Hi all,

This weekend is about the fourth or fifth sourdough baking weekend, and I am
finally coming out with an acceptable all rye sourdough bread that I find
wonderful in taste, even though it is heavy (but not as heavy as the first
two bricks I made). Thanks for all the suggestions received from this group.

I have been looking at other all rye recipes, and notice that some require
kneading up to 30 minutes, and some do not mention kneading at all. The
basic recipes all seem very similar in ingredients, the only difference is
in kneading requirements.

My question: Is there enough gluten in rye that kneading it will make a
difference in how the bread rises? (I know there is much less in rye than in
wheat.)

My all rye dough seems very sticky, and I don't see how to effectively knead
it (I don't have a Kitchen-Aid...yet.). I tried kneading with a spoon in a
bowl on today's loaf, but the bread didn't seem different from my last
no-knead loaf.

How do you make your all-rye bread?

Regards,

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

"HeatherInSwampscott" wrote in message =
...

My question: Is there enough gluten in rye that kneading it will make =
a
difference in how the bread rises? (I know there is much less in rye =
than in
wheat.)

There is essentially no gluten in rye dough. All-rye bread takes a much =

different process than does white sourdough bread. That is why we have
samartha.net.

All-rye bread is for when you have been baking for years and mastered
most all of the techniques and procedures, but still feel you need one
more challenge.

Admixing rye flour with white flour effectively lowers the gluten =
content
of the product flour. Whole grain flours have little sharp edged =
particles
in them that interfere mightily with gas retention.

You might be interested in trying Ms. Kirk's Rugbroed. There is a link
for that at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html
That is less of a challenge what you seem to be attempting.

The only other practical solution is to become a disciple to Samartha.
Even at that, I don't think he generally does all-rye.

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com

"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...

You might be interested in trying Ms. Kirk's Rugbroed. There is a link
for that at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

Hi Dick,

I have tried that recipe, the one on the page you cited that calls for 10
minutes kneading. I like the bread I made using that recipe. It came out
very similar in taste and texture to a recipe I have that calls for no
kneading.

I was just wondering about the necessity of kneading an all rye dough, and
whether other people who bake an all-rye bread knead or not.

Thank you for your response,

Regards,

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:36:42 GMT, "HeatherInSwampscott"
wrote:

I have been looking at other all rye recipes, and notice that some require
kneading up to 30 minutes, and some do not mention kneading at all. The
basic recipes all seem very similar in ingredients, the only difference is
in kneading requirements.

Hi Heather,

Do they differ (significantly) in fermentation times?

Here's why I ask:

The "glue" in wheat breads is gluten. In rye, there is little if any
of that particular protein. The gas generated from the yeasts used in
rye breads is held by chemicals called pentosans. (I believe, but am
not certain, that these are also proteins.)

In any case, it is my understanding that kneading, whether using wheat
or rye, is just one way to generate these "gluey" materials. They can
also be generated chemically (visit a Wonder Bread factory for more),
or by hydration. This last is interesting he

If the dough is made, mixed enough so that there are not dry flour
pockets, and put aside, the gluten or pentosans, will be created.

So, with all that, you may have recipes that "substitute" time
(hydration) for kneading (mechanical) development.

And finally, do check Samartha's site. This guy knows his rye.

Have fun,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"HeatherInSwampscott" wrote in message =
...

I have tried that recipe, the one on the page you cited that calls for =
10
minutes kneading.

OK, well try this then:



Unfortunately, the web site referred to seems to have been taken down.
(Does anyone know where to find Christiane's fine pictures?)

Well, if all else fails, there is always http://samartha.net

---
DickA

Dick Adams wrote:

Unfortunately, the web site referred to seems to have been taken down.
(Does anyone know where to find Christiane's fine pictures?)

Neat site, thank you.
I went to the root of that page, and found this link, was this what you
were thinking of? My rye is somewhat between Backwert 4 and 5, with the
slight separation at the top crust, except my separation happens about
1/4 inch, right at the top crust.

http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~croehler/sourdough.htm

Well, if all else fails, there is always http://samartha.net

Yes, of course, I am very familiar with Samartha's site. I am not ready
for the 24 hour pumperknickle yet. And I have tried his half whole wheat
half other whole grain with success. I am happy with my loaf of all-rye
bread it tastes just fabulous, much better than the half wheat half rye.

I was just wondering why some all rye recipes call for kneading, and
some don't. I think Kenneth's reply has the answer, I will go back and
compare my list of all-rye recipes.

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

Dick Adams wrote:

Unfortunately, the web site referred to seems to have been taken down.
(Does anyone know where to find Christiane's fine pictures?)


Neat site, thank you.
I went to the root of that page, and found this link, was this what you
were thinking of? My rye is somewhat between Backwert 4 and 5, with the
slight separation at the top crust, except my separation happens about
1/4 inch, right at the top crust.

http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~croehler/sourdough.htm

Well, if all else fails, there is always http://samartha.net


Yes, of course, I am very familiar with Samartha's site. I am not ready
for the 24 hour pumperknickle yet. And I have tried his half whole wheat
half other whole grain with success. I am happy with my loaf of all-rye
bread it tastes just fabulous, much better than the half wheat half rye.

I was just wondering why some all rye recipes call for kneading, and
some don't. I think Kenneth's reply has the answer, I will go back and
compare my list of all-rye recipes.

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

Dick Adams wrote:

Unfortunately, the web site referred to seems to have been taken down.
(Does anyone know where to find Christiane's fine pictures?)

