"Feuer" wrote in message ...


Bob, you are a ****ing idiot. Since you don't know anything about
the actual safety issues involved in sourdough, why don't you shut
up about them?

David
Note: A starter kept through 14 quadruplings will be diluted
by a factor of 4^14=16^7= over 268 million to one. If these
feedings happen in the course of one week, pathogenic and toxic
organisms will be inhibited by acetic & lactic acid, so the starter
will most certainly be safe, even if it initially contained really
nasty bacteria.

David:

Why bother?

From reading this newsgroup over the years I'm sure you've seen that
questions about stinky very young starters are fairly common. It happened to
me last time I made one, a few days later it was fine. I imagine that once
Bob gets a little experience under his belt he will come to have a better
understanding of how this stuff behaves.

-Mike

"amateur" amateur@home wrote in message
...


day one ... no activity ....smells of batter
day two ... bubbles, few. Not smelling good at all
day three ... bubbles ... smells of baby vomit
day four .... fermentation stopped ...separated into a layer
of flour and one of liquid.... smells of baby vomit
day five .... quite dead ? baby vomit ... I would have chucked
it.
day six ... suddenly "exploded". Climbed right up jar,
overflowed, had a different smell.
day seven ... subsided ... but has a fruity smell.


I had a similar experience last time I made a starter. After the first day I
had activity and it had a nasty smell. I just kept with it, it died down as
well, and somewhere around the fifth or sixth day it was acting and smelling
like a 'normal' starter. I don't think this is uncommon behavior for a brand
new starter.

-Mike

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 07:16:33 -0600, "Mike Pearce"
wrote:

I imagine that once
Bob gets a little experience under his belt he will come to have a better
understanding of how this stuff behaves.

As I mentioned I am heavily conditioned by my beer making experiences.
Any tainted smell and I tossed the whole 5 gallon bucket full.

I am also conditioned from my 40 years experience cooking BBQ. If a
piece of pork or chicken smells the slightest bit off, into the
garbage it goes. That's not true of beef - the stinkier it is up to a
point, the more tender it is - called "ageing". And I do age my own
beef.

But pork and chicken can make you deathly sick if they are even the
slightest bit tainted. I know the hard way - all day sessions on the
throne for breaking that rule.

Perhaps I am over-reacting to what the poster characterized as a
"vomit" smell. Maybe she meant "off color" instead. Yet she was very
graphic, and so I reacted on the safe side by advising her to toss it.
I would not want to be responsible for advising her to do something
that resulted in poisoning her family.

Every starter that I have made or attempted to make didn't smell bad
enough to throw out - although one came close - the one that sat
around dormant several days and finally responded to a program of
forced feeding. It has a slight off color smell but not anything that
I would characterize as "vomit".

If you make a bad batch of beer - the kind with pond scum floating on
the surface - you will know in very graphic terms what a "vomit" smell
is like. I mean it will literally smell like a mix of vomit and feces.
Even the most off color odor I have experienced making starters thus
far doesn't come anywhere near close to that disgusting smell.

Speaking of sanitation issues, I finally got that book by Nancy
Silverton from the library. I notice she does emphasize sanitation at
the outset - something that most people who write about sourdough
starters don't bother with. Then she turns right around and advocates
sticking your hands into the starter and playing with the bubbles.

Is everyone associated with this sourdough thing balmy or something? I
would no more put my hands into starter even if I had surgical gloves
on.

"America Online said it scanned 40 million e-mail attachments
on Wednesday - about four times the average daily volume - and
found more than 23 million copies of the Sobig.F virus."

Consider yourself fortunate if your email address is not
in someone's address book on AOL. Consider yourself even
more fortunate if you do not know anyone who uses AOL.

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 07:20:35 -0600, "Mike Pearce"
wrote:

I had a similar experience last time I made a starter. After the first day I
had activity and it had a nasty smell. I just kept with it, it died down as
well, and somewhere around the fifth or sixth day it was acting and smelling
like a 'normal' starter. I don't think this is uncommon behavior for a brand
new starter.

