Hello all,

I have been reading in this newsgroup for a while now and also have
made some (more or less satisfying) experiments with sourdough.

The reason I'm interested in the subject is simply because I miss the
sourdough bread I used to enjoy everyday in Germany. I lived there all
my life until I moved to Minnesota in April. The area I live in now
doesn't have much to offer as far as ethnic food is concerned. So I
started to get information about making rye sourdoughbread from this
newsgroup and the internet.

I ordered a Sourdough starter from King Arthur and fed it and it is
still alive. I used it for baking of rye bread a few times. I tried
different recipes. The first bread I ever baked turned out really
good - surprisingly. When I baked again with the same recipe the bread
was hard as a rock. With other recipes I wasn't any luckier.

A week ago or so I saw this show on the Food Network about Sourdough
Bread Baking. The first bread on the show was a rye bread. The recipe
can be found he

http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/reci..._13754,00.html

The bread looked very much like the regular bread in Germany. So I
figured this might be a good recipe to go with and to bake until it's
just right.

I started to make the Chef yesterday and what kind of worries me a bit
is the fact that it is overly active. After about 8 hours the Chef had
already risen by 70 %. Today after the second feeding the Chef more
then doubled in about three hours. I opened the tightly closed lid,
and it very soundly popped. I really wanna get this right this time!

Do I have to worry or can I just continue with the recipe?

Also, did someone here use this recipe before and has made decent
bread from it?

Any input would be greatly appreciated - I'm very desperate for good
bread.

Denise

Denise,

The recipe you refer to sounds about right, and no - I have not tried
it, I use bread formulas. What is missing on this recipe is how the
starter is grown and that's an essential part. Recipes of that kind
(without starter part) use yeast to rise the dough and the starter for
taste purpose.

What also is missing is if the starter is a white flour wheat starter or
a full grain rye.

From the rising rates you describe below - could it be that you are
growing the starter with fine white wheat flour?

One trick with German bread is to use a rye starter. I think most breads
there are made with rye starters - at least the better one's.

It is very important to grow your starter in a consistent manner to get
at least similar results.

I eliminated lot of variance by going to a precisely managed 3-stage
process. Btu. the Hofpfisterei in Munich uses a similar process but I
have not seen it described in detail, probably for proprietary reasons.

You don't _have_ to do the DM-3 Stage process I have on my web site, you
can do a simplified triple/triple/triple with the first stage just to
get active and a little more, the second and third stage go into
transition phase ( http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#GC ).
For that you would have to time your starter. Once you timed it, you
should be able to go by that recipe.

Also, if your starter behaves erratic, you either don't know him very
well, the growth conditions vary or it has not yet established itself.

See, how far that gets you and post again.

Samartha


Denise Craig wrote:

Hello all,

I have been reading in this newsgroup for a while now and also have
made some (more or less satisfying) experiments with sourdough.

The reason I'm interested in the subject is simply because I miss the
sourdough bread I used to enjoy everyday in Germany. I lived there all
my life until I moved to Minnesota in April. The area I live in now
doesn't have much to offer as far as ethnic food is concerned. So I
started to get information about making rye sourdoughbread from this
newsgroup and the internet.

I ordered a Sourdough starter from King Arthur and fed it and it is
still alive. I used it for baking of rye bread a few times. I tried
different recipes. The first bread I ever baked turned out really
good - surprisingly. When I baked again with the same recipe the bread
was hard as a rock. With other recipes I wasn't any luckier.

A week ago or so I saw this show on the Food Network about Sourdough
Bread Baking. The first bread on the show was a rye bread. The recipe
can be found he

http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/reci..._13754,00.html

The bread looked very much like the regular bread in Germany. So I
figured this might be a good recipe to go with and to bake until it's
just right.

I started to make the Chef yesterday and what kind of worries me a bit
is the fact that it is overly active. After about 8 hours the Chef had
already risen by 70 %. Today after the second feeding the Chef more
then doubled in about three hours. I opened the tightly closed lid,
and it very soundly popped. I really wanna get this right this time!

Do I have to worry or can I just continue with the recipe?

