Around here we tend to concentrate on the yeast and lactobacillus
based leavening power of sourdough, but there is another path.

A more acidic starter can be used with baking soda, much in the same
way as buttermilk and baking soda are used. This is often used to
make sourdough biscuits, as well as quickbreads and cakes.

Tonight I was in a hurry. I had to bake a cake right now. And my hand
fell on "The Complete Sourdough Cookbook" by Don and Myrtle Holm.

I settled on "Myrtle's Sourdough Chocolate Cake" on page 102. I've
often thought that Don and Myrtle don't really understand sourdough,
but the cake turned out very, very nicely indeed.

It used 1/2 cup of starter, mixed with 1/4 cup of non-fat dry milk, 1 1/2
cups of flour, and 1 cup of water. The instructions were to "let it stand
a few hours, until that delectable yeasty smell comes to you like an
elixr of the gods." The starter I used was an old all but forgotten starter
from the back of the fridge that was over-due for refreshment. So, I
used 2 tbsp to re-start the starter, and 1/2 cup to make the mixture
above. The mix smelled very good, but it didn't susprise me when it
smelled the same 2 hours later as when I had started.

After that, I creamed 1/2 cup shortening and 1 cup of sugar. I added 1
tsp vanilla, 1 tsp red vegetable coloring (I don't know why I added
this.... it didn't seem to have any real effect), 1/2 tsp salt, and 1 1/2 tsp
baking soda. I mixed, and then added 2 eggs, and 3 squares of
melted bakers chocolate. I mixed some more, and then poured it into
a 7 x 11 baking dish, and baked it about 40 minutes at 350F. I turned
the pan once.

I iced the cake with a chocolate frosting.

The result was moist, rich, very chocolatey, and a big hit at the pot luck
dinner. It had a good strong taste that stayed with you.

Sometimes a walk on the dark side isn't such a bad thing.

Mike
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Mike Avery wrote:

The result was moist, rich, very chocolatey, and a big hit at the pot luck
dinner. It had a good strong taste that stayed with you.

Sometimes a walk on the dark side isn't such a bad thing.

Do you know how easy it is to get consistent results with this
leavening method?

David

On 9 Nov 2003 at 1:15, Feuer wrote:

Mike Avery wrote:
The result was moist, rich, very chocolatey, and a big hit at the
pot luck dinner. It had a good strong taste that stayed with you.

Sometimes a walk on the dark side isn't such a bad thing.

Do you know how easy it is to get consistent results with this
leavening method?

Consistency is always an issue for sourdough. However, I have no
feel for how consistent you can be with the sourdough starter and soda
method. Not even a clue. What follows is pure speculation....

The starter I used was pretty acidic, out at the edge of what a starter
can produce. I suspect how acidic a starter can become is limited by
the organism, what it's fed, and how often it's fed.

All of which is to say, if you leave the starter at room temperature
without refreshment for about 3 days, you'd probably be pretty close to
the same point each time you did this. When you are making bread,
you want an ective starter, for cakes I think you'd want an acidic
starter.

Mike
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Mike Avery wrote:

All of which is to say, if you leave the starter at room temperature
without refreshment for about 3 days, you'd probably be pretty close to
the same point each time you did this.

3 days at room temp I think is longer than is really safe. I
suspect you'd come close to maximum acidity after one day, assuming
a reasonable innoculation.

David

On 9 Nov 2003 at 1:34, Feuer wrote:

Mike Avery wrote:

All of which is to say, if you leave the starter at room temperature
without refreshment for about 3 days, you'd probably be pretty close
to the same point each time you did this.

3 days at room temp I think is longer than is really safe. I
suspect you'd come close to maximum acidity after one day, assuming a
reasonable innoculation.

Safe? If you start with a healthy culture, one which will produce the
desired acidity, then there aren't many pathogenic organisms that will
be able to survive in the culture. Of course, I am assuming that your
culture is covered, not open to the fruit flies, gnats, and other critters
that seem to invade even the cleanest house if there is some sort of
bait out...

