The purpose of this thread is to pass along a written record of my
latest attempt to make a natural starter, which is defined as one in
which the organisms come solely from the flour - or so we would be led
to believe. I sincerely hope this works.

As I noted in another thread, I just got back from Whole Food Market
and they had pretty much what I wanted but only in a whole wheat
flour. It is freshly milled (on a weekly basis) and it is organic
whole grain flour with everything from the wheat berries present.

I made a mixture of 75% of this freshly milled organic whole grain
flour and 25% Arrowhead whole grain rye flour I got last week. I will
follow the recipe for feeding that comes from both Samartha, the
r.f.s. FAQ and a National Baking Center article. I am going to cover
it and keep it in an oven with the light on. I will monitor the
temperature.

The actual record begins in the next post to this thread. That way
there will be an individual post for each step. Any constructive
comments you have along the way will be welcomed.

10/26/03 2:00 pm CT

I mixed 1/2 cup of the flour mix (75% wheat flour, 25% rye flour) with
1/2 cup distilled water in a 3 quart wide-mouth rubbermaid plastic
container. After stirring the flour-water mixture vigorously to
incorporate air into it, I put the lid on loosely and placed it in the
oven with the light on. I have an accurate thermometer in the oven and
the temperature is exactly 80F. I will let this sit for 12 hours, at
which time I will feed it, bubbles or not.

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:46:30 GMT, (Bob) wrote:

10/26/03 8:00 pm CT

I am not trying to overpost to this thread, but I do want to let you
know I am still on top of this exepriment and that I did check on a
critical parameter - temperature.

In the 4 hours since I last reported, I experimented with the oven
light on and off. I found that with the light on, the inside
temperature is 85F and with the light off it is 80F.

This is, as I understand it, within the acceptable range for starters.

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 02:33:07 GMT, (Bob) wrote:

10/27/03 2:00 am CT

There is no activity whatsoever. The oven temperature is 85F.

The mixture looks the same as it did 12 hours ago when I first mixed
it. It looks like a container with wet sand in the bottom. There is no
liquid separation.

I am going to leave it alone for now and check it in the morning. The
r.f.s. FAQ and the National Baking Center article both say to wait
about 24 hours from the beginning to feed it if there is no activity.

10/27/03 6:00 am CT

We have bubbles - lots of bubbles. In fact we have foam - double the
original volume. It looks as if I had put commercial baker's yeast in
it - which I did not.

The temperature inside the oven rose to 90F. The container is
slightly warm to the touch. It is my understanding that you can go as
high as 110F before killing off starter organisms. If I shut the light
off, the oven will drop to ambient temperature which is 70F.

I fed the starter 1/2 cup of the flour mix and 1/2 cup of distilled
water, stirred it vigorously and returned it covered to the oven. I
did not remove any starter before I fed it. I am thinking about
removing 1/2 of the starter before I feed it again. That way I will be
doubling the starter with 1/2 cup flour and 1/2 cup water. I plan to
feed it twice a day at 6:00 am and 6:00 pm for 3 more days.

We have a valuable control in this experiment. Because I was
unsuccessful in starting cultures made of bagged flours, even with the
lid off the container to catch organisms from the air, we should be
able to conclude that my kitchen is reasonably free from starter
organisms.

Therefore, there is only one conclusion we can reach - this culture
has started because of natural organisms in the freshly-milled organic
whole wheat flour I just bought. Someone tell Samartha that he has
been vindicated - but only if you use the correct ingredients.

Your comments, please.

Bob wrote:

10/27/03 6:00 am CT

We have bubbles - lots of bubbles. In fact we have foam - double the
original volume. It looks as if I had put commercial baker's yeast in
it - which I did not.

The temperature inside the oven rose to 90F. The container is
slightly warm to the touch. It is my understanding that you can go as
high as 110F before killing off starter organisms. If I shut the light
off, the oven will drop to ambient temperature which is 70F.

I fed the starter 1/2 cup of the flour mix and 1/2 cup of distilled
water, stirred it vigorously and returned it covered to the oven. I
did not remove any starter before I fed it. I am thinking about
removing 1/2 of the starter before I feed it again. That way I will be
doubling the starter with 1/2 cup flour and 1/2 cup water. I plan to
feed it twice a day at 6:00 am and 6:00 pm for 3 more days.