Neat site, thank you.
I went to the root of that page, and found this link, was this what you
were thinking of?

http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~croehler/sourdough.htm

My rye is somewhat between Backwert 4 and 5, with the
slight separation at the top crust, except my separation happens about
1/4 inch, right at the top crust. And my crumb is more compact, looking
more like Samartha's pumpernickle, but not so dark and with more holes.
And my loaf is baked in a pan.

Well, if all else fails, there is always http://samartha.net

Yes, of course, I am very familiar with Samartha's site. I am not ready
for the 24 hour pumperknickle yet. And I have tried his half whole wheat
half other whole grain with success. I am happy with my loaf of all-rye
bread it tastes just fabulous, much better than the half wheat half rye.

I was just wondering why some all rye recipes call for kneading, and
some don't. I think Kenneth's reply has the answer, I will go back and
compare my list of all-rye recipes.

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

Dick Adams wrote:

Unfortunately, the web site referred to seems to have been taken down.
(Does anyone know where to find Christiane's fine pictures?)

Neat site, thank you.
I went to the root of that page, and found this link, was this what you
were thinking of?

http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~croehler/sourdough.htm

My rye is somewhat between Backwert 4 and 5, with the
slight separation at the top crust, except my separation happens about
1/4 inch, right at the top crust. And my crumb is more compact, looking
more like Samartha's pumpernickle, but not so dark and with more holes.
And my loaf is baked in a pan.

Well, if all else fails, there is always http://samartha.net

Yes, of course, I am very familiar with Samartha's site. I am not ready
for the 24 hour pumperknickle yet. And I have tried his half whole wheat
half other whole grain with success. I am happy with my loaf of all-rye
bread it tastes just fabulous, much better than the half wheat half rye.

I was just wondering why some all rye recipes call for kneading, and
some don't. I think Kenneth's reply has the answer, I will go back and
compare my list of all-rye recipes.

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

Kenneth,

My understanding is that pentosans are polysaccharides (carbohydrates).

- Steve Brandt


"Kenneth" wrote in message
...
The "glue" in wheat breads is gluten. In rye, there is little if any
of that particular protein. The gas generated from the yeasts used in
rye breads is held by chemicals called pentosans. (I believe, but am
not certain, that these are also proteins.)

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:12:34 GMT, "Steve B"
wrote:

Kenneth,

My understanding is that pentosans are polysaccharides (carbohydrates).

- Steve Brandt


"Kenneth" wrote in message
.. .
The "glue" in wheat breads is gluten. In rye, there is little if any
of that particular protein. The gas generated from the yeasts used in
rye breads is held by chemicals called pentosans. (I believe, but am
not certain, that these are also proteins.)


Hi Steve,

I never met a carbohydrate that I did not like, and so, I thank you
g

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

of that particular protein. The gas generated from the yeasts used in
rye breads is held by chemicals called pentosans. (I believe, but am
not certain, that these are also proteins.)

As Steve said, they're carbohydrates. I _think_ they're sugars, but
please don't quote me on that. Unlike gluten, they are in the flour
from the start. If the dough is mixed without enough sour and left
for too long the pentosans will break down, ruining the bread.
Therefore, all good leavened 100% rye bread is sourdough.

David

In regards to mixing rye -

When I did my pumpernickel in a KA, the dough hook just would not do the
mixing, same with any other higher hydration doughs. This was extremely
frustrating: everything ready to go and the damn thing would not mix!
Just the dough hook cutting circles into the dough with nothing moving.

Now, thinking back, I could have used/tried another implement. There is
something like a paddle consisting mostly out of holes (if you know what
I mean;-) which could have worked.

The major frustration with the KA for me was the limited capacity so I
got a Magic Mill.
For a while, I was using the KA for mixing smaller amounts because it's
easier to clean but lately it's unused.

If you are able to utilize the amount of dough (I can mix 2 x 1500 g
loafs easily in one going which would cause the KA to start smoking and
requiring servicing) and can afford it, it's definitely worth
considering. The mixing process is very much different from a KA which
cuts with it's dough hook through the dough. The MM is
pressing/stretching which gives a different dough/gluten structure IMO.

But this has been covered many times over here and in other newsgroups.


As for kneading the rye - I am still experimental on this, same with
fermentation times. It's hard to find info on that (for me). Sure it's
less than with wheat. It's also probably a taste issue - how much sour
or taste you want. Can be done either all in the starter or some in the
starter and some in the final dough, in theory. What's done practically
in bakeries - who is doing full rye breads would know and probably won't
tell. Also, I really distrust US sources in rye procedures.

When I did the baking tests, the amount of water going into the dough
was amazing in comparison to wheat.

In essence, one would have to do a baking test for every flour or berry
bag - or batches thereof if you get more than one bag. And - I found
(untested hunch) that the light rye flour (50 lb bag) I had changed it's
property when I had it for maybe over 6 month.

The stickiness when handling the dough you overcome with wet hands -
bowl of cold water nearby and just keep it wet and slimy.


Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:59:43 -0700, Samartha Deva
wrote:

and just keep it wet and slimy.

Hi Samartha,

Hmmm... I assume you are still talking about the bread here g.

Your "cutting circles" description is exactly right. I have had that
problem and as you suggest, the "paddle" works well.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

You can feel comfortable being quoted. They are polysaccharides (poly =
many; saccharide = sugar). In other words, they are polymeric sugars.

- Steve Brandt

"Feuer" wrote in message ...
... I _think_ they're sugars, but please don't quote me on that.