Another option would be to use ph test strips to check when the starter
gets to the same point each time you are going to bake.

Mike
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Mike Avery wrote:

Safe? If you start with a healthy culture, one which will produce the
desired acidity, then there aren't many pathogenic organisms that will
be able to survive in the culture.

Sure they will. Acidic food that are not canned will spoil, though
not as rapidly as non-acidic foods, and not from C. botulinum. What
keeps sourdough safe is that the acidity and acetic acid slow the
growth of harmful organisms enough that when the culture is regularly
refreshed the harmful organisms will never be able to reach dangerous
levels. After 3 days, I would not be surprised to see visible mold.
Using a pH meter does not sound like a bad idea, though you'd probably
stop using it once you got a good feel for the method.

David

Feuer wrote:

Mike Avery wrote:

All of which is to say, if you leave the starter at room temperature
without refreshment for about 3 days, you'd probably be pretty close to
the same point each time you did this.

3 days at room temp I think is longer than is really safe. I
suspect you'd come close to maximum acidity after one day, assuming
a reasonable innoculation.

I have a graph from Ottogalli's research on panettone cake showing
acidity growing until 36 hours, then the graph ends, but the curve is
not flat at that point. After 24 hours it is still increasing pretty
steep. Some LB's can go down to 3.2 pH and my guess is that it will take
quite some time to get there - surely in the realm of 2 -3 days.

From a Aug. 2002 post:

The graphs are the

http://samartha.net/SD/images/private/IT/

To keep copyright usage within fair use for educational purpose and my
butt out of trouble, I have to restrict access. The login and password
is sd (case sensitive).

Curves from Rohrlich et al, 1959 show increasing acidity up to 72 hours,
then the curves end - also not flat at that point.

It very much depends on the growth medium as well - high mineral
contents (more fully grain) going much longer.

In a later post, you write:

After 3 days, I would not be surprised to see visible mold.

I don't know what kind of starter experience makes you say that. Even
sourdough bread does not get moldy after 3 days and it's much less
acidic than a starter.

Would you call sourdough bread sitting at room temperature for 3 days as
"not safe"?

Go the

http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01-a.html

under "Starter Poisonous?" there is something about such situations.

If you want to be paranoid, look for something else, not your starter.

Samartha

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SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

"Mike Avery" wrote in message =
news:mailman.4.1068357035.8460.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...

A more acidic starter can be used with baking soda, much in the same=20
way as buttermilk and baking soda are used. This is often used to=20
make sourdough biscuits, as well as quickbreads and cakes.

Curiously, the most obvious advice is usually omitted, namely that the=20
leavening from soda and sourdough acids is generated instantaneously,
so the soda needs be added very shortly before baking if it is to do
its job properly. (Baking powder, on the other hand, has a component
which releases gas during heating.)

Experience shows that the soda needs be combined with some non-
acidic liquid portion of the mix before the final mixing, because the
dry soda is almost impossible to disperse in dough or thick batter.

Sometimes a walk on the dark side isn't such a bad thing.

Chocolate cake does not get credit at r.f.s. for being a dark art.
That distinction, at r.f.s., is reserved for rye sourdough =
uncontaminated
with such things a chocolate, coffee, caramel color, etc. Samartha
is the Prince of Darkness, at least until the all-rye enthusiasts show
some evidence of self-standing boules.

---
DickA

Samartha wrote:
I have a graph from Ottogalli's research on panettone cake showing
acidity growing until 36 hours...


Ed Bechtel asks:

Was that RYE panettone cake?

I tried making 100% rye bread this weekend. My self esteem had been too high
for the last month and needed correcting. The single loaf came out about 1.5
inches tall at best, about the height of cake. Maybe if I tell my wife it is
panettone cake she will eat it all up.

Is it normal for rye bread to be dense, or is it possible to get something less
Scandanavian like?