We have a valuable control in this experiment. Because I was
unsuccessful in starting cultures made of bagged flours, even with the
lid off the container to catch organisms from the air, we should be
able to conclude that my kitchen is reasonably free from starter
organisms.

Therefore, there is only one conclusion we can reach - this culture
has started because of natural organisms in the freshly-milled organic
whole wheat flour I just bought. Someone tell Samartha that he has
been vindicated - but only if you use the correct ingredients.

Your comments, please.

Your assumption may or may not be correct. The organisms may have come (and
probably did) from the flour but you cannot rule out their coming from the
ambient. You are assuming that previous failures are 100% certainties of a
kitchen totally free of starter organisms. It is not that clean-cut.

Anyway, congratulations on getting some results. Now to the crucial test: will
it make bread?

Note that you will not get immediate sourdough taste. It takes a few weeks for
flavor to develop.

Bert

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:10:13 GMT,
wrote:

Your assumption may or may not be correct. The organisms may have come (and
probably did) from the flour but you cannot rule out their coming from the
ambient. You are assuming that previous failures are 100% certainties of a
kitchen totally free of starter organisms. It is not that clean-cut.

Actually I did have a very small amount of activity in the earlier
experiments, but it went nowhere no matter what I tried. I even got
****ed off at one that had sat there for several days and threw a
potato slice in it. Nothing happened.

I am beginning to think some of the bagged-flour manufacturers put
something in their product to preserve freshness that kills off any
attempts to make a starter. It sure would have been helpful if people
who claimed to make natural starter would have told us what kind of
flour they used.

Anyway, congratulations on getting some results. Now to the crucial test: will
it make bread?

It is still too early to tell - I want to see it double in a
substantial manner several times. I cleaned the inside of the
container with a spatula so I could see any foam trail that I might
miss because it collapsed, and I marked the outside with a piece of
black tape. I should be able to figure out if it erupts sometime in
the next 12 hours. If it does sooner than 12 hours, like in 6 hours, I
am going to change the feeding schedule.

Note that you will not get immediate sourdough taste. It takes a few weeks for
flavor to develop.

As I understand it, after the culture has gone thru its initial
feeding program - in which case it has risen and fallen several times
- it is now ready for the refrigerator. I am not sure what I need to
do at that stage to get it to become really sour.

Bob wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:10:13 GMT,
wrote:

Your assumption may or may not be correct. The organisms may have come (and
probably did) from the flour but you cannot rule out their coming from the
ambient. You are assuming that previous failures are 100% certainties of a
kitchen totally free of starter organisms. It is not that clean-cut.

Actually I did have a very small amount of activity in the earlier
experiments, but it went nowhere no matter what I tried. I even got
****ed off at one that had sat there for several days and threw a
potato slice in it. Nothing happened.

I am beginning to think some of the bagged-flour manufacturers put
something in their product to preserve freshness that kills off any
attempts to make a starter. It sure would have been helpful if people
who claimed to make natural starter would have told us what kind of
flour they used.

Anyway, congratulations on getting some results. Now to the crucial test: will
it make bread?

It is still too early to tell - I want to see it double in a
substantial manner several times. I cleaned the inside of the
container with a spatula so I could see any foam trail that I might
miss because it collapsed, and I marked the outside with a piece of
black tape. I should be able to figure out if it erupts sometime in
the next 12 hours. If it does sooner than 12 hours, like in 6 hours, I
am going to change the feeding schedule.

Note that you will not get immediate sourdough taste. It takes a few weeks for
flavor to develop.

As I understand it, after the culture has gone thru its initial
feeding program - in which case it has risen and fallen several times
- it is now ready for the refrigerator. I am not sure what I need to
do at that stage to get it to become really sour.

Although you can control the sourness by the amount of starter you use in your
dough (less - more sour) a young starter probably will not sour immediately.
But do test to see if it will rise dough. Try a simple white bread dough, just
water, AP white flour (I like KA) and starter.

WAit until you have done a few more feedings, it may not be ready.

Bert

"Bob" wrote in message =
...

