Ed Bechtel wrote:
Ed responds: Jeff, I've copied the recipe and started the
first innoculation. One thing that is confusing is how one
incorporates the last 10 percent flour or last 1 Tbsp of flour
as quoted above. I visualize kneading and folding the dough to
incorporate the last bit of flour which would obviously burst
this floured bubble you describe. What am I missing?

The dough mass is not a "floured bubble", it is an expanded, very
soft dough mass.

Usually, working with whole rye flour is a real shock to someone
that is used to working only with white flour.

Now I will try to answer your question. By the time one gets to
the remaining 1 Tbsp of flour, the dough mass will have developed
enough cohesiveness so that it can be easily manipulated (gently
folded and pressed) without sticking.

I suggest that you begin with the "beginner" method, and when you
become confortable with it, then you are ready for the "advanced"
method.

--
Jeff Sheinberg
for email addr: remove "l1." and change ".invalid" to ".net"

"Jeff Sheinberg" wrote in message=20
...

... I suggest that you begin with the "beginner" method, and when you
become confortable with it, then you are ready for the "advanced"=20
method.

OK, Jeff, I went back and read your post
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm....supernews.com

Clearly you are walking the walk, but you seem not to be talking the
talk. For instance, you have not said anything about:

Anfrishsauer
Anstellgut
Grundsauer
Sauerteig
Vollsauer
usw...

Nor have you mentioned:

Detmold 3-stage

How can one expect to become advanced without familiarity with the
advanced concepts?

(You do not even state pH values.)

You seem to be saying that all-rye is easy. Who could believe that?

---
DickA
Perennial beginner
Historic Noobie

Dick Adams wrote:

You seem to be saying that all-rye is easy. Who could believe
that?

I was referring to "all-rye", using the supplied recipe. I did
not mention "pumpernickel" at all.

--
Jeff Sheinberg
for email addr: remove "l1." and change ".invalid" to ".net"

"Jeff Sheinberg" wrote in message =
...
Dick Adams wrote:

You seem to be saying that all-rye is easy. Who could believe
that?

I was referring to "all-rye", using the supplied recipe. I did
not mention "pumpernickel" at all.

Neither did I. Seems to me the pumpernickel may be easiest=20
because it is made in a pan -- it just takes a long time to cook,=20
as I understand it. (Maybe a crock pot would be good.)

All-rye boules are tough because there is not enough gluten in
rye dough to hold them together while they rise (if they in fact do
rise).

So most of the fuss and bother with all-rye loaves is to prevent the
enzymatic breakdown of the starches which must be depended
upon to hold gas and retain the loaf shape. That is done by being
very careful to keep the pH low ( ~ 4.5) in the several=20
preferments and in the dough.

Pan rye loaves are much easier. Even I can do them, after a
fashion, using the previously-mentioned very simple process. =20
It seems to me that you could do your all-rye more easily=20
since you are using pans also. I do not know what the purpose
of kneading all-rye dough might be, since there is no gluten to
develop.

May your kitchen faeries not bog down in rye glop.

---
DickA
=20

Dick,

Did you perhaps mean pH ~4.5? A pH ~4.5 can bring you into the neutral
and alkaline ranges.

- Steve Brandt

"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...

.... That is done by being very careful to keep the pH low ( ~ 4.5) in the
several
preferments and in the dough.

"Steve B" wrote in message =
news:PjZpb.79176$275.223106@attbi_s53...

Did you perhaps mean pH ~4.5?

Right! A low pH is needed to inhibit amylases.

'Scuse my typo. Thanks for your attention.

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 02:33:19 GMT, "Steve B"
wrote:

Did you perhaps mean pH ~4.5? A pH ~4.5 can bring you into the neutral
and alkaline ranges.

Although it has been over 40 years since my last chemistry class, I
thought that a pH of 7 was considered neutral and anything above 7 was
considered alkaline. A pH of 4.5 would therefore be decidedly acidic.

Something about 10^-14 comes to mind in the mass action expression

[H] [OH] ~ 10^-14

which means that neutral water has a concentration of hydrogen ions
of 10^-7 moles per liter - that is, a pH of 7.

Am I wrong on this - it has been a very long time?

"Steve B" wrote in message news:PjZpb.79176$275.223106@attbi_s53...
Dick,

Did you perhaps mean pH ~4.5? A pH ~4.5 can bring you into the neutral
and alkaline ranges.

- Steve Brandt

"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...

... That is done by being very careful to keep the pH low ( ~ 4.5) in the
several
preferments and in the dough.

A pH or minus 4.5 or -4.5? Does a negative pH value exist like
negative temperrature reading.I can not rememberr from my general
chemistry class several decades ago. that if its possible for the
hydrogen ion concentration to have negative values?

How can that be feasible a pH range from 1 to 14.From what I remember,
The lower values is in the acidiic side(units 1 to 6) while the pH
readings starting from above 7 is going to the alkaline side. The
middle value 7 means neutral.
Roy

Roy Basan wrote:

"Steve B" wrote in message news:PjZpb.79176$275.223106@attbi_s53...
Dick,

Did you perhaps mean pH ~4.5? A pH ~4.5 can bring you into the neutral
and alkaline ranges.

- Steve Brandt

"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...

... That is done by being very careful to keep the pH low ( ~ 4.5) in the
several
preferments and in the dough.

A pH or minus 4.5 or -4.5?


Dick and Steve used the tilde character (meaning 'approximately'), not the minus. Perhaps the font on your news reader does not show the difference well. I'd recommend using one of the courier fonts for reading newsgroups.
--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

On 5 Nov 2003 05:52:44 -0800, (Roy Basan) wrote:

A pH or minus 4.5 or -4.5? Does a negative pH value exist like
negative temperrature reading.I can not rememberr from my general
chemistry class several decades ago. that if its possible for the
hydrogen ion concentration to have negative values?

The hydrogen ion concentration [H] is an exponential in the negative
pH (aka "potential of hydrogen). That is,

[H] = 10^pH.

That concentration is in moles per liter.

How can that be feasible a pH range from 1 to 14.From what I remember,
The lower values is in the acidiic side(units 1 to 6) while the pH
readings starting from above 7 is going to the alkaline side. The
middle value 7 means neutral.

The mass action expression for neutral water is

[H] [OH] = 10^-14

and since the hydrogen ion concentration is equal to the hydroxyl ion
concentration, each is equal to 10^-7. That's where the pH of 7 comes
in.

If the solution is acidic, that means [H] [OH] and [H] 10^-7. For
example in a very acidic solution [H] could be 10^-2, which is
considerably greater than 10^-7. That would give you a pH of 2.



Bob

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On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:54:32 GMT, (Bob) wrote:

A pH or minus 4.5 or -4.5?

[H] = 10^pH.

FUK! I can't even typo worth a goddam.

I meant

[H] = 10^-pH.

And yes, in principle one could have a negative pH. That just means
that the hydrogen ion concentration is greater than 1 mole per liter.

I believe water itself has a concentration of 18 moles per liter, so I
suppose that 1 mole per liter would mean about 1 part in 18 of the
water molecules is ionized.

I do not know if the strongest acids known to man can reach that
level, but who knows what it's like elsewhere in the Universe.

Actually I don't remember enough chemistry to be commenting.

Bob

--

"America Online said it scanned 40 million e-mail attachments
on Wednesday - about four times the average daily volume - and
found more than 23 million copies of the Sobig.F virus."

Consider yourself fortunate if your email address is not
in someone's address book on AOL. Consider yourself even
more fortunate if you do not know anyone who uses AOL.