Also, did someone here use this recipe before and has made decent
bread from it?

Any input would be greatly appreciated - I'm very desperate for good
bread.

Denise

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remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

Samartha,
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I have read many of your posts
and visit your web site often.

"Samartha Deva" wrote in
message ...
Denise,
What is missing on this recipe is how the
starter is grown and that's an essential part.
Sorry, my fault - it actually says in the recipe, but way on the
bottom. Here it is copied and pasted from the recipe:

--- start quote
Sourdough Rye Starter (Note: Allow 3 to 4 days to make the chef,
recipe follows):
1 cup (9-ounces) ripe rye chef, at room temperature
1 cup (5-ounces) rye flour, preferably medium ground
1/2 cup (4 fluid ounces) spring water

Place the chef in a tall 2 to 3-quart flat bottomed, round, clear
plastic container with a tight fitting lid. Add the rye flour and
spring water, and stir vigorously with a wooden spoon until the
mixture becomes thick and pasty. Mark the level of the mixture on the
side of the container with a black marking pen. Scrape down,
cover tightly, and let stand in a moderately warm (74 to 80 degree)
draft-free place until almost doubled in volume, 8 to 10 hours. The
mixture will look light and spongy. You can observe the level of
sourdough by using the black mark on the side of the container as an
indicator. Do not let the sourdough ferment for longer than 10
hours, or the yeast may exhaust itself and the dough may not rise
properly. The ripe chef has now produced 18 ounces of ripe sourdough,
which you can use in any rye sourdough recipe.

The Rye Chef: Day 1 1/2 cup (4 fluid ounces) spring water 2/3 cup (3
ounces) organic stone-ground rye flour, preferably medium ground

In a tall 2 to 3-quart clear plastic container with a tight-fitting
lid, stir together the water and flour. Scrape down the sides of the
container with a rubber spatula. Cover tightly and put in moderate
(74 to 80 degree) place for 24 hours.

Day 2 1/2 cup (4 fluid ounces) spring water 2/3 cup (3 ounces) organic
stone-ground rye flour, preferably medium ground

Open the container. The young chef will probably show few signs of
activity; the mixture will look like cardboard pulp. Don't worry! It's
still a young chef. It will, however, have a sweet and musty smell and
the beginnings of a tangy taste. Continue building the chef by adding
the water and rye flour. Stir vigorously to bring fresh oxygen into
the chef and distribute the fresh flour and water. Scrape down the
sides, cover tightly and put in a moderate (74 to 80 degrees) place
for another 24 hours.

Day 3 1/2 cup (4 fluid ounces) spring water 2/3 cup (3 ounces) organic
stone-ground rye flour, preferably medium ground

The chef should have expanded noticeably. There should be bubbles on
the surface. Taste it; it will have a pronounced sour taste and smell.
Hold the container up and observe the large and small holes formed
beneath the surface. Stir it with a wooden spoon; you should hear the
faint crackle of gas bubbles popping. The chef is very much alive and
maturing. Insert the spoon again and lift it up slowly. Short
glutinous strands will stick to the spoon. Once again, nourish the
chef by vigorously stirring in another addition of the spring water
and rye flour. Scrape down the sides, cover tightly again, and return
to its moderate-temperature place. Let stand for another 24 hours.

Day 4 1/2 cup (4 fluid ounces) spring water 2/3 cup (3 ounces) organic
stone-ground rye flour, preferably medium ground

The chef is almost mature and ripe. It has expanded a great deal;
maybe almost doubled in volume from Day 3, and it is very lively with
bubbles and a well-developed cellular structure. You will see a
honeycomb of large and small holes through the clear plastic
container. Taste and smell the chef; it is pungent and unmistakably
tangy, sour but not bitter. Nourish again with the last addition of
spring water and rye flour, stirring vigorously. Using a black marker
pen, mark the level of the chef on the side of the clear plastic
container. Scrape down the sides, cover tightly, and let stand again
in the same place for only 8 hours.

If your chef was ripe, the mixture should almost double in volume. You
can check its growth by comparing the height of the risen chef against
the mark you made on the side of the container before the last rising.