The very first starter that I made that activated was like that. But
it was not so nasty a smell that I had to throw it away. Then all the
other starters I have made, which is three more, have not had any bad
smell whatsoever.

But then that could be the result of over-cautious sanitation
practices. For example, that first starter above was made in a plastic
container, which I had taken from inventory of clean dishes but
otherwise not sanitized. Then beginning with the next starter, I used
glass jars which I put thru a simple sanitation procedure of hand
washing them with dish detergent, rinsing thoroughly with tap water
and then rinsing 3 times with filtered water.

Could it be that sanitation is really more of a problem than people
are willing to admit?

Bob

--

"America Online said it scanned 40 million e-mail attachments
on Wednesday - about four times the average daily volume - and
found more than 23 million copies of the Sobig.F virus."

Consider yourself fortunate if your email address is not
in someone's address book on AOL. Consider yourself even
more fortunate if you do not know anyone who uses AOL.

Bob wrote:

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 07:20:35 -0600, "Mike Pearce"
wrote:

I had a similar experience last time I made a starter. After the first day I
had activity and it had a nasty smell. I just kept with it, it died down as
well, and somewhere around the fifth or sixth day it was acting and smelling
like a 'normal' starter. I don't think this is uncommon behavior for a brand
new starter.

The very first starter that I made that activated was like that. But
it was not so nasty a smell that I had to throw it away. Then all the
other starters I have made, which is three more, have not had any bad
smell whatsoever.

But then that could be the result of over-cautious sanitation
practices. For example, that first starter above was made in a plastic
container, which I had taken from inventory of clean dishes but
otherwise not sanitized. Then beginning with the next starter, I used
glass jars which I put thru a simple sanitation procedure of hand
washing them with dish detergent, rinsing thoroughly with tap water
and then rinsing 3 times with filtered water.

Could it be that sanitation is really more of a problem than people
are willing to admit?


I think it goes the opposite way. Milk that has soured stinks. But sourdough
starters develop antibacterial properties that destroy other bacteria present
so, even if the starter started out with an unpleasant smell, it will
eventually dissapear. Consider that stinky soured milk probably contains some
variety of an acidophilous bacteria and you probably end up with cheese, not
the Andromeda Strain.

Feeding a starter, even one that has a strange smell eventually gets rid of
any non-sourdough bacteria. What you had when you got stinky beer was not
something you were going to continue feeding until it started smelling
pleasant so you were advised right to dump it. In this case you have something
that probably not gotten to the right stage and just needs more feedings.

One thing that has been going through all the comments on how to build a
starter is that a new starter should be fed several times and that patience is
of the essence.

Do a google search for sourdough and antibacterial and you will find a lot of
articles on the subject.

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:14:59 GMT, AM wrote:

One thing that has been going through all the comments on how to build a
starter is that a new starter should be fed several times and that patience is
of the essence.

Yes, I have found that the feeding schedule in that article from the
National Baking Center works quite well on "natural starters".

But I still think it is important to maintain sanitary procedures, if
for no other reason than not being sanitary can lead you down the
wrong path, albeit only temporary. IOW, it is my opinion at this stage
in my evolution as a starter aficionado that sanitation causes the
activation of starters to be more predictable.

But then who am I to form an opinion on this subject. Go ahead and
play with the bubbles if it turns you on. :-)


Bob

--

"America Online said it scanned 40 million e-mail attachments
on Wednesday - about four times the average daily volume - and
found more than 23 million copies of the Sobig.F virus."

Consider yourself fortunate if your email address is not
in someone's address book on AOL. Consider yourself even
more fortunate if you do not know anyone who uses AOL.