[ ... ]

I am not sure what I need to do at that stage to get it to become =
really sour.

Well, you might try looking at the FAQ's.

The point is that it is the bread that is supposed to be sour, not the =
starter.
But, now that you have had that explained to you, you will make a=20
special effort not to believe it, even to prove it's wrong. And so it
unfortunately will go.

You know, "Bob", almost everybody here has raised a sourdough culture.

Do you have your family come in and hold your hand while you sit in the
bathroom?

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:24:25 GMT, "Dick Adams"
wrote:

I am not sure what I need to do at that stage to get it to become =
really sour.

Well, you might try looking at the FAQ's.

The point is that it is the bread that is supposed to be sour, not the =
starter.
But, now that you have had that explained to you, you will make a=20
special effort not to believe it, even to prove it's wrong. And so it
unfortunately will go.

You know, "Bob", almost everybody here has raised a sourdough culture.

Do you have your family come in and hold your hand while you sit in the
bathroom?

YAWN

10/27/03 3:00 pm CT

The starter continued to bubble away, rising about 50% of its unrisen
distance from the bottom of the container. It produced several rather
large bubbles, then quit doing anything. I stirred it and it fell back
to the initial level that I had marked with black tape.

So I figured it was time to feed it after 9 hours from its last
feeding. I poured out all but 1/2 cup and added 1/2 cup of the 75-25
flour mix and 1/2 cup of distilled water, stirred it vigorously put it
back in the 90F oven.

It appears that I am going to have to feed it on a 6-8 hour schedule
from now on. I will wait for it to rise and collapse before I feed it
again.

(Bob) wrote in message ...
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:24:25 GMT, "Dick Adams"
wrote:

I am not sure what I need to do at that stage to get it to become =
really sour.

Well, you might try looking at the FAQ's.

The point is that it is the bread that is supposed to be sour, not the =
starter.
But, now that you have had that explained to you, you will make a=20
special effort not to believe it, even to prove it's wrong. And so it
unfortunately will go.

You know, "Bob", almost everybody here has raised a sourdough culture.

Do you have your family come in and hold your hand while you sit in the
bathroom?
Gimme a break -- if the guy wants to post his results, there's plenty
of less experienced people that may enjoy comparing their own
endeavors with what is being posted. If you don't want to read it,
turn the page.

On 27 Oct 2003 14:45:29 -0800, (Nancy) wrote:

Gimme a break -- if the guy wants to post his results, there's plenty
of less experienced people that may enjoy comparing their own
endeavors with what is being posted. If you don't want to read it,
turn the page.

It is my sincere desire to learn from your comments. You all have
converted me from being just someone who bakes bread to a hobbyist -
so now I hold you responsible for assisting me in this hobby. :-)

If these posts help clear up some of the confusion, then I would like
to think perhaps I have returned the favor. I am trying to conduct
this as closely as I can to a scientific experiment without any
scientific equipment. But it is still too early to celebrate victory.

As the man said, the ultimate success lies with the finished loaf of
bread. Maybe this upcoming weekend I can proof the starter and bake a
loaf.

--
"Our country's a place of limitless hopes and
possibilities, and nowhere is that spirit more
alive than in the great nation of Texas."
--GW Bush, U.S. President from Texas

"One thing that makes George Bush such a great
president is that he does not govern according
to public opinion polls."
--John Cornyn, U.S. Senator from Texas

10/28/03 3:00 am CT

It has been 12 hours since I last fed the starter and there has been
no activity since. I just got done stirring it vigorously but did not
feed it. The temperature is still around 90F. If this behaves like
last time, I should see it take off later this morning, perhaps around
7:00 am.

The culture has a distinct earthy smell with a slight hint of beer
smell. It does not smell rancid. I should get a pH measuring device so
I can watch the production of lactic acid. Any recommendations for an
inexpensive unit?

10/28/03 6:00 pm CT

The starter is still dormant. Unless advised to the contrary, I am not
going to feed it until I see signs of activity. I fed it 27 hours ago,
and it did not respond. I see little use in wasting flour in yet
another possibly failed experiment.

It seems as though the second feeding makes it dormant. In the past
experiments further feeding did no good.

Why would this culture go dormant after being fed two times?