Ed

On 09 Nov 2003 16:46:50 GMT, ojunk (Ed Bechtel)
wrote:

Is it normal for rye bread to be dense

Hi Ed,

In a word... Yes. 100% rye breads are all extremely dense.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 9 Nov 2003 at 2:01, Feuer wrote:
Mike Avery wrote:

Safe? If you start with a healthy culture, one which will produce
the desired acidity, then there aren't many pathogenic organisms
that will be able to survive in the culture.

Sure they will. Acidic food that are not canned will spoil, though
not as rapidly as non-acidic foods, and not from C. botulinum. What
keeps sourdough safe is that the acidity and acetic acid slow the
growth of harmful organisms enough that when the culture is regularly
refreshed the harmful organisms will never be able to reach dangerous
levels. After 3 days, I would not be surprised to see visible mold.

I'd be stunned to see mold in 3 days, if someone started with a healthy
starter. As Samartha pointed out, bread lasts considerably longer than
that without molding. I've left leftover starter in a bowl on the counter
ignored and unloved for over a week with no molding, and the
pancakes we made with the starter were just fine. No one got sick, no
one had digestive upset.

Of course, there are differences dependent upon the conditions of
one's kitchen. I live in a very dry area, and there don't seem to be
many mold spores in the air. If I lived in some high humidity pestilential
hell hole, like Houston (as I have done in the mercifully distant past), I'd
expect to see mold and other parasitic annoying infestations sooner.

Using a pH meter does not sound like a bad idea, though you'd probably
stop using it once you got a good feel for the method.

Test strips are accurate enough, and much cheaper.

Mike
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On 09 Nov 2003 16:46:50 GMT, ojunk (Ed Bechtel)
wrote:

I have a graph from Ottogalli's research on panettone cake showing
acidity growing until 36 hours...

Was that RYE panettone cake?

I tried making 100% rye bread this weekend. My self esteem had been too high
for the last month and needed correcting. The single loaf came out about 1.5
inches tall at best, about the height of cake. Maybe if I tell my wife it is
panettone cake she will eat it all up.

Is it normal for rye bread to be dense, or is it possible to get something less
Scandanavian like?

From Websters Online:

Main Entry: pan·et·to·ne
Pronunciation: "pä-n&-'tO-nE, "pa-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian, from panetto small loaf, diminutive of pane bread,
from Latin panis -- more at FOOD
Date: 1922
a usually yeast-leavened bread containing raisins and candied fruit


IOW, a fruit cake.

In rec.food.sourdough Ed Bechtel wrote:

I tried making 100% rye bread this weekend. My self esteem had
been too high for the last month and needed correcting. The
single loaf came out about 1.5 inches tall at best, about the
height of cake.

This is within normal limits for 100% rye. With higher hydration
and damaged starch, one can do better - contact Monica Spiller for
details.

You may want to check out a loaf of French Meadow 100% rye, or
other comparable brands in you local health food store, generally
in the frozen section, to see what others can do.

Is it normal for rye bread to be dense, or is it possible to get
something less Scandanavian like?

What is important for me is the taste and texture of the crumb.

So, how did your 100 rye bread taste?

--
Jeff Sheinberg
for email addr: remove "l1." and change ".invalid" to ".net"

Samartha Deva wrote:

I don't know what kind of starter experience makes you say that.

Probably comes from not making bread for the past few months.

David

Jeff replied:
What is important for me is the taste and texture of the crumb.

The crumb was OK, but it was difficult for me to discriminate it from a plop of
raw dough that had fallen on the floor and dried. I think I need more
practice.

The flavor was great. Nice sour taste, and with a piece of cheese, it was da
bomb (that's street talk for "wow, just like smorgasbord").

I used the recipe you posted a week ago. My inclination is that I might have
had a more desireable loaf if I'd not incorporated the last 10 percent rye
after the 1.5 hour rise and gone straight to the oven. Also I'm wondering if
leaving it as a boulle and baking free form would have been better - I'm not
good at pan loaves.

Thanks for the advice,
Ed