Thanks to everyone for the replies. Last night when I got home the
starter smelled no better than it had that morning -- it stank like
garbage to the point that I was nauseated by the smell. I considered the
cleaning procedures in the FAQ, but since I haven't invested very much
time in this starter (and what's the point of spending time cleaning a
starter that may have sucked anyway,) I figured that it would be just as
easy to start a new one. So this time I thoroughly cleaned and poured
boiling water over everything that would come in contact with the starter
and will be leaving it at room temperature all the time (no more in the
oven with the lightbulb on.) If this one goes stinky, I'll keep going
with the feeding and waiting just to see if it improves. This morning it
was much less bubbly and smelly (no gross smell at all) than my first one
had been after the first night (it had already started smelling garbage-y
at that point,) so things are already looking better. Creating a starter
is an interesting experience.

Jen

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:26:30 -0500, Jennifer Johnston
wrote:

Creating a starter
is an interesting experience.

Creating a starter that doesn't stink is an even more interesting
experience.

Sanitation Rules!

Bob

--

"America Online said it scanned 40 million e-mail attachments
on Wednesday - about four times the average daily volume - and
found more than 23 million copies of the Sobig.F virus."

Consider yourself fortunate if your email address is not
in someone's address book on AOL. Consider yourself even
more fortunate if you do not know anyone who uses AOL.

* amateur amateur@home 2003-11-05:
just left it,with the lid loosely on, no mixing, no feeding, nothing,
except every day I examined it, and smelt it.
day one ... no activity ....smells of batter
day two ... bubbles, few. Not smelling good at all
day three ... bubbles ... smells of baby vomit
day four .... fermentation stopped ...separated into a layer
of flour and one of liquid.... smells of baby vomit
day five .... quite dead ? baby vomit ... I would have chucked
it.
day six ... suddenly "exploded". Climbed right up jar,
overflowed, had a different smell.
day seven ... subsided ... but has a fruity smell.

A very interesting experiment! I would not have guessed this result. I
have always fed the culture several times before reaching this stage.
Very surprised to see activity take off like that after such a long time
without feeding.

Took a spoonful of that, mixed it with a cup of flour and half
a cup of water. Next day, when it was at its zenith, made some really
good tasting bread.

I would have gone through a couple more feeding cycles using dilutions
of 3:1, 5:1 or more before actually making the first loaf of bread. I
just feel safer knowing I have diluted away any toxic byproducts
produced in the early stages.

Thanks for the excellent post, Mr/Ms Amateur. Nice to find something
worth reading hidden amongst all the ignorant trash talk found here
recently.

--
Steve W
s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 07:16:33 -0600, "Mike Pearce"
wrote:


"Feuer" wrote in message ...


Bob, you are a ****ing idiot. Since you don't know anything about
the actual safety issues involved in sourdough, why don't you shut
up about them?

David
Note: A starter kept through 14 quadruplings will be diluted
by a factor of 4^14=16^7= over 268 million to one. If these
feedings happen in the course of one week, pathogenic and toxic
organisms will be inhibited by acetic & lactic acid, so the starter
will most certainly be safe, even if it initially contained really
nasty bacteria.

David:

Why bother?

From reading this newsgroup over the years I'm sure you've seen that
questions about stinky very young starters are fairly common. It happened to
me last time I made one, a few days later it was fine. I imagine that once
Bob gets a little experience under his belt he will come to have a better
understanding of how this stuff behaves.

Bob may learn about starters, but I don't think there is much hope
he'll stop being a confrontational weenie.

