Hello there--

Much thanks in advance for where ever this email
travels and for the eyeballs that take the time to
read it.

You probably encounter this question from time to
time, but I am getting a lot of conflicting advice.

I've been trying to create a natural sourdough starter
for a few years now. I've been successful getting
natural starters, but alas, none are sour.

I'm in the East, Rockaway Beach, NYC. I'm going under
the assumption that I can create a sourdough culture
over here...

I've tried organic flours (unbleached white, rye, and
wheat in various combos) and filtered water. I've
tried organic grapes with the above-- no luck. I've
always gotten starters, no real problem, but none
sour. I've lagged feedings on them as well, some for
periods of several days... others more quickly. No
difference, really.

I've even tried cheating (out of frustration), by
opening Lactobacillus Acidophillus gel caps and
pouring the contents into a flour-water mixture.
Voila! Sourness! After a few feedings, it hummed
along. I was cheating, but, I finally had the
sourness.

After only another week or two, the yeasts took over
and the bacteria seemed to be non-existent. No more
sourness. It disappeared. All gone. No more.
Bye-bye.

One thing I have not done yet, but probably should, is
temp control. I have fermented at 68-70F pretty
consistently. I have heard that the temp should be
closer to 90F.

I did visit Acme in SF and they proof at 68F, I
believe. I didn't ask what temp they kept their
starter at, but I did notice that it seemd to be out
in the same area as the proofing loaves.

I dunno. Short of the temp issue (which I will try
next) I am looking for ideas.

I don't want to stoop to buying a culture!

Any input appreciated.

Ron Farrell


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On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:38:55 -0800 (PST), Ron Farrell
wrote:

I've been trying to create a natural sourdough starter
for a few years now. I've been successful getting
natural starters, but alas, none are sour.

Howdy Ron,

I am not picking at words when I ask:

Are you saying that the starter is not sour, or the bread you bake
with it is not sour?

I ask because the taste of the starter is really not relevant to the
taste of the bread.

Please respond to my question above and we can take it from there...

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Ron Farrell wrote:
..
After only another week or two, the yeasts took over
and the bacteria seemed to be non-existent. No more
sourness. It disappeared. All gone. No more.
Bye-bye.

One thing I have not done yet, but probably should, is
temp control. I have fermented at 68-70F pretty
consistently. I have heard that the temp should be
closer to 90F.

Temp is one of the main factors.

May I point you the

http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#058

It's not accurate information because you don't know what actually is
growing in your starter and the growth maxima are very much dependend on
species. But it gives you some idea what the influence can be. A graph
would be better to see the temperture dependency, the maximums and where
they overlap. Dan Wing shows some in his book.

That's in celsius, here is a conversion from F to C (left column is F):

64 17
66 18
68 20
70 21
72 22
74 23
76 24
78 25
80 26
82 27
84 28
86 30
88 31
90 32
92 33
94 34
96 35
98 36
100 37
102 38
104 40
106 41

If you would be able to have a relatively constant temperature space at
maybe 88 F, figure out your starter phases (
http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#GC ) at that temperature
and do regular refreshments for maybe three days, keeping it at optimum
growth you'll probably see a change more in your favor.

Btw. the LB's from the pill, probably Acidophilus and Bifi-something you
used won't stay in sourdough environment.

I would bet that you have SD native LB's in your starter and just keep
them subdued somehow.


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Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

"Ron Farrell" wrote in message=20
news:mailman.6.1067544678.57077.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...

You probably encounter this question from time to
time, but I am getting a lot of conflicting advice.

Too many are making SD bread. We try to limit the
number by obfuscating.

I've been trying to create a natural sourdough starter
for a few years now. I've been successful getting
natural starters, but alas, none are sour.

Starters are not supposed to be sour. It is the bread
that is supposed to be sour but even that view is losing
popularity.

Rye starters, however, are miserably sour. Rye bread
thrives on misery.

[ ... ]

I don't want to stoop to buying a culture!

You could stoop even further and get a one free.

Any input appreciated.

OK, appreciate that!

---
DickA

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 11:56:09 -0500, Don Hellen
wrote:

I don't want to stoop to buying a culture!

You could stoop even further and get a one free.

If you want a SF starter, try friends of carl:

http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/

Or, you can buy a reasonable inexpensive one by going to
ebay and using the search terms "sourdough starter." Some
sell ( through the "buy it now" option) for less than $6.00
or, if you are lucky, you might place a bid and get one for
as little as $3.99.

Yankee Harvest markets Mister Baker SF Sourdough Starter for around $7
which includes First Class USPS shipping. Mine came in a couple days.

http://www.yankeegrocery.com/sourdough_bread.html

I haven't tried it yet and will probably store it in the refrigerator
until after I sort out my "natural starter" experiment.

Of course there's Ed Wood's Sourdough International

http://www.sourdo.com/

but he is far too expensive.

I may change my mind later depending on the success of the other
starters, but for now I can spend $20 on something else.

Also I got a SF starter from King Arthur Flours for $7 ppd. I wrote
and asked for an ingredient list and the reply said: bacteria, yeast
and lactose. They forgot the beef drippings.

Like the Yankee Harvest starter, this one is also in the refrigerator
awaiting the outcome of my experiment. In this case you are instructed
to use 1/4 tsp to make the sponge and then use it all for the dough.
They do not provide instructions for making a traditional active
starter for storage in the refrigerator.

I had heard that KA does have instructions for stretching the packet
to about 50 batches, but the reply claimed not to know but promised to
research it for me. Even if all you get out of the packet is the 12
batches they allude to, that's only around 60 cents per batch, which
for me amounts to 2 lbs of dough - enough for 3 plump baguettes.

The claimed advantage of not maintaining an active starter is not only
do you not have the hassle of messing with it, but there is less
chance that it will develop into a "house starter" over time. Since I
could not get several attempts to make a "house starter" to work, I
doubt I have any "house organisms" to contaminate an active starter.

What I'm thinking is that if you've been unsuccessful for a
long time, why not start with something that is known to
work?

That Yankee Harvest starter has been written up on the Internet enough
to be credible. I believe it's been around a good while, so it must
have something going for it.

Of course, that's you decision, and if you simply must make
a starter yourself,

See bloody details of the pain and agony of making your first natural
starter on the thread entitled "Natural Starter Experiment". Ignore
the lone troll post - he's desperate for attention because he has what
psychiatrists call a Justifiable Inferiority Complex.

you can keep on trying.

That's what I did, thanks to the help and encouagement of friendly
posters here.

It's beginning to look like I might just have it working this time -
it is now quite active and has developed a deep earthy sour smell.

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 18:04:31 GMT, (Bob) wrote:

Clarification:

...you are instructed to use 1/4 tsp to make the sponge and then use it all for the dough.

I meant:

Use all of the *sponge* for the dough, not all of the dry starter in
the packet. They actually have you using commercial yeast in the
dough.