private buyers"

Greetings from Germany
Petra
--
Petra Holzapfel
www.kochkiste.de * Menüs für jede Jahreszeit * Backrezepte *
www.petras-brotkasten.de * Brotrezepte mit Fotos *

You probably don't have any friends, do you? This newsgroup is your only
life.. How nice for you.

"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...

"Paul" wrote in message
. com...

In honor of Mr Adams I think I'll change my posting name to
"Pompous Ass." That way I won't be a one-name noobie,
right?

Nah, no-name nOObie. "Pompous Ass" is a description, not
a name. Anyway, so far you have demonstrated no pomposity,
though you do lack a usable email address and otherwise appear
suitably assinine. (You need to work a bit more on pomposity.)

[ ... ] (Thread history deleted -- no need to play that back each
time.)

--
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com
(Marcella thinks that dick is a description.)

"Paul" wrote in message =
. com...

You probably don't have any friends, do you? ...=20

Well, for one, Kenneth does not like me. He has kill-filed me. So has=20
Earnie. You should do that too.=20

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com

P. S Check out my theory about one-name, no-address, =
full-requote-overloading,=20
nOObies http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/noobiness.txt
You little jerks are really making the case for that. Next reply to my =
email please,
unless you are trying to distinguish yourself as a newsgroup savior or =
something.

It would be harmless to kill-file you, since you don't have anything to
contribute to any discussion, except:

1. I don't like one-name nOObies.
2. You should bake pan breads.

You're a real asset to the group.



"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...

"Paul" wrote in message
. com...

You probably don't have any friends, do you? ...

Well, for one, Kenneth does not like me. He has kill-filed me. So has
Earnie. You should do that too.

--
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com

P. S Check out my theory about one-name, no-address,
full-requote-overloading,
nOObies http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/noobiness.txt
You little jerks are really making the case for that. Next reply to my
email please,
unless you are trying to distinguish yourself as a newsgroup savior or
something.

"Paul" wrote in message
. com...
It would be harmless to kill-file you, since you don't have
anything to
contribute to any discussion, except:

1. I don't like one-name nOObies.
2. You should bake pan breads.

You're a real asset to the group.

Paul,
Please don't repeat Adams' smart ass remarks in your posts. If
you want to communicate with him use e-mail. I already have him
on my kill file and I don't want you to join him.
Ernie