Just to confirm, in part, what David said...
http://dna2z.com/projects/lacid.html

"In the last decade, there has been extensive research into the use of
lactic acid bacteria to control pathogenic and perishing
microorganisms in food. There are three main conditions for an optimal
lactic acid fermentation: Addition of a sufficient amount of
fermentable carbohydrates; Reduced pO2 during the fermentation process
and storage of the fermented product, and; Rapid multiplication of the
starter culture and sufficient production of lactic acid. In addition,
different factors are known to influence the preservative action of
lactic acid bacteria in meat products. The main factors for successful
preservation of meat products a A low pH (4.5 to prevent growth of
unwanted bacteria); A substantial amount of non-dissociated organic
acid molecules; Buffering capacity of the substrate; Hydrogen
peroxide; Competition with other bacteria for nutrients; Production of
antibiotics and bacteriocins, and; Decreased redox potential[4]. A
major concern for refrigerated foods is the possibility of temperature
abuse during distribution, retailing, or by the consumer

Boron

Mike Pearce wrote:

From reading this newsgroup over the years I'm sure you've seen that
questions about stinky very young starters are fairly common. It happened to
me last time I made one, a few days later it was fine. I imagine that once
Bob gets a little experience under his belt he will come to have a better
understanding of how this stuff behaves.

Ezzackly. But Bob's understanding of hygiene seems to get in the way
of his understanding of bread. A little knowledge is a dangerous
thing.

David

Bob wrote:

I am also conditioned from my 40 years experience cooking BBQ. If a
piece of pork or chicken smells the slightest bit off, into the
garbage it goes. That's not true of beef - the stinkier it is up to a
point, the more tender it is - called "ageing". And I do age my own
beef.

Wow Bob. Wow. I never thought you were brilliant, but I thought
that maybe you could tell by sight a microbial culture from a piece
of meat.

Speaking of sanitation issues, I finally got that book by Nancy
Silverton from the library. I notice she does emphasize sanitation at
the outset - something that most people who write about sourdough
starters don't bother with. Then she turns right around and advocates
sticking your hands into the starter and playing with the bubbles.

Is everyone associated with this sourdough thing balmy or something? I
would no more put my hands into starter even if I had surgical gloves
on.

Well then, you are a philosopher of hygiene rather than a baker.
I have never even _heard_ of a baker who didn't touch his bread
dough. And just to prevent confusion among the certain people,
I will note that properly maintained starter is almost identical
to bread dough (or batter).

David

Jennifer Johnston wrote:

easy to start a new one. So this time I thoroughly cleaned and poured
boiling water over everything that would come in contact with the starter

Thoroughly unnecessary. Bakers clean their equipment with soap and
hot water; they clean the tables on which the bread is made by scraping
them with a flat blade and occasionally oiling them. Are the bakers
trying to poison their customers? No: these are the accepted
procedures for cleaning in bakeries that are almost universally
accepted by health authorities around the world.


and will be leaving it at room temperature all the time (no more in the
oven with the lightbulb on.)

An excellent idea. Warm fermentation is generally reserved for the
final fermentation (proofing) of bread, when it is used at all.

If this one goes stinky, I'll keep going
with the feeding and waiting just to see if it improves. This morning it
was much less bubbly and smelly (no gross smell at all) than my first one
had been after the first night (it had already started smelling garbage-y
at that point,) so things are already looking better. Creating a starter
is an interesting experience.

Don't expect any consistency the first 2-3 days. Just push through
and within a week or two you'll get something usable.

David

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:45:17 -0500, Boron Elgar
wrote:

Bob may learn about starters, but I don't think there is much hope
he'll stop being a confrontational weenie.

Jeez, there does not seem to be any end to the 13-year olds around
this place.

Bugger off, troll, before your mommy finds out you are playing with
her computer.

If you must indulge your afflictions, go play with your sodomite pal,
David Feuer. Between the two of you I am sure you can find lots of
ways to make sewage into edible food.

Bob

--

"America Online said it scanned 40 million e-mail attachments
on Wednesday - about four times the average daily volume - and
found more than 23 million copies of the Sobig.F virus."

Consider yourself fortunate if your email address is not
in someone's address book on AOL. Consider yourself even
more fortunate if you do not know anyone who uses AOL.

Bob wrote:

If you must indulge your afflictions, go play with your sodomite pal,
David Feuer. Between the two of you I am sure you can find lots of
ways to make sewage into edible food.

Ahem
Sodomite?

David