The chef is now ready to use to create your sourdough starter. If you
are not going to make the starter immediately, refrigerate the chef in
its tightly covered container for up to 3 days.
--- end quote

I have looked at the "How to make a rye sourdough starter" part on
your web page - extremly interesting, especially the pictures. And
that's were I got a little concerned. I only feed every 24h as per the
recipe and the starter is rising so strongly. Again: 8 hours after
starting from scratch with rye flour and water the starter rose about
70 %; 5 hours after the first feeding it expanded to more than double
the size. The info on your web site made me expect a good rising after
feeding three times or about 38 hours into the process.

You asked in your reply to my post:

From the rising rates you describe below - could it be that you are
growing the starter with fine white wheat flour?

And that's exactly my point - the starter acts alot like my white
flour starter and that I just didn't expect, because everyone here
says that rye takes a lot longer to rise.

It is very important to grow your starter in a consistent manner to
get
at least similar results.

That's why I want to start out right and I hope my starter will be
fine. I need to find a bigger container now before the next feeding

Thanks for all your help.

Denise

Denise Craig wrote:

Samartha,
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I have read many of your posts
and visit your web site often.

"Samartha Deva" wrote in
message ...
Denise,
What is missing on this recipe is how the
starter is grown and that's an essential part.
Sorry, my fault - it actually says in the recipe, but way on the
bottom. Here it is copied and pasted from the recipe:

--- start quote
Sourdough Rye Starter (Note: Allow 3 to 4 days to make the chef,
recipe follows):

Oh me stupid careless influenza bugged dork!
Sorry for skipping that.


1 cup (9-ounces) ripe rye chef, at room temperature
...
--- end quote

This looks to me like growing a starter from scratch i. e. growing your
"chef" from day 1.

From your last post:

I started to make the Chef yesterday and what kind of worries me a bit
is the fact that it is overly active. After about 8 hours the Chef had
already risen by 70 %. Today after the second feeding the Chef more
then doubled in about three hours. I opened the tightly closed lid,
and it very soundly popped.

I am not sure, why you are doing it and not using some leftover "chef"
from last time. I guess, you are doing it the first time, as you may
have probably mentioned, would be a good reason.

The rising rates from the recipe can be misleading. Essential is current
gas production and not what's stored in the structure from over x hours
ago. So you can deflate the starter and then see how it rises from that
point on - vigorously, medium, weak or none and from that you could
determine it's current state.

I have looked at the "How to make a rye sourdough starter" part on
your web page - extremly interesting, especially the pictures. And
that's were I got a little concerned. I only feed every 24h as per the
recipe and the starter is rising so strongly. Again: 8 hours after
starting from scratch with rye flour and water the starter rose about
70 %; 5 hours after the first feeding it expanded to more than double
the size. The info on your web site made me expect a good rising after
feeding three times or about 38 hours into the process.

It looks to me that strong rise is the initial burst of whoever can do
it best in that soup and after some shakeout, the desired SD organisms
will appear. But maybe your rye has very favorable organisms redy to
take off on the spot, that's why it is so quick in your case. If it
smells ok and is sour, you should be on the right path.

You asked in your reply to my post:

From the rising rates you describe below - could it be that you are
growing the starter with fine white wheat flour?

And that's exactly my point - the starter acts alot like my white
flour starter and that I just didn't expect, because everyone here
says that rye takes a lot longer to rise.

Once it's established, I guess, it does especially with lower hydrations
and more fully grain flours. Your's is 133 % (if my blurry vision gets
it right - at times I thought, that the hydration changes but I
eventually settled on it being constant) and this can give extra loft as
well.

It is very important to grow your starter in a consistent manner to
get
at least similar results.

That's why I want to start out right and I hope my starter will be
fine. I need to find a bigger container now before the next feeding

You know, I'd follow the recipe and not worry about excessive growth at
this point. The "chef" recipe looks reasonable - doubling every 24
hours. But there is no feedback as to what the condition of the starter
is, it just goes on.

Thanks for all your help.

You're welcome,

good luck!

